Mainstream Muslims Finally Take on Extremists

[Sbane]

It's a good start.  Hopefully, they'll repent and come to know the true God of the Bible.

Disgusting.

[Sbane]

Advocating Sharia law, anti-Semitism, anti-Americanism, anti-democracy/pro-theocracy, violence against cartoonists, chopping hands off for stealing, nah, that's unacceptable, period.

Yes, I agree with this. I just disagree with the implication that this means we need to go to war against "Islamic values". There are plenty of muslims out there who don't believe in that stuff. Indonesia or Bangladesh doesn't do most of what you listed. India has one of the largest populations of muslims and they don't advocate the things you listed, although India does have sharia law for muslims (which I think is a travesty and should be changed but that's a discussion for another thread). It's just not helpful to go on a crusade against "islamic values".

[Sbane]

Advocating Sharia law, anti-Semitism, anti-Americanism, anti-democracy/pro-theocracy, violence against cartoonists, chopping hands off for stealing, nah, that's unacceptable, period.

Yes, I agree with this. I just disagree with the implication that this means we need to go to war against "Islamic values". There are plenty of muslims out there who don't believe in that stuff.

1.5 billion Muslims or something.  Plenty can be totally cool and it doesn't really fix the problem.  There could be 100,000,000 Muslims who are basically liberal, cosmopolitan people, that leaves 1.4 billion who hold problematic views. 

Indonesia or Bangladesh doesn't do most of what you listed.  India has one of the largest populations of muslims and they don't advocate the things you listed, although India does have sharia law for muslims (which I think is a travesty and should be changed but that's a discussion for another thread). It's just not helpful to go on a crusade against "islamic values".

Again, you can't argue in favor Islam by looking at the exceptions or the least Islamic countries. 

There also are extremists in India, Indonesia and Bangladesh.  This guy is a popular Indian Muslim speaker.  He supports the death penalty for apostates, says "Muslims can have sex with female slaves" and said the following

You must be logged in to read this quote.

So, you would say he's totally fine because he's Indian?  What about the Indonesian Al Qaeda affiliates, or the Bangladeshis who have murdered atheist bloggers?  How about them?

Of course I don't agree with this Zakir Naik fellow. What he says is deplorable. And of course there are extremists in Bangladesh and Indonesia as well. That being said, they aren't causing the sort of global issues we see stemming out of the middle east.

I just think you are going at this the wrong way. You are attacking Islam in general when you need to attack the violent extremism within it. If you think fighting 1.5 billion people is the way to go, then you are entitled to your opinion, but I think it is foolish. Muslims around the world, even in places like Indonesia or Bangladesh may be "backwards" but for the most part they aren't causing any trouble in the west. Why antagonize them when ISIS is the problem? Fundamentalist Islam is just one ingredient in the mix that leads to ISIS/Al qaeda etc. If your goal is to turn the muslim world into a liberal democracy, then that is foolish. You don't need to turn the middle east into the next San Francisco in order to stop violent extremists like ISIS.

Also, this is my opinion as to what to do about radical Islam/Isis/violent extremism in general. If you want my opinion about Islam in India, I think sharia law should be phased out and replaced with a liberal, secular uniform civil code for all Indians regardless of religion. Of course some people might say I am a BJP supporting fanatic Hindu for saying that.......

[Sbane]

Of course I don't agree with this Zakir Naik fellow. What he says is deplorable. And of course there are extremists in Bangladesh and Indonesia as well. That being said, they aren't causing the sort of global issues we see stemming out of the middle east.

So, when an Indian Muslim broadcasts to British Muslims, radicalizes them and they join ISIS, that's not an issue?  We live in a globalized world now.  We shouldn't let anyone get off spewing hateful, evil bullsh**t.  Nobody should be able to hide behind religion to say horrible, evil things.

I just think you are going at this the wrong way. You are attacking Islam in general when you need to attack the violent extremism within it.

No, read what I've actually written.  I just don't feel the need to constantly bend myself over backwards to defend Islam.

If you think fighting 1.5 billion people is the way to go, then you are entitled to your opinion, but I think it is foolish. Muslims around the world, even in places like Indonesia or Bangladesh may be "backwards" but for the most part they aren't causing any trouble in the west.

When did I say we should fight every Muslim?  Never said it.  You're blatantly distorting my points.  And, again, globalization and solidarity.  If people accept rule of law, feminism and secularism, the world will be a better place.  They are causing trouble in the west too.  Terrorist attacks, ruining their home countries and causing refugees to flood around the world, destabilizing the world, etc.  And, idea cross borders now.  The internet is a thing. 

Why antagonize them when ISIS is the problem? Fundamentalist Islam is just one ingredient in the mix that leads to ISIS/Al qaeda etc. If your goal is to turn the muslim world into a liberal democracy, then that is foolish. You don't need to turn the middle east into the next San Francisco in order to stop violent extremists like ISIS.

