Israel general discussion

[DavidB.]

This is a fairly interesting article about the only remotely realistic way in which centrist/center-leftist parties might be able to oust Netanyahu.

Interesting article, but the word "curious" appeared waaaay too many time in this piece haha

Yeah, he's generally not the best writer. Maybe that's why he moved to Israel Still, his #analysis is often pretty good.

[DavidB.]

Yawn. New trashposter spotted. Enjoy ignore, Berniebro.

This thread is about politics in Israel, not about your irrelevant opinion of Israel.

[DavidB.]

I'm simply saying criricisms about us are valid when it comes to morality and that given our foreign policy track record in the last 100 years, we shouldn't lecture the rest of the world on freedom and democracy.

Exactly, so why are you still whining about Israel?

[DavidB.]

I'm against all sorts of injustices. What Israel does to Palestine is one of many. I oppose what the Saudi government does on human rights. I oppose the Sharia theocracy of Iran. I oppose our actions of toppling governments when we didn't have to.

I'm simply saying criricisms about us are valid when it comes to morality and that given our foreign policy track record in the last 100 years, we shouldn't lecture the rest of the world on freedom and democracy.

Pick one.

[DavidB.]

Stop whining, Berniebro. Jesus, it looks ugly.

[DavidB.]

And I would like to have a BMW. And a mansion with a swimming pool. But an important part of growing up and becoming an adult is knowing that you sometimes don't get what you want, Berniebro.

[DavidB.]

Not sure how it's a temper tantrum.

...

In 72 hours, you managed to make 20 (!) posts to this thread which can be summarized as follows: "I don't know anything about either Israeli politics or the history of the US intervention in Iraq, but Israel is responsible for it, I'm just so Very Angry about all this, but it's all cool because I'm really, really not an anti-Semite!" If that's not a typical BernieBro temper tantrum, albeit a rather long one, then what is?

[DavidB.]

Meanwhile, the story of the Hebron soldier who shot dead a wounded terrorist that had attacked one of his fellow soldiers a few minutes before is blowing up in the hands of Benjamin Netanyahu. The video, which prompted both international and national criticism of the soldier's conduct, was released by B'Tselem. The UN and ministers Benjamin Netanyahu and Moshe Ya'alon (Defense) condemned the soldier's action, whereas MKs Avigdor Lieberman (YB), Bezalel Smotrich (BY/Tekuma) and Oren Hazan (Likud) publicly supported the soldier. The IDF announced that an investigation would take place. On Friday, however, a second video was published, in which it became apparent that the soldier might have had a reason to believe that the terroris was, in fact, wearing an explosive vest. This prompted more public figures to come out in support of the soldier.

The story has become the talk of the town in Israel, and it is not the first one: a few years ago, the fairly similar story of "David HaNahalawi", a soldier who had pointed his gun at a minor threatening him, became an issue. Of course, this is a very sensitive subject and since almost all non-haredi Israelis have served in the IDF at some point, there is much solidarity with the Hebron soldier. Most Likud voters presumably stand with the soldier, so Netanyahu needs to hope this story does not drag on for too long. He might be unlucky: the soldier might be prosecuted for murder.

[DavidB.]

Also, MKs Avigdor Lieberman, Bezalel Smotrich and Oren Hazan are not people I'd want to cite as people on this solidier's side. Smotrich is crazy, Lieberman is an attention whore, and Hazan is an a-hole.

So, all and all, I think the government and IDF responded appropriately

Then you are the one who's not on the soldier's side, not these three high-energy politicians. No surprise though.

[DavidB.]

DavidB. has long shown himself to be disrespectful of the IDF and it's duties. SAD!

[DavidB.]

That soldier was active in Beitar Jerusalem far right organization and is generally a disgusting Ars I don't believe a word he's saying and I hope he gets the due sentence  (but he won't)

More racism by Ashkenazi left-wingers. Sad!

Didn't know he was Beitar. That improves my opinion of him even more. Now here's to hoping the Erev Rav will not succeed in this case. The people will not accept it.

Let's now move to the next junk poll, because while I tried to be objective in my first post on this subject, I see this is becoming a trainwreck

[DavidB.]

I will answer them, but I'm not objective (no one is) and many of these questions are relatively subjective, so people (who actually know what's going on, that is) should feel free to be critical of it.

