Palestinian right of return

[Indy Texas]

Do Israeli citizens from Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Jordan, S.Arabia, Iran, Libya, Tunisia..(you get the idea) get "monetary compensation" in this scheme of yours?


(and does your lists refer to all their descendants too?  I assume so, cause "special", if so, add that to the question too)

Well, they have citizenship and have not been living in refugee camps for the time being. Their situation is very different. A Jew who was expelled from an Arab country or left voluntarily and moved to Israel did not face anywhere near the loss of economic and social capital that a Palestinian who was expelled from Israel [or left voluntarily, you seem to have missed part here] to a neighboring country has faced.

Indeed, and it seems like nobody involved has learned a damn thing from this situation.  Do you think Jordan, Lebanon, etc would be better off today had they had been as accepting as Israel?  Would the refugees be better off?

(and I'm going to need a cite that the average Palestinian lost more "economic and social capital" when forced to flee than the average Jew that was forced to flee, that seems dubious)

I'm not sure why you think Jordan or Lebanon are under any obligation to accept Palestinian refugees unconditionally. Israel wanted to get as many Mizrahi Jews into the country as possible to tilt the demographic scales in their favor. The Mizrahi Jews, in return, got citizenship and a crash course in living in a developed country. Conversely, having a bunch of Palestinians suddenly move in didn't really fit with Jordan or Lebanon's long-term goals. Do you think if Hungary invaded Austria, Germany should simply let all the Austrians come live in Germany since they're all German-speaking? That's the kind of flawed logic you're using here. You think it's perfectly reasonable for a Syrian Jew to throw a Palestinian Muslim out of their house and for the Palestinian Muslim to simply shrug and go live in Syria. The Syrian Jew has no inherent business living in Israel and the Palestinian Muslim has no inherent business living in Syria.

[MalaspinaGold]

Do Israeli citizens from Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Jordan, S.Arabia, Iran, Libya, Tunisia..(you get the idea) get "monetary compensation" in this scheme of yours?


(and does your lists refer to all their descendants too?  I assume so, cause "special", if so, add that to the question too)

Well, they have citizenship and have not been living in refugee camps for the time being. Their situation is very different. A Jew who was expelled from an Arab country or left voluntarily and moved to Israel did not face anywhere near the loss of economic and social capital that a Palestinian who was expelled from Israel [or left voluntarily, you seem to have missed part here] to a neighboring country has faced.

Indeed, and it seems like nobody involved has learned a damn thing from this situation.  Do you think Jordan, Lebanon, etc would be better off today had they had been as accepting as Israel?  Would the refugees be better off?

(and I'm going to need a cite that the average Palestinian lost more "economic and social capital" when forced to flee than the average Jew that was forced to flee, that seems dubious)

I'm not sure why you think Jordan or Lebanon are under any obligation to accept Palestinian refugees unconditionally. Israel wanted to get as many Mizrahi Jews into the country as possible to tilt the demographic scales in their favor. The Mizrahi Jews, in return, got citizenship and a crash course in living in a developed country. Conversely, having a bunch of Palestinians suddenly move in didn't really fit with Jordan or Lebanon's long-term goals. Do you think if Hungary invaded Austria, Germany should simply let all the Austrians come live in Germany since they're all German-speaking? That's the kind of flawed logic you're using here. You think it's perfectly reasonable for a Syrian Jew to throw a Palestinian Muslim out of their house and for the Palestinian Muslim to simply shrug and go live in Syria. The Syrian Jew has no inherent business living in Israel and the Palestinian Muslim has no inherent business living in Syria.

no

[dead0man]

Do you think if Hungary invaded Austria, Germany should simply let all the Austrians come live in Germany since they're all German-speaking?

If the Austrians have no place to go and the Germans cared about them, yes.  Keeping them in camps for several generations obviously wouldn't be the way to go.  It doesn't sound like a good idea, and the facts bare that out.

[politicus]

Both Lebanon and Jordan are countries with a delicate ethnic balance and small populations. Jordan is majority Palestinian no matter what, so giving citizenship to the last 400 000 may be reasonable, although obviously not something the Bedouin descendants would like. Lebanon is a different story. It will make it even harder for the country to function if you give citizen rights to the Palestinians. Resettlement would be preferable - the question is of course where.

You also set a dangerous precedent if countries that take in refugees are forced to make them citizens later on. If accepted as the norm that will increase the number of countries that simply refuse to take any refugees in the first place.

