Ohio leg. passes 6-week abortion ban - VETOED by Kasich; 20-week bill signed

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/ohio-moves-to-ban-abortion-six-weeks-after-conception_us_58480c29e4b08c82e888e4fe

Here's the trigger to overturn roe. Really surprised they're doing this while the supreme Court still has a pro-choice majority.

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/ohio-moves-to-ban-abortion-six-weeks-after-conception_us_58480c29e4b08c82e888e4fe

Here's the trigger to overturn roe. Really surprised they're doing this while the supreme Court still has a pro-choice majority.

Your going to be disappointed.

Honestly, with this sort of timing, probably. If I was Kasich I would veto this for strategic reasons.

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

keep telling us the war on women isn't real, guys

My position on abortion would be the same if men got pregnant instead of women.

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

Stupid and unnecessary and it will be shot down quickly enough.

Yep.  The vast majority of people are sympathetic to limiting late-term abortions with the well-being of the fetus being their motivating factor ... but this is a ridiculous bill.  Even your standard Republican who opposes Roe v. Wade seems to be fine with an exception for rape, incest or AT LEAST life of the mother.

The article does not explicitly say whether a life exception is included or not. Obviously a life exception is a precondition to getting my support for this (As I said, I would veto this for strategic reasons regardless).

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

Stupid and unnecessary and it will be shot down quickly enough.

Yep.  The vast majority of people are sympathetic to limiting late-term abortions with the well-being of the fetus being their motivating factor ... but this is a ridiculous bill.  Even your standard Republican who opposes Roe v. Wade seems to be fine with an exception for rape, incest or AT LEAST life of the mother.

The article does not explicitly say whether a life exception is included or not. Obviously a life exception is a precondition to getting my support for this (As I said, I would veto this for strategic reasons regardless).

Rape and incest aren't good enough excuses for you, huh?

I would sign a bill with such exceptions, but I would not have them in my ideal bill. I haven't really heard a good justification why rape or incest justifies abortion, if we take the premise that abortion is a morally wrong action. What I've heard is 1) increased risk of severe fetal abnormalities - which I think is probably best dealt with on a case-by-case basis rather than a blanket exception (this is a very small number of abortions, so it's not impractical at all) (if the life is truly worthless, then I could see myself agreeing to an exception), and 2) it wasn't their fault they got pregnant - in which case I point to the adoption industry (and as for the problems with adoption, I believe if we stopped spending money to fund planned murderhood and government-funded birth control (I believe birth control should be covered like any standard prescription with a reasonable co-pay), we could gradually eliminate the problems with the adoption industry).

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

Abortion should be safe, legal, and encouraged, if not mandatory for immature teenage girls who are driving up our poverty rate.

Well, your positions just get weirder by the day. Pro-SSM, but (at least historically) anti-Trans, and one of the few people who actually calls himself pro-abortion.

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

Not sure if your first point is serious, but if not, women screaming does not justify murder, sorry.

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

Some Republicans are resisting the GOP's transformation into a European-style right-wing party!

We won't stop fighting this issue until abortion is 100% illegal in all cases nationwide.

Nice to know you would rather kill the mother than let an abortion happen.

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

Well, to break down your argument, I should support a rape exception because 1) republicans won't fund adoption - which I believe may change once society is no longer given the option of abortion, and thus aggressively push congress to more aggressively fund adoption, and 2) because not doing so is unpopular with women - which might work if I was a politician trying to win an election, but as a private citizen the popularity or lack thereof of my positions is not something I even think about.

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

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Source for that? I literally looked it up and the only thing that mentions abortion in the first couple pages is this: http://liveactionnews.org/raped-women-who-had-their-babies-defy-pro-choice-stereotypes/, which actually argues the opposite.

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Source for that? I literally looked it up and the only thing that mentions abortion in the first couple pages is this: http://liveactionnews.org/raped-women-who-had-their-babies-defy-pro-choice-stereotypes/, which actually argues the opposite.