1) Netanyahu is relatively popular among the right, not at all among the left. However, even on the right, quite some people are tired of him, but they see him as a better alternative than the left. (I belong to this category). He's basically in power because he's inevitable. He successfully manages to prevent people from challenging his power within Likud, and the Israeli left is just too weak to challenge Likud/Netanyahu. Even if the Zionist Union would have been the largest party in the last election, it would almost have been impossible to form a coalition without Likud. The party is very strong among working-class people/Mizrahim, who continue to support it.

2) It will probably restart sometime, if only because the next American president wants to get the Nobel Peace Prize. Don't think it will happen this year, though. Obama is done with it, and both conflict parties don't seem to be interested in it.

3) Yes (but certainly not among the left). There are certainly a lot of people within Likud who are more to the right than Netanyahu. Perhaps pragmatist is an even better term. As PM, you have to take into account much more interests and people than as a Likud MK (or even a minister), so in some sense this is logical. However, Netanyahu takes it to a different level. I sometimes doubt he's interested in anything else than power, but that might be my bias (though many Israelis, both on the right and on the left, would agree with me).

4) The problem is that the conflict overshadows everything, which causes all other important issues not to be taken into account. For instance, the country suffers from crony capitalism, oligarchy, and high tariffs. Inequality and poverty are skyrocketing, there is a huge economic bubble, and the costs of living keep rising. However, Likud can afford to do nothing, because it will win the elections over people's concerns regarding the conflict anyway. That is a very sad state of affairs, in my opinion. At some point, this has to be tackled. There is quite some attention for this problem, which got picked up by protesters in 2011 and then by political parties Labour/Yesh Atid/Kulanu, but not enough to make a difference in terms of policy. Likud is very status-quo oriented and risk-averse, so they are not going to implement the necessary changes. Another important issue is related to religion-state issues. Should there be civil marriage? Should Haredim have to serve in the army? What, if any, influence should the chief rabbinate have? So I'd say conflict + religion/state + economy are the three most important political themes in Israel.

[DavidB.]

I indeed wonder whether the economy will be flexible enough to deal with that in a good way. It's going to be hard for people who are already having a difficult time making ends meet, and this is one of the reasons I'd rather wait before moving there.

Oh, and regarding the government's stability (which I forgot to answer), they only have a one-seat majority and it will doubtlessly collapse before 2019 (normal Israeli), but this seems to be the best option for most parties, so they are fine for now. Theoretically only Kulanu and Bayit Yehudi have incentives to quit the coalition, but Bayit Yehudi's number of seats will go up in the next election anyway, so it doesn't really matter for them, and Bennett, who wants to be PM someday (good luck with that), will find the mainstreaming of the party more important than principles (which is why I don't support them anymore). Kulanu will be absolutely crushed, so better for Kahlon to stay in and try to exercise some influence, at least for now.

[DavidB.]

That's Hilario because I'm not "Ashkenaz" part for one grandmother. Also nothing racist about "Ars" as you would have known had you known Israeli society better. Also today a fellow soldier present at the execution said there was no fear of a bomb and he was bent on shooting him, so can we cut the BS and admit the srugim and the uneducated mass just want a free hand in executing Palestinian militants?

Non of it matters ofc because he'll receive a ridiculous punishment, but this incident shows us the bestiality the right sunk to, and the fake humanism the right politicians have to express when direct evidence for the consequences of their words    

The remark was tongue-in-cheek. That said, of course people use that word all the time, but there is a reason people also didn't find it acceptable to use the word on a Labour Party conference, and yes, that reason is racism and classism All this shows once again how the Israeli left lost any contact with the working class (or the "uneducated mass", as you like to call them; could it get any more elitist?), who love this brave hero and are sick and tired of the establishment. Sad!

I personally don't care whether the terrorist even appeared to have a suicide vest or not, and I also don't care for "right-wing" politicians preaching "humanism". I think you know where I stand.

[DavidB.]

The reason it causes stir is because some 100 Haaretz readers from Tel Aviv who care about identity politics caused a "stir" online, AKA no one really cared. Regarding the detachment from the "working class" (which in itself is funny for right wingers to go to) Israel doesn't have a working class, and even if it did it would not be the Sephardi population who are mostly middle class. Or as I tell fellow leftists, cut the crap this is not a class conflict it's a conflict between modernism & liberalism versus religious and ethnic backwards views.

