Chancellor Kern: UK should pay 60 Bio. € (Br)exit-fee
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  Chancellor Kern: UK should pay 60 Bio. € (Br)exit-fee
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Author Topic: Chancellor Kern: UK should pay 60 Bio. € (Br)exit-fee  (Read 1961 times)
Tender Branson
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« on: February 24, 2017, 07:55:56 AM »

He's not wrong. Divorces are pretty costly most of the time. Don't know how May will sell this to British voters, but I've read a similar story recently in the "Economist":

U.K. Faces 60 Billion-Euro Brexit Bill, Austrian Leader Says

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https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-02-23/u-k-faces-60-billion-euro-brexit-bill-austrian-chancellor-says
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DavidB.
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« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2017, 10:49:34 PM »
« Edited: March 05, 2017, 07:33:58 AM by Kalwejt »

And why, exactly, should this be the case, other than to punish the Brits for leaving the project of the euroreligious and to set an example to other member states that the EU is like Hotel California?
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Nathan
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« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2017, 11:00:13 PM »

I understand that there are cogent economic reasons for this but politics being what it is it just looks petty and needlessly punitive.
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Alex
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« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2017, 11:43:47 PM »

I agree with Nathan
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2017, 01:24:32 AM »

That's not an exclusively Austrian sentiment though.

Most other EU countries also think that the UK should be billed significantly for leaving the EU.

They already get a huge rebate in the 1980s, so a Brexit bill would be logical.

The Brits simply cannot always get what they want. Elections (and this was a pretty stupid one) have consequences and they need to pay for leaving the club, IMO.
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« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2017, 02:03:10 AM »
« Edited: February 25, 2017, 02:08:38 AM by Make Pepe Apolitical Again »

Again, I understand that there are actual economic reasons for this, but framing it as "they need to pay for leaving the club" makes the EU sound like a protection racket.
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2017, 02:12:33 AM »

The Brits have made budgetary (and other) commitments for the next 5 years, which are basically a contract. Now that they hastily decided to pull out, other countries will likely have to pay more into the EU budget and other projects. The UK simply cannot pull out of the club for free. The EU would simply fold here, which would be a shame. The UK needs to pay !
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2017, 02:35:08 AM »

I'm the first to say that leaving the EU must have consequences and that the UK can't expect to pull out of the things they don't like while keeping all the things they like. But framing this in terms of "punishing" the UK is utterly counterproductive and will only play to the Tories' advantages, by helping them deflect the blame for Brexit's consequences on muh evil brussels Eurocrats, rather than on their own lies.

Voters need to see that their choice is respected - and all the repercussions from Brexit are the result of this choice, not some kind of revenge from spiteful technocratic overlords.
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windjammer
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« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2017, 07:35:52 AM »

Good let's punish them
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Ray Goldfield
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« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2017, 08:28:02 AM »

Alternatively, how about the UK does what they want and you get nothing?
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ApatheticAustrian
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« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2017, 10:00:35 AM »

Alternatively, how about the UK does what they want and you get nothing?

if they order something, they must pay for it. the eu is not a "day to day"-project.
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2017, 10:07:01 AM »

Alternatively, how about the UK does what they want and you get nothing?

That's not how things work among mature politicians (excl. your childish President).

There needs to be some sort of agreement in which the UK pays a certain fee to leave the union, so that they can get fitting trade deals after they have exited. Otherwise, if they are too selfish the UK could get punished again later and nobody really wants that (on both sides).
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Hnv1
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« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2017, 10:13:11 AM »

Well, pay for what? if it is money received from the EU since the referendum then yes they should bring it back. Other than that I don't see what they should pay for exactly
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2017, 10:23:16 AM »

Well, pay for what? if it is money received from the EU since the referendum then yes they should bring it back. Other than that I don't see what they should pay for exactly

Previously mentioned budgetary positions and projects over the next few years, to which the UK has committed itself. Plus a lot of pension payments etc.

Anyway, the cost doesn't necessarily have to be 60 Bio. €, they could also be lower (that's just a starting point based on the UK's current liabilities within the EU).

Part of a comprehensive deal could also be a lower Brexit fee, but better trade conditions etc.

