The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown

[Torie]

The smell of springtime is in the air. The long winter is finally coming to an end.

[Torie]

The protesters in Madison are of course heroes, and I hope that they inspire similar protests in other cities.

I hope it inspires the issuance of pink slips to them, myself. Different strokes for different folks.

[Torie]

The protesters in Madison are of course heroes, and I hope that they inspire similar protests in other cities.

I hope it inspires the issuance of pink slips to them, myself. Different strokes for different folks.

One would also hope you are fired soon for 'making too much money', Torie. Or even better, jailed.

I have already done jail Opebo, and for some reason the sheriffs did not get the good news that I was an owner lawyer, who probably should have been just let go immediately, or at a minimum, well say, be treated like something other than human vermin for starters, since as you say, these guys are really working for me. Is that any way to treat your boss?

And I am doing my best about "making too much money" by moving my life style closer to yours, and am making quite amazing progress actually. Obama suddenly cares a heck of a lot more for me now, and I can just feel the love beaming towards me all the way from DC. So at least give me an "A" for effort Opebo.

[Torie]

So why should these people be fired for making too much, SS?  You make more than them and are not fired.

Mostly because there's no money to pay them.

If that was the case than why not go after the Police and Firefighters Unions??  Why exempt them?

In CA, they are the worst, particularly the fire fighters. Some with all the benefits make over 500K per year. And then the featherbedding - oh the featherbedding.

[Torie]

From the AP (Happy, Lunar?  )

Police officers were searching for Democratic state lawmakers who had not shown up for a vote on the sweeping legislation. The state Senate Democrats did not show up when they were ordered to attend a midday vote on the legislation. Though Republicans hold a 19-14 majority, they need at least one Democrat present to vote.

CNN reiterated radio reports that indicated Democratic state legislators had boarded a bus and left town. Mike Browne, communications director for Wisconsin Senate Minority Leader Mark Miller, told the network he had not been in contact with any Democratic legislators on Thursday. Browne said he was at the state Capitol and that he had seen no Democrats show up

Ah, this is Texas and DeLay's Pubbie Sixpack redistricting plan all over again. The Dems all went to Santa Fe in that little drama. At least they had good taste in towns. And in the end, the Dems were f'ed, so it all had a happy ending.

[Torie]

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Ah, divide and conquer. I had not thought of that. Yes, that tactic should be added to the arsenal. Anything to take the public employee unions down is just doing the Lord's work. I really hope the Dems keep doing the public employees' bidding - and makes that their signature issue. That should erode them down to their hardcore base - nicely.  

[Torie]

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Ah, divide and conquer. I had not thought of that. Yes, that tactic should be added to the arsenal. Anything to take the public employee unions down is just doing the Lord's work. I really hope the Dems keep doing the public employees bidding - and makes that their signature issue. That should erode them down to their hardcore base - nicely.  

Torie, you disappoint me and I'm not joking. I expected that kind of attitude from a teenage Ron Paul fan who dreams libertarian utopias, not somebody that actually inhabits the real world.

I am hardcore right wing on public employee unions. As Michael Barone wrote, they are cannibals eating us alive. They in general are grossly overpaid, and massively over-pensioned, and as I say, in some arenas, like firefighters, grossly overstaffed. Why should states and cities go broke over that, and why should folks who make less money than they do pay more taxes so that they can be paid way above market?  It's Robin Hood in reverse!

So, I make no apologies on this one. They need a good swiving, and they need it now.

[Torie]

Public employees in Wisconsin aren't overpaid and over-pensioned and overstaffed eh?  I must congratulate Wisconsin on its good governance, then. That makes the Cheesehead state one of the the all too few jewels in the US states crown.

Yes, Pubbies are disgusting regarding the firefighters union (aka in CA the paramedic parasites about 90% of the time now - fires are just so yesterday (no, these guys never go into the hills to fight fires; those kids are way underpaid actually)).

