Carson:Let's talk less about anti-gay bigotry, more about anti-Christian bigotry

[Fuzzy Bear]

Just because folks like myself and CountryClassSF oppose gay marriage doesn't mean we want the LGBT community dead. ISIS and those who would defenestrate gays in the Middle East have a twisted and perverse view of who God really is. Until the left is willing to truly address the ISIS/Sharia persecution against non-Muslims in countries where Islamic law is cruel and supreme, we should stop any sort of dialogue on the marriage issue here.

Don't pretend you give a sh!t about LGBT rights or the community.

What is going on in other countries (not just Sharia Law countries) is that homosexuals are actively persecuted, by law and by mob.  Not just in Arabic and Muslim nations, but in Russia (most notably) are there anti-homosexual laws that institute Draconian penalties for homosexual practices and blatantly look the other way at vigilantes and mobs taking matters into their own hands and threatening, using violence against, and even killing homosexuals just for being homosexuals.

What is going on in America is something quite different.  What is going on in America is an organized campaign by homosexuals and their supporters to publicly shame and ostracize Christians to the point where they will deny things they believe (that homosexuality is a sin, and that Scripture plainly says so), force them to say things that they DON'T believe (that homosexuality, and homosexual marriage is OK in the eyes of God) and require them to participate in rituals they are morally opposed to (e.g. making wedding cakes for same sex weddings) under threats of lawsuits and "anti-discrimination" laws.  (I sincerely wonder what the folks calling wrath down on the cake shop proprietor in Indiana if he refused to provide decorations or a special cake for some sort of KKK or Nazi Party event.)  

The "gay rights" movement isn't for "rights"; it's a demand that Christians publicly (A) cease and desist the preaching and teaching of those parts of Scripture that define acceptable and unacceptable sexuality and (B) acknowledge that their lifestyle choices are "as good" as heterosexual lifestyles in the eyes of God, with the threat of retribution if these demands are not met.  It's not about "marriage equality"; it's about redefining marriage for the purpose of receiving ratification for their lifestyle.  It's also about redefining "tolerance".  It's no longer enough to "live and let live"; it's now about acknowledging how every lifestyle choice is equally valid.  

I'm not for government jackboots kicking bedroom doors open, I'm not for boycotting Disney World for hosting a Gay Pride Day (and things of that nature), and I'm not for employers being able to know every detail of your private life before hiring you (with some exceptions) outside of a standard background check.  But I'm also against coercing people into silence, and this is something the homosexual movement is OK with.  They WANT Christians to both shut up AND go away, in that order.  I'm always willing to live and let live (and be hired and be evaluated on the job on the basis of qualifications and performance) without regard to people's private lives.  I'm not willing to allow the coercion and the cries of "homophobe" to be conducted without a reasonable response.

[SUSAN CRUSHBONE]

Just because folks like myself and CountryClassSF oppose gay marriage doesn't mean we want the LGBT community dead. ISIS and those who would defenestrate gays in the Middle East have a twisted and perverse view of who God really is. Until the left is willing to truly address the ISIS/Sharia persecution against non-Muslims in countries where Islamic law is cruel and supreme, we should stop any sort of dialogue on the marriage issue here.

Don't pretend you give a sh!t about LGBT rights or the community.

What is going on in other countries (not just Sharia Law countries) is that homosexuals are actively persecuted, by law and by mob.  Not just in Arabic and Muslim nations, but in Russia (most notably) are there anti-homosexual laws that institute Draconian penalties for homosexual practices and blatantly look the other way at vigilantes and mobs taking matters into their own hands and threatening, using violence against, and even killing homosexuals just for being homosexuals.

What is going on in America is something quite different.  What is going on in America is an organized campaign by homosexuals and their supporters to publicly shame and ostracize Christians to the point where they will deny things they believe (that homosexuality is a sin, and that Scripture plainly says so), force them to say things that they DON'T believe (that homosexuality, and homosexual marriage is OK in the eyes of God) and require them to participate in rituals they are morally opposed to (e.g. making wedding cakes for same sex weddings) under threats of lawsuits and "anti-discrimination" laws.  (I sincerely wonder what the folks calling wrath down on the cake shop proprietor in Indiana if he refused to provide decorations or a special cake for some sort of KKK or Nazi Party event.) 