This is just a grab bag of the old muddy the waters trick. 

1.  You have to antagonize people to create social change.  That's the only way you change people's minds. 
2.  How do we keep our values and not antagonize Muslim fundamentalists? 
3.  If someone says, "democracy is evil," how is that not a problem? 
4.  Fundamentalist Islam is obviously the key ingredient in ISIS, give me a break.  And, why not try to stop every ingredient in creating ISIS? 

Also, this is my opinion as to what to do about radical Islam/Isis/violent extremism in general. If you want my opinion about Islam in India, I think sharia law should be phased out and replaced with a liberal, secular uniform civil code for all Indians regardless of religion. Of course some people might say I am a BJP supporting fanatic Hindu for saying that.......

No, that's common sense for India and every country.

Do you not believe in free speech? Do you not think the preacher should be able to say what he wants? You and me can both agree what he says is disgusting, but why should we have the right to stop him from saying it? And if we have the right to stop someone from doing something we find offensive, then why shouldn't Muslims have the right to stop an artist from drawing the Prophet Muhammad?

I might be more of a pessimist than you, but I don't see the muslim world getting anymore "civilized". I just point out that there are countries that are majority muslim who don't cause any problems and some that do. You yourself have pointed out fundamentalist Islam is widespread in both those sorts of places. So why is one violent and the other not?

[Sbane]

Do you not believe in free speech? Do you not think the preacher should be able to say what he wants? You and me can both agree what he says is disgusting, but why should we have the right to stop him from saying it? And if we have the right to stop someone from doing something we find offensive, then why shouldn't Muslims have the right to stop an artist from drawing the Prophet Muhammad?

To answer your stupid question, the response is not to ban speech.  It's to highlight how stupid it is and refute it.  We engage in a dialog with Muslims, we use argument, humor, satire and criticism to get them to abandon extremist positions and harmful ideas.  We don't ignore and respect their beliefs, we actually listen and we communicate why things like cutting people's hands off for stealing are barbaric.

So who doesn't already condemn the sort of things this preacher says? I don't think even your most wishy washy liberal will try to "understand" why this preacher might feel this way. I just don't think the correct response to people like the preacher is to go on a crusade against "islamic values".

[Sbane]

Do you not believe in free speech? Do you not think the preacher should be able to say what he wants? You and me can both agree what he says is disgusting, but why should we have the right to stop him from saying it? And if we have the right to stop someone from doing something we find offensive, then why shouldn't Muslims have the right to stop an artist from drawing the Prophet Muhammad?

To answer your stupid question, the response is not to ban speech.  It's to highlight how stupid it is and refute it.  We engage in a dialog with Muslims, we use argument, humor, satire and criticism to get them to abandon extremist positions and harmful ideas.  We don't ignore and respect their beliefs, we actually listen and we communicate why things like cutting people's hands off for stealing are barbaric.

So who doesn't already condemn the sort of things this preacher says? I don't think even your most wishy washy liberal will try to "understand" why this preacher might feel this way. I just don't think the correct response to people like the preacher is to go on a crusade against "islamic values".

The silence is deafening.  Or, more often, the apologizing and explaining away Islam's problems is deafening.  You provide cover for guys like him.  You earlier said, "Islam in India is peaceful and liberal."  Now, you're like, "well, not him."  You're basically saying, "Islam is great, except for the bad parts."  That goes for anything, it's weak, cowardly nonsense. 

Islam in India is more or less peaceful. I separate violent Islamists from Islam in general, which can include people who are very conservative and may hold disgusting views. You seem to want to turn the middle east and the muslim world into some liberal utopia. That is a ridiculous goal to have. You keep on saying we cannot solve the ISIS/violent Islamic extremism problem without wholesale reform of "islamic values" but you yourself state these "islamic values" are widespread in peaceful parts of the muslim world. It is quite obvious these "islamic values" are not the only ingredient leading to extremism.

Also I don't have any interest in defending Islam. I just think your plan is extremely foolish. It is the George W Bush sort of mentality. I am a realistic pessimist and I want to solve the problem of ISIS, not spread democracy/liberalism/lollipops and gumdrops across the middle east.

[Sbane]

This is a headline I've been waiting a long time to see, if only to prove that not all Muslims support terrorism.

All muslims support terrorism just like all christians support shooting up planned parenthoood clinics, right?

[Sbane]

The problem with your proposal is that you seem to think it will work. You are free to criticize Islam, but if you think that will somehow end well then you are completely delusional. I am not strawmanning you when I say you want war with 1.5 billion human beings. I just see that as the ultimate result of your "plan". Westerners aren't going to be able to modernize the middle east/muslim world. It has to be an organic, internal movement. The west has no role to play in that. The west can only make things worse, not better.

[Sbane]

Who the hell even defends people like that? Specific examples please.