[Torie]

Teachers are overpaid all of sudden? What a load! My mom retired in 2005 after 30 years and made about 35k/year. If you want to cherry pick obscene salaries, you probably want to start with hedge fund managers.

Taxpayers don't pay those. How much is the compensation of the teachers being cut in Wisconsin, and from what to what? If it were me, my goal would be to cut, and put all the savings into merit pay. I actually do want to spend more on secondary education, particularly in the inner cities, but that requires first cleaning out a lot of the existing detritus.  JMO of course.

[Torie]

Taxpayers don't pay those. How much is the compensation of the teachers being cut in Wisconsin, and from what to what? If it were me, my goal would be to cut, and put all the savings into merit pay. I actually do want to spend more on secondary education, particularly in the inner cities, but that requires first cleaning out a lot of the existing detritus.  JMO of course.

Why not clean out the detritus of your class, on which society wastes an enormously greater amount of money?

I am counting on you to do that for me, Opebo. I'm just to busy right now. Get to work! Oh time for my gym training session I see. I wonder how my trainer will make me sweat today (he so enjoys that). See ya later.

[Torie]

Teachers are overpaid all of sudden? What a load! My mom retired in 2005 after 30 years and made about 35k/year. If you want to cherry pick obscene salaries, you probably want to start with hedge fund managers.

Taxpayers don't pay those.

I have four letters for you: T A R P.

TARP was great except for one little thing - all of the shareholders of those failed institutions were not zeroed out. The government should have ended up owning them all. Bye.

[Torie]

We still don't know what they are making, and maybe dealing with collective bargaining rights is just the foreplay before the budget cuts, which would be facilitated. Or maybe Walker just hates public employee unions in the abstract, when really the thing is to make them ineffectual - to wit, unable to raise wages above market. So is Walker a smart or a dumb? To be, or not to be?

[Torie]

The state troopers told to go after the dems refused and the capital police ignored the governors order to clear out the protesters, union solidarity is strong here.
As for teachers getting the "Blue Flu" i would prefer they wait until the strike is officially called.

Refusing to enforce the law eh, assuming that it is the law? If so, the next step is the national guard. The state troopers work for the state right?  I wonder how they should be dealt with, if they are refusing to follow orders.

[Torie]

Teachers are overpaid all of sudden? What a load! My mom retired in 2005 after 30 years and made about 35k/year. If you want to cherry pick obscene salaries, you probably want to start with hedge fund managers.

Taxpayers don't pay those.

We do allow them to pay income taxes at a 15% rate instead of standard brackets because of a shameful loophole that they've lobbied to keep open. Check it out.

I bet you, just bet you, that the deficit commission, that outfit Obama is keeping his distance from that was his creation, and on which  all of his appointees signed off the plan that got a healthy majority of both parties on the commission, zeroed that one out. Wanna bet? Let's get on with it!

PS: I also suspect that it is a bit more complex than that they get a 15% rate, and I get (well I used to get) a 37.56% rate. It probably is transactionally driven, and/or some theory behind it that the taxes are paid elsewhere. Or maybe - as you suggest - it is just a swiving scandal. In any event, flush it.

[Torie]

cinyc, note that Walker goes beyond givebacks to help close a budget deficit into bona fide union-busting tactics. You and many others may feel that was an appropriate course of action for the greater good, but it also gives unions greater incentive to declare WW3 in response.

What is wrong with the unions declaring WW3?  There probably will be one anyway, across the country in many places. The numbers are going to drive a plate tectonic shift. War is one way to resolve differences. It is not as if the GOP has any interest in placating public employee unions (except those public safety folks sadly), anyway. So given that they are a major part of the problem, go after them. Why not?

[Torie]

Here's a random question/thoughts: If schools are privatized there is no doubt in my mind that adminstrators (and god forbid it's a chain of schools with seperate corporate headquarters), especially at the higher end, would be paid hundreds of thousands of dollars and perhaps even $1 Million+ depending on how many schools they own (bet it will still be less than the amount of schools run by the guy in LA County, and I doubt he gets paid much more than 100k, which of course most people will bitch about government employees receiving).