...Have you talked to a woman that isn't your mother or one of the ladies at your church? Like, ever?

Obviously yes. I don't live in some cave and only come out for Church, or whatever stupid theory you cooked up.

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

Last thought on this. The GOP will push as far as they can without offending white women. If white women flee the GOP because of abortion, the GOP risks seeing the white vote go from a 20 point gap to a 10 point gap. You get the picture of what happens next if that happens.

Structurally unless the true believers get ahold of the GOP's strategy, white women will be able to get abortions. Or at least, their abortion issues will be mitigated by contraceptive availability.  In short, the GOP will never fully repeal Roe because of the importance of white women in the GOP coalition.

A full ban on abortion would immediately and decisively kill the GOP.

Also, the GOP is being stupid. per usual, nobody has thought this out at the RNC. If you make it harder for poor Latinas to have an abortion, guess what they do? They have more children and their mother gets angry at you and votes against the GOP ...and tells her kids to do the same too.

Abortion is ultimately a losing issue for the RNC.

At the end of the day, there are probably more single-issue pro-life voters then there are single-issue pro-choice voters, so the GOP will never "give up" on life, but you're right that there may be a certain point that they won't push beyond, so that people like Lisa Murkowski don't leave the party.

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

He will join Mary Fallin in the history books of people who claimed to be pro-life, but passed on their chance to be the one to get Roe overturned.  Sad!

This needed to be vetoed for strategic reasons. The challenge to Roe can't succeed when there is still a pro-choice majority on the Supreme Court.

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

He will join Mary Fallin in the history books of people who claimed to be pro-life, but passed on their chance to be the one to get Roe overturned.  Sad!

This needed to be vetoed for strategic reasons. The challenge to Roe can't succeed when there is still a pro-choice majority on the Supreme Court.

By the time it comes to them, they might have went from 5-3 to 4-5.

I would prefer not placing any bets on judicial retirement.

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

Over 30 years ago, coming out in favor of gays in the military as a judge would probably have resulted in him becoming the laughingstock of the judicial system. Everyone still hated gays then. And the boy scouts is a private club that makes no claim to serve the public at large,  so the equal protection clause objectively doesn't apply to them.

This bill doesn't even have a life of the mother exception to it. Yikes!

I'm Pro-Life and i'm against Abortion with no exceptions.

so you are anti-life?

I wouldn't call favoring the classic "3 exceptions" (assuming he holds that position or something similar) anti-life.

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

Banning abortion is doomed to fail...it's like prohibition.

Before Roe vs Wade...there were a million abortions done a year under the table. All banning abortion would do is move it back to those circumstances. And since we all know that no state would be willing to fully enforce jailing women who have abortions, just like with prohibition, then the ban is doomed to fail.

Never understood pro-lifers, their viewpoint on abortion is doomed to fail just like in every other country where abortion is banned

This argument only works if you presume, at least on some level, that there's nothing wrong with abortion. What it essentially boils down to is "Well, people will get abortions anyway, so we may as well help them do it safely." I could just as easily say "Well, people will murder each other anyway, so no since trying to stop them. Better that they do it out in the open where people can get help and defend themselves rather than in some back alley where people are defenseless." If you believe that abortion is murder, neither of these arguments make sense - because murder is a fundamentally wrong action. It's not about making it "rare". It's not about making it "safer". It's about doing everything we can to stop it. If we even save one life as a result of abortion prohibition, it's worth it. Because every human life is precious.