My avatar might mislead you, but I am not your average right-winger. I am a right-winger for identity-related reasons, not for socio-economic reasons. I would have a deep red avatar if the left would be better than the right on immaterial issues.

Class remains extremely important in modern society. Of course the Israeli left does not want to analyze the situation on the basis of class, because that would necessitate them to come to terms with the fact that they have failed utterly in attracting support from working-class voters. Analyzing the situation in terms of "progressive liberalism/because it's 2016" vs. "those backwards, conservative, Jewish people" has always been popular among the left and it is exactly why voters do not buy the left's positions anymore.

"Israel does not have a working class" is a pretty lol statement. The fact that the country has a largely service-based economy does not mean people cannot be working class. Most Mizrahim might be middle class, but most of the working class is Mizrahi. The fact that someone with a blue avatar needs to tell someone with a deep red avatar to take into account class is a bit remarkable.

[DavidB.]

The facts are clear: the people stand with our brave hero!

define working class? a working class as a Marxist "revolutionary agent" does not exist here or anywhere in the western world. I don't know how well informed you are in Marxist doctrine but trying to bend it to include Mizrahim is precisely why analyzing it to revolve around class is bogus. The fact of being poor does not make one working class, and it's definitely not congruent with Mizrahim in Israel.
Anyway in the Israeli market Arabs\Russians\African immigrants play a closer role to a working class than Mizrahim, I also disagree on you analysis as to why the left is failing with (a large segments) of voters.

FYI, Likud doesn't attract to much "working-class voters" as well. Most decile 1-3 voters vote for UTJ\Shas\JAL not Likud nor Labour (and surely not Lapid or Meretz)

As a political scientist I know my concepts, thank you very much. While the working class will bring about the revolution according to Marxist theory, it does not have to be revolutionary in order to be (though deteriorating conditions should make the working class more revolutionary). Therefore, it is irrelevant that the working classes in the West and in Israel are not revolutionary (yet). The working class, broadly speaking, is the class that is subject to exploitation of the upper class.

And yes, class is relevant in Israel, both socially and electorally. Of course being poor does not automatically render one working class, but the poor are often working class. Similarly, of course Haredim, Arabs and African immigrants are often poorer than Mizrahim (and are often working-class too), yet this doesn't change that if one combines the working class and the lower middle-class, who are struggling due to the increase of inequality and the rising costs of living (and it is hard to really differentiate between the lower-middle class and the working class nowadays), Mizrahim will easily make up the largest percentage. As much as you and others like to ignore it, talking about "the uneducated masses" in Israel has a non-Ashkenazi ethnic undertone. Of course the poorest people in Israel generally vote UTJ/Shas/JL (though Likud will already be a lot larger than the left among this group), but if you take into account people who are one or two steps higher on the ladder, the picture changes dramatically and Likud will easily be the most popular party. And of course Lapid's voters are decidedly middle-class/upper-middle class, and Meretz's even more so. (Don't know why you brought that up tbh. My only point was that Yesh Atid and Labour have been talking about economic inequality more than other parties, but I absolutely didn't say their electorate is working class, which would be nonsense.)

The point is that even without taking into account Israeli Arabs and Haredim, class conflict is more prevalent in Israel than, for instance, in most Western European societies (which are much more egalitarian), even if it is usually not interpreted as such.

But I don't think we are going to agree on this, and I'm really not going to spend more time on this, because it seems fruitless. Shavua tov.

[DavidB.]

C. pardon me but I'm not all that emphatic for your likudnik lower middle class, I don't think they're doing all that bad and I actually think they profit from the continuation of the conflict. So yeah shocking a left wing voter who doesn't think Mizrahim are voting against their interests. how racist.

Not sure if you're implying I think they are voting against their interest, but let's clear that up: I definitely don't think they are voting against their interest and I'm glad you, at least, do not fall for this (but only because you don't acknowledge class in the first place) idea, which is indeed racist. Conflict/territory related issues are the main division in Israeli politics, and people who are traditional and have a right-wing view on the conflict vote for parties that respect traditional people and have a right-wing view on the conflict. It is sad Likud does not pursue policies that benefit these people economically and instead perpetuates crony capitalism, but the immaterial is much more important for people than the material, and as long as the left continues to pretend Israel is (or should be) just another Western European modern state and continues to be out of touch with the working class and the lower middle class, these people will rightly continue to vote for parties on the right. It is perfectly rational for people not to vote for parties that disrespect their identity and their heritage.