[MalaspinaGold]

Both Lebanon and Jordan are countries with a delicate ethnic balance and small populations. Jordan is majority Palestinian no matter what, so giving citizenship to the last 400 000 may be reasonable, although obviously not something the Bedouin descendants would like. Lebanon is a different story. It will make it even harder for the country to function if you give citizen rights to the Palestinians. Resettlement would be preferable - the question is of course where.

You also set a dangerous precedent if countries that take in refugees are forced to make them citizens later on. If accepted as the norm that will increase the number of countries that simply refuse to take any refugees in the first place.

How about in Palestine?

[Famous Mortimer]

Do Israeli citizens from Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Jordan, S.Arabia, Iran, Libya, Tunisia..(you get the idea) get "monetary compensation" in this scheme of yours?


(and does your lists refer to all their descendants too?  I assume so, cause "special", if so, add that to the question too)

Well, they have citizenship and have not been living in refugee camps for the time being. Their situation is very different. A Jew who was expelled from an Arab country or left voluntarily and moved to Israel did not face anywhere near the loss of economic and social capital that a Palestinian who was expelled from Israel [or left voluntarily, you seem to have missed part here] to a neighboring country has faced.

Indeed, and it seems like nobody involved has learned a damn thing from this situation.  Do you think Jordan, Lebanon, etc would be better off today had they had been as accepting as Israel?  Would the refugees be better off?

(and I'm going to need a cite that the average Palestinian lost more "economic and social capital" when forced to flee than the average Jew that was forced to flee, that seems dubious)

I'm not sure why you think Jordan or Lebanon are under any obligation to accept Palestinian refugees unconditionally.

Because most of the people were born within their borders, lived their whole life in their borders, possibly going back multiple generations.

[politicus]

Both Lebanon and Jordan are countries with a delicate ethnic balance and small populations. Jordan is majority Palestinian no matter what, so giving citizenship to the last 400 000 may be reasonable, although obviously not something the Bedouin descendants would like. Lebanon is a different story. It will make it even harder for the country to function if you give citizen rights to the Palestinians. Resettlement would be preferable - the question is of course where.

You also set a dangerous precedent if countries that take in refugees are forced to make them citizens later on. If accepted as the norm that will increase the number of countries that simply refuse to take any refugees in the first place.

How about in Palestine?

Dunno, the place is pretty packed as it is

[MalaspinaGold]

Both Lebanon and Jordan are countries with a delicate ethnic balance and small populations. Jordan is majority Palestinian no matter what, so giving citizenship to the last 400 000 may be reasonable, although obviously not something the Bedouin descendants would like. Lebanon is a different story. It will make it even harder for the country to function if you give citizen rights to the Palestinians. Resettlement would be preferable - the question is of course where.

You also set a dangerous precedent if countries that take in refugees are forced to make them citizens later on. If accepted as the norm that will increase the number of countries that simply refuse to take any refugees in the first place.

How about in Palestine?

Dunno, the place is pretty packed as it is

I mean people are calling for all 7 million to move to Israel so I think 1-2 million moving to Palestine is reasonable.

[DavidB.]

Both Lebanon and Jordan are countries with a delicate ethnic balance and small populations. Jordan is majority Palestinian no matter what, so giving citizenship to the last 400 000 may be reasonable, although obviously not something the Bedouin descendants would like. Lebanon is a different story. It will make it even harder for the country to function if you give citizen rights to the Palestinians. Resettlement would be preferable - the question is of course where.

You also set a dangerous precedent if countries that take in refugees are forced to make them citizens later on. If accepted as the norm that will increase the number of countries that simply refuse to take any refugees in the first place.

How about in Palestine?

Dunno, the place is pretty packed as it is

I mean people are calling for all 7 million to move to Israel so I think 1-2 million moving to Palestine is reasonable.

Excellent idea. That will make the area a lot more stable...

[MalaspinaGold]

Both Lebanon and Jordan are countries with a delicate ethnic balance and small populations. Jordan is majority Palestinian no matter what, so giving citizenship to the last 400 000 may be reasonable, although obviously not something the Bedouin descendants would like. Lebanon is a different story. It will make it even harder for the country to function if you give citizen rights to the Palestinians. Resettlement would be preferable - the question is of course where.

You also set a dangerous precedent if countries that take in refugees are forced to make them citizens later on. If accepted as the norm that will increase the number of countries that simply refuse to take any refugees in the first place.

How about in Palestine?