Furthermore, you assume that every woman out there who wants to get an abortion will stop at nothing to get it. That's obviously not true. Even leaving aside the natural inclination of the populace to follow the law out of fear of getting caught, the current situation is one in which women are quite frankly told this by pro-choice organizations, counselors, employers, doctors, and so on: "Well, you want that promotion, don't you? You want that high role in the military, don't you? You want lots of money for yourself, don't you? You don't have enough money for your child, do you? Well, get an abortion. It's legal, so it must be moral!!!!!!!!!". Women are told to not even think about whether it is moral, because it being legal makes it moral (logic that blows up when pro-choice people go on talk shows and tell people to not "legislate morality"), and to not even enter the child into their considerations, just think about themselves, themselves, themselves. With that sort of advice, it's not hard to see why you would resolve to get an abortion. In a world where abortion is illegal, counselors and doctors would never bring it up. A woman would express displeasure at being pregnant and simply be told "it's a fact of life". Abortion would only be promoted in whispered conversations, hardly the yuge-promotion-by-every-medium-possible it gets now. So it follows that abortion would become less common.

Furthermore, the idea of abortion taking place in some side street with no safety procedures is a myth created by the abortion industry. The term "back-alley abortion" actually meant that people would enter a doctor's, nurse's, or midwife's office to get an abortion through a door accessed through the back alley rather than through the front door, to avoid arousing suspicion from any hostile observers. No inherent bad medical practice is meant by the term.

http://afterabortion.org/2011/the-truth-about-back-alley-abortions/


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Finally, I know what you're going to say. "Well, why not pass policies that reduce abortion without making it illegal!", to which my response is "Why is it that democrats only care about making abortion rare when boxed into a corner?". Aside from a few lines on NARAL's website about "supporting reducing the need for abortion", I've seen no evidence that democrats really even care that abortion is rare. The idea of abortion being rare was removed from the democratic platform in 2008. Bill Clinton coined the phrase "Safe, Legal, and Rare", but Hillary simply used "Safe and Legal", a language repeated by democrats across the country, including by NARAL itself at times. The word rare has disappeared. When Hillary defended the pro-choice position in a debate, it was all about "I don't want to make that decision for her". I never heard her describe birth control or sex education as something that could reduce the need for abortions, or even clearly say that reducing the need for abortions is important, then or at any other point in the campaign. Wait, don't tell me why. It's because you believe that what is developing in the womb is not a "human", or at least not a "person". That's where every single argument for abortion derives from, or at least what it needs to survive - the belief that we aren't dealing with a "proper" member of our species, when in fact we are in every respect.

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

if you believe abortion is murder, killing abortion doctors in the act is a good deed.

if you believe that to be true - be my guest but then all those abortion foes are much too nice to abortion supporters like myself, which is why i call their argument bogus.

Because a large portion of the pro-life movement understands that just screaming "BIGOT!!!!" until people agree with you is not how you actually grow a movement.

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

Banning abortion is doomed to fail...it's like prohibition.

Before Roe vs Wade...there were a million abortions done a year under the table. All banning abortion would do is move it back to those circumstances. And since we all know that no state would be willing to fully enforce jailing women who have abortions, just like with prohibition, then the ban is doomed to fail.

Never understood pro-lifers, their viewpoint on abortion is doomed to fail just like in every other country where abortion is banned

Both of my parents are only alive because abortion was illegal in California until Reagan legalized it in 1967, four years after my father was born and seven after my mother. My father's mother was 17 when she gave birth to my father, and my mother's mother was 16. The latter has even told my mother that she'd have been aborted if it hadn't been illegal in 1960. Don't pretend banning abortion doesn't reduce it. That's horsesh**t.

Making drugs illegal dosent stop people from using them
Making prostitution dosent stop people from doing it
Making guns illegal dosent stop people from buying them

What makes you think outlawing abortion will stop abortion? If you ever bothered to read the entire Roe v Wade Supreme Court statement, you'd realize this was a major reason for their decision: there is no way to stop abortion so you might as well make it legal and safe

Making bank robbing illegal doesn't stop people from robbing banks
Making polygamy illegal doesn't stop people from getting a polygamous marriage in secret
Making murder illegal doesn't stop devoted murderers

Well, we may as well not have any laws at all!!!!