E. The uneducated mass is not synonymous  with Mizrahim especially not in 2016

never said this

[DavidB.]

Back to politics:
The Supreme court annulled a part of the natural gas government decision (fascinating decision in constitutional law here) so the government will have to pass it as primary legislation.

Haven't been following this. Could you explain which parties are for, which parties are against, and why?

[DavidB.]

Moshe Gafni (UTJ MK, belonging to the non-Hasidic faction of the party -- Degel HaTorah) stated in a haredi magazine that he wants JH out of the coalition and ZU in. He also took a jab at party leader Yaakov Litzman (who leads the Hasidic faction of the party --  Agudat Yisrael), stating that Litzman "is friends with people who are destroying the Torah world and with the head of a party that isn't working in the interest of the Haredi community" (=Bennett).

You gotta love Israeli politics.

On another note, ZU voters will be thrilled by the perspective of Herzog propping up a Bibi-Bennett government just when Bibi needs it the most. Especially considering the fact that many of them voted for them because of their only campaign issue, namely "PLS NO BIBI ANYMORE".

[DavidB.]

Are there any places where I can look up polling since the last election? Wikipedia doesn't seem to have anything.

Poll by Smith for Reshet Bet Radio, 25 March:
26 [-4] Likud
19 [+8] Yesh Atid
17 [-7] Zionist Union
12 [-1] The Joint (Arab) List
11 [+3] Bayit Yehudi
08 [+2] Yisrael Beitenu
07 [-3] Kulanu
07 [+/-] Shas
07 [+1] Yahadut Hatorah/UTJ
06 [+1] Meretz

Basically, YA wins ZU + Kulanu voters and strategic Likud voters go back to BY and YB.

a centrist-small l liberal party between YA and labour old guard, a socialist party with the respective elements in Labour-Meretz, a radical human rights party from Meretz, some radical parts of Labour and young leftists. The farmers\workers federation type voters would probably disperse across the map

Do you think there's room for three parties? Wouldn't it be more logical to split into a small-l liberal party on Labour's right (Hatnua + Labour right) and a socialist + "human rights" party to Labour's left (Meretz + Labour left)?

[DavidB.]

Today is an amazing day. SO glad Ya'alon will be gone. And the infighting on the left is hilarious.

[DavidB.]

I resent you naming Labour as part of the left. I'm actually for the most right wing government forming (and always against unity governments), go on lets see what you are up to, Liberman as MoD will be a catastrophe. His relationship with the IDF will be toxic from day 1. and well...Talk about moves that will agitate the international community further. 

Lieberman is exactly the kind of MoD Israel needs, I just hope Bibi will not constrain him too much. He will surely face resistance from within the army, but the army is changing too, and Lieberman can help speed up this transformation, which is obviously taking place on other departments as well. Foreign countries will always whine when Israel defends itself adequately and they will only stop whining when more Jews are being killed and more Jewish power is lost, so if anything, international agitation would show that the government is on the right track.

Regarding Labour, well... even Herzog called Yachimovich "extreme left" today

[DavidB.]

Bibi promised to fulfil Liberman's demand for "death penalty for terrorists" which is pretty weird as it is already the law but the military courts decide not to activate it. So I guess they'll try making this a mandatory penalty for murder offence in specific Mens Rea which will result in a constitutional cluster F and a certain void.  

Apparently, this is not even happening. The only thing that seems to change (if I understand it correctly, but I'm not 100% sure about it) is that two out of three judges agreeing with using the death penalty will now be sufficient to execute it (and to execute them...), instead of having the support of all three judges, as is now the case. Won't change a thing in reality, because the death penalty never gets recommended anyway. Nothing for any right-winger to be happy about, unfortunately. The Israeli right is so good at making symbolic things look big while changing nothing at all. This is exactly why people come to hate politics, and why politicians have to pull off more and more extreme tricks to get people to the ballot box (see: Netanyahu and his antics).

[DavidB.]

MK Micky Zohar (Likud) plans on resigning. Advocate Osnat Hilla Mark wil be sworn in instead. Frankly never even heard her name

Neither did Bibi, probably.

[DavidB.]

Zohar is a quirky fellow from "Kabbalah to the people" a weird new movement\sect\cult that got thousands to register within Likud

Is that related to the Laitman weirdo?