Dunno, the place is pretty packed as it is

I mean people are calling for all 7 million to move to Israel so I think 1-2 million moving to Palestine is reasonable.

Excellent idea. That will make the area a lot more stable...

Keep in mind I never supported the return of 7 million to Israel proper.

[DavidB.]

Both Lebanon and Jordan are countries with a delicate ethnic balance and small populations. Jordan is majority Palestinian no matter what, so giving citizenship to the last 400 000 may be reasonable, although obviously not something the Bedouin descendants would like. Lebanon is a different story. It will make it even harder for the country to function if you give citizen rights to the Palestinians. Resettlement would be preferable - the question is of course where.

You also set a dangerous precedent if countries that take in refugees are forced to make them citizens later on. If accepted as the norm that will increase the number of countries that simply refuse to take any refugees in the first place.

How about in Palestine?

Dunno, the place is pretty packed as it is

I mean people are calling for all 7 million to move to Israel so I think 1-2 million moving to Palestine is reasonable.

Excellent idea. That will make the area a lot more stable...

Keep in mind I never supported the return of 7 million to Israel proper.

You stated that pretty clearly and I can read. Still, allowing 1-2 million more people - mostly poor and uneducated - to immigrate in a "country" that has really high unemployment, an extremely young population, and an unstable political situation (which would be the case even after some "peace treaty" would have been passed) wouldn't be the smartest move to preserve a precarious peace.

[MalaspinaGold]

I said some people think that, and since for some reason it's being bandied about like it's reasonable, they should also be able to talk about 1-2 million going to Palestine. I agree I could have phrased that better.

Those young poor uneducated ex-refugees are going to be going somewhere. I'm pretty sure Palestine is a bastion of stability compared to Lebanon or Syria. Ideally it would be best to phase out the camps over the course of 10 years or so.

[Zezano]

Every nation should control it's own immigration laws. If Israel wants to limit immigration to Jews they can. If the Palestinians had their own state they could have a right of return but a one state solution would be a demographic disaster and Israel would cease to exist.

[Kingpoleon]

A merging of the Iseael and Palestine would be acceptable. Aside from the fact that the "right of return" is hardly guaranteed, the two coming together with a stringent foreign security to stabilize the region would most definitely help. Palestinians would likely immigrate to Egypt and Jordan while still not being oppressed as the region stabilizes.

It's a win-win for both sides: A state for Palestinians without oppression, and the survival of the Israeli state.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

A merging of the Iseael and Palestine would be acceptable. Aside from the fact that the "right of return" is hardly guaranteed, the two coming together with a stringent foreign security to stabilize the region would most definitely help. Palestinians would likely immigrate to Egypt and Jordan while still not being oppressed as the region stabilizes.

It's a win-win for both sides: A state for Palestinians without oppression, and the survival of the Israeli state.

Why on earth would Palestinians in a functioning one-state solution voluntarily emigrate to economic basket cases that currently want them even less than the Zionists do now?  If anything, a functioning one-state solution would face immigration pressure from Egypt and Jordan, not the other way round.

[MalaspinaGold]

A merging of the Iseael and Palestine would be acceptable. Aside from the fact that the "right of return" is hardly guaranteed, the two coming together with a stringent foreign security to stabilize the region would most definitely help. Palestinians would likely immigrate to Egypt and Jordan while still not being oppressed as the region stabilizes.

It's a win-win for both sides: A state for Palestinians without oppression, and the survival of the Israeli state.

Why on earth would Palestinians in a functioning one-state solution voluntarily emigrate to economic basket cases that currently want them even less than the Zionists do now?  If anything, a functioning one-state solution would face immigration pressure from Egypt and Jordan, not the other way round.

Oxymoron, etc.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

A merging of the Iseael and Palestine would be acceptable. Aside from the fact that the "right of return" is hardly guaranteed, the two coming together with a stringent foreign security to stabilize the region would most definitely help. Palestinians would likely immigrate to Egypt and Jordan while still not being oppressed as the region stabilizes.

It's a win-win for both sides: A state for Palestinians without oppression, and the survival of the Israeli state.

Why on earth would Palestinians in a functioning one-state solution voluntarily emigrate to economic basket cases that currently want them even less than the Zionists do now?  If anything, a functioning one-state solution would face immigration pressure from Egypt and Jordan, not the other way round.

Oxymoron, etc.

Agreed, but I wanted to address only one absurdity so I chose the novel one of people moving away if there was a working one-state solution.