Or the EU cuts down their future budget, to avoid a shortfall causes by the UK not paying any longer, which would also be a nice option.
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Diouf
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« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2017, 11:27:15 AM »

FT reported yesterday that Germany, Italy and France of course also supports this as Britain can't run away from the bill. I can't imagine that many EU countries would not support this as the starting position at least. There's no real sense in making this bill lower than it should be in some attempt to look better in the negotiations. Everything the EU does will be seen as a punishment anyway in the British press, and I think they can expext reasonable understanding in the populations of the other 27 countries that Britain cannot escape the bill.

For some specific information of the parts of the bill, you can look at CER:

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http://www.cer.org.uk/publications/archive/policy-brief/2017/%E2%82%AC60-billion-brexit-bill-how-disentangle-britain-eu-budget
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« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2017, 11:40:25 AM »

Alternatively, how about the UK does what they want and you get nothing?

if they order something, they must pay for it. the eu is not a "day to day"-project.

Yes. EU was a longterm committment from which the UK benefited over decades. They can't expect they can just say "screw you guys, I'm taking my ball home".
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« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2017, 02:12:37 PM »

The EU should consider imposing sanctions on the UK.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2017, 04:46:23 PM »

Alternatively, how about the UK does what they want and you get nothing?

That's not how things work among mature politicians (excl. your childish President).

There needs to be some sort of agreement in which the UK pays a certain fee to leave the union, so that they can get fitting trade deals after they have exited. Otherwise, if they are too selfish the UK could get punished again later and nobody really wants that (on both sides).

"Sometimes, it pays to be a little wild" - Donald J. Trump, mid 1980's.
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Tetro Kornbluth
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« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2017, 05:16:28 PM »

They should at least having the f-cking dignity to pay for the Customs Posts we are going to have to put up without actually wanting it, and in violation of our constitution, in spirit at least.
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2017, 05:27:18 PM »

Alternatively, how about the UK does what they want and you get nothing?

     This seems more likely than the wishful thinking displayed by the liberal internationalists in this thread, given the success Theresa May has had in placing Britain in a position of strength. By issuing the threat of making her nation a tax haven, the EU bureaucrats are desperate to meet her demands. It's quite brilliant, really.
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Tetro Kornbluth
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« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2017, 05:30:27 PM »

Alternatively, how about the UK does what they want and you get nothing?

     This seems more likely than the wishful thinking displayed by the liberal internationalists in this thread, given the success Theresa May has had in placing Britain in a position of strength. By issuing the threat of making her nation a tax haven, the EU bureaucrats are desperate to meet her demands. It's quite brilliant, really.

I'm sorry, but this is totally delusional.

For a start for the UK to become a serious tax haven they would have cut spending massively. Will this happen? Highly unlikely. Secondly, the EU can easily restrict access to the UK market for banks and individuals post-Brexit, that is in part what the debate about 'passporting' is about (and the EU already has its own tax havens like Liechtenstein, which the UK could never match). The UK is in an extremely weak position and there's no reason to think that the EU will roll over unless you are a deluded Brexiteer.
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2017, 12:54:48 AM »

Alternatively, how about the UK does what they want and you get nothing?

     This seems more likely than the wishful thinking displayed by the liberal internationalists in this thread, given the success Theresa May has had in placing Britain in a position of strength. By issuing the threat of making her nation a tax haven, the EU bureaucrats are desperate to meet her demands. It's quite brilliant, really.

I'm sorry, but this is totally delusional.

For a start for the UK to become a serious tax haven they would have cut spending massively. Will this happen? Highly unlikely. Secondly, the EU can easily restrict access to the UK market for banks and individuals post-Brexit, that is in part what the debate about 'passporting' is about (and the EU already has its own tax havens like Liechtenstein, which the UK could never match). The UK is in an extremely weak position and there's no reason to think that the EU will roll over unless you are a deluded Brexiteer.

     I saw plenty of concerned European leftists, but European leftists taking something seriously is probably evidence enough that it's delusional nonsense.
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IceAgeComing
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« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2017, 07:24:06 AM »

I've been working for the European Parliament and part of my job involves tracking the Brexit news - I have no inside information or anything but I think that I'm pretty well informed on the subject.