The "gay rights" movement isn't for "rights"; it's a demand that Christians publicly (A) cease and desist the preaching and teaching of those parts of Scripture that define acceptable and unacceptable sexuality and (B) acknowledge that their lifestyle choices are "as good" as heterosexual lifestyles in the eyes of God, with the threat of retribution if these demands are not met.  It's not about "marriage equality"; it's about redefining marriage for the purpose of receiving ratification for their lifestyle.  It's also about redefining "tolerance".  It's no longer enough to "live and let live"; it's now about acknowledging how every lifestyle choice is equally valid. 

I'm not for government jackboots kicking bedroom doors open, and I'm not for employers being able to know every detail of your private life before hiring you (with some exceptions) outside of a standard background check.  But I'm also against coercing people into silence, and this is something the homosexual movement is OK with.  They WANT Christians to both shut up AND go away, in that order.  I'm always willing to live and let live (and be hired and be evaluated on the job on the basis of qualifications and performance) without regard to people's private lives.  I'm not willing to allow the coercion and the cries of "homophobe" to be conducted without a reasonable response.

[Torie]

"(that homosexuality is a sin, and that Scripture plainly says so), force them to say things that they DON'T believe (that homosexuality, and homosexual marriage is OK in the eyes of God)"

Anyone supporting LGBT equality and rights, and  hoping in a more perfect world, that they will be treated just like anyone else, and their sexual preferences will be totally irrelevant to anything in the public sphere and square, would be foolish to expect those with deep religious convictions to change their views, or demand such. And respect for 1st amendment rights should be accorded to all. But hopefully through persuasion and argument, and the ballot box, and social interactions, and so forth, at the end of the day, respect for such rights and so forth, in the public square, will be deemed what is only right and decent, and those with such religious views to the contrary, will have very little influence, and be viewed as misguided - not evil, if sincere in their religious belief - just misguided. I am quite confident that is where we will end up, and sooner rather than later.

[Fuzzy Bear]

"(that homosexuality is a sin, and that Scripture plainly says so), force them to say things that they DON'T believe (that homosexuality, and homosexual marriage is OK in the eyes of God)"

Anyone supporting LGBT equality and rights, and  hoping in a more perfect world, that they will be treated just like anyone else, and their sexual preferences will be totally irrelevant to anything in the public sphere and square, would be foolish to expect those with deep religious convictions to change their views, or demand such. And respect for 1st amendment rights should be accorded to all. But hopefully through persuasion and argument, and the ballot box, and social interactions, and so forth, at the end of the day, respect for such rights and so forth, in the public square, will be deemed what is only right and decent, and those with such religious views to the contrary, will have very little influence, and be viewed as misguided - not evil, if sincere in their religious belief - just misguided. I am quite confident that is where we will end up, and sooner rather than later.

The body of Scripture that defines homosexual practice as sin is clear and unmistakable.  Indeed, the only sexual activity sanctioned by God in Scripture is sexual activity between a man and his (female) wife or a woman and her (male) husband.  I don't think that anyone can plausibly deny this.  If you want to say that the Bible is a bunch of horse manure and fairy tales, have at it.  If you want to say that the Bible is a cool book, but not God's Infallible Word, then have at that as well.  I have respect for these points of view, much as I disagree with them.  What I don't have respect for is folks who insist Scripture says something else than what it.

Scripture also commands Christians "Insofar as it is possible with you, live in peace with all men."  The idea that all Christians are like the Westboro Baptist Church nut jobs is lunacy.  It is possible for Christians to live in peace with unbelievers and sinners, and that includes homosexuals, and to treat them with the Love of Christ.  And that does not mean harassing them with Evangelism and Bible-quoting, not treating them fairly on the job, etc.  It does not mean turning their children against them for their lifestyle; they are not the only parents who, from a Biblical perspective, are living a lifestyle out of conformity with God' Word.  But living in peace means recognizing that as a Christian, I cannot condone the homosexual lifestyle, and there's a difference between being diplomatically silent and allowing people to live their own lives and voicing a sentiment that is not only something I do not believe, but something that is in opposition to Scripture.  A certain amount of "tolerance" that doesn't involve coercion of others requires living with the knowledge that everyone doesn't buy into your lifestyle choices and doesn't personally condone them.  Lots of folks won't condone this post, or my thinking.  I'd rather be approved of than not approved of, but I can disapprove of others and respect their rights at the same time.