The fact is that the only real concessions that we've seen during this whole pre-article 50 period has been by the UK government: they spent months going on about how they could have both single market membership and controls on migration while the EU were saying "no; single market membership is linked to accepting the four freedoms".  Turns out that the EU position was firm (despite the UK government attempting to bribe some of the new member states by fiddling with the international aid budgets) and its been the UK who've had to change their position to accept reality.

Will it be that €60 billion figure?  I don't know: but I imagine that there'll have to be some kind of contributions in the short term for budget contributions that were already promised in the 2014 budget round - some of those like pension liabilities might end up lasting a fairly long time.  Then again there are assets held by the EU that the UK might try to claim to reduce those contributions, and that's usually the way that these things work: both sides have claims on assets but also responsibilities on shares of liabilities.  There's also the fact that the UK will want some kind of trade deal with the EU and probably also for positive relations with our near neighbours, and refusing to pay the money that we promised to pay would lead to none of that happening for a very long time - the "tax haven" stuff really wasn't seen in the EU as anything other than an empty threat.  There's also the political implications of that happening: its not like this was a landslide victory for leave and the hardest of hard Brexits where WTO membership wouldn't even by guaranteed (the EU have a veto right) would probably annoy a chunk of that leave support; the economic impact of it certainly would.
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Tetro Kornbluth
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« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2017, 09:49:40 AM »

Alternatively, how about the UK does what they want and you get nothing?

     This seems more likely than the wishful thinking displayed by the liberal internationalists in this thread, given the success Theresa May has had in placing Britain in a position of strength. By issuing the threat of making her nation a tax haven, the EU bureaucrats are desperate to meet her demands. It's quite brilliant, really.

I'm sorry, but this is totally delusional.

For a start for the UK to become a serious tax haven they would have cut spending massively. Will this happen? Highly unlikely. Secondly, the EU can easily restrict access to the UK market for banks and individuals post-Brexit, that is in part what the debate about 'passporting' is about (and the EU already has its own tax havens like Liechtenstein, which the UK could never match). The UK is in an extremely weak position and there's no reason to think that the EU will roll over unless you are a deluded Brexiteer.

     I saw plenty of concerned European leftists, but European leftists taking something seriously is probably evidence enough that it's delusional nonsense.

What the hell are you talking about?

There is no chance of the UK becoming a serious tax haven - it would have to compete with Liechtenstein for example. It's too big.
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parochial boy
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« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2017, 10:00:19 AM »

Alternatively, how about the UK does what they want and you get nothing?

     This seems more likely than the wishful thinking displayed by the liberal internationalists in this thread, given the success Theresa May has had in placing Britain in a position of strength. By issuing the threat of making her nation a tax haven, the EU bureaucrats are desperate to meet her demands. It's quite brilliant, really.

I'm sorry, but this is totally delusional.

For a start for the UK to become a serious tax haven they would have cut spending massively. Will this happen? Highly unlikely. Secondly, the EU can easily restrict access to the UK market for banks and individuals post-Brexit, that is in part what the debate about 'passporting' is about (and the EU already has its own tax havens like Liechtenstein, which the UK could never match). The UK is in an extremely weak position and there's no reason to think that the EU will roll over unless you are a deluded Brexiteer.

     I saw plenty of concerned European leftists, but European leftists taking something seriously is probably evidence enough that it's delusional nonsense.

What the hell are you talking about?

There is no chance of the UK becoming a serious tax haven - it would have to compete with Liechtenstein for example. It's too big.

In many ways it already is. It is really shoddy in terms of transparency, has a low corporate tax rate, has the whole non-dom farce and the City of London is basically the heart of the international tax avoidance network.

Of course though, like you said, it has way to many spending commitments (you know welfare, universities, schools, the NHS and all that yucky stuff) to match Liechtenstein's tax rates.

I mean, UK public spending is about 43% of GDP. If it wanted to even match Switzerland (which is still not anywhere close to Liechtenstein levels), where public spending is more like 34% of GDP, it would basically have to cut spending by the equivalent of the whole NHS. Imagine how that goes down.
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