So why do we bitch so much when it's government employees who serve us make a decent wage while we say nothing when the higher ups of corporations that serve us make Millions of dollars? And just like a school administrator making a lot of money will possibly lead to higher taxes, a school administrator in a private school making a lot of money would lead to higher tuition fees. And yet people won't bitch at all about the second situation. Why is that?

Because they are paid with public money that is why. If I were paid with public money, working as a lawyer for the government, what I was "paid" over the years would certainly be fair game - because it would be outrageous. I would be saying extremely nasty things about the lawyers' union - very nasty.

[Torie]

The idea that we only pay the salaries of public employees, but that those of private employees are no concern of ours or are not in any way borne by us is quite mind bogglingly illogical to me, quite frankly.

Why is it any concern of yours again as to what some private client of mine and I agree will be my billing rate?  Why is it any concern of yours, or the public, whether we agree on $250 an hour, or $500 an hour?  And why is it any concern of yours whether I make 200K per year, or 600K, if all paid by private clients?

[Torie]

Here's a random question/thoughts: If schools are privatized there is no doubt in my mind that adminstrators (and god forbid it's a chain of schools with seperate corporate headquarters), especially at the higher end, would be paid hundreds of thousands of dollars and perhaps even $1 Million+ depending on how many schools they own (bet it will still be less than the amount of schools run by the guy in LA County, and I doubt he gets paid much more than 100k, which of course most people will bitch about government employees receiving).

So why do we bitch so much when it's government employees who serve us make a decent wage while we say nothing when the higher ups of corporations that serve us make Millions of dollars? And just like a school administrator making a lot of money will possibly lead to higher taxes, a school administrator in a private school making a lot of money would lead to higher tuition fees. And yet people won't bitch at all about the second situation. Why is that?

Because they are paid with public money that is why. If I were paid with public money, working as a lawyer for the government, what I was "paid" over the years would certainly be fair game - because it would be outrageous. I would be saying extremely nasty things about the lawyers' union - very nasty.

So according to Republican ideology public workers are acceptable members of society only if they are paid the minimum wage, otherwise they are the scum of the earth and the root of all evil.

OK.

No, just the market rate, like I am, and most of us are, who do not work for the government. If it is janitorial work, and the market rate is the minimum wage, that is why we have the income tax credit, etc., if necessary to get the standard of living up to some minimum level as to which we agree comports with our values. Yes, I am right wing on this issue, but I would submit, that there is a very good case to be made that it is my team that is looking out for the little guy on this one, not the opposition. Paying more for government services than we need to, does not help the little guy - indeed they can least afford that waste, because it will have a tendency to come out of government services that otherwise benefit them at the margins.

To me it is just wrong. I sleep well at night on this one.

[Torie]

Here's a random question/thoughts: If schools are privatized there is no doubt in my mind that adminstrators (and god forbid it's a chain of schools with seperate corporate headquarters), especially at the higher end, would be paid hundreds of thousands of dollars and perhaps even $1 Million+ depending on how many schools they own (bet it will still be less than the amount of schools run by the guy in LA County, and I doubt he gets paid much more than 100k, which of course most people will bitch about government employees receiving).

So why do we bitch so much when it's government employees who serve us make a decent wage while we say nothing when the higher ups of corporations that serve us make Millions of dollars? And just like a school administrator making a lot of money will possibly lead to higher taxes, a school administrator in a private school making a lot of money would lead to higher tuition fees. And yet people won't bitch at all about the second situation. Why is that?

Because they are paid with public money that is why. If I were paid with public money, working as a lawyer for the government, what I was "paid" over the years would certainly be fair game - because it would be outrageous. I would be saying extremely nasty things about the lawyers' union - very nasty.

Again I don't see the difference between the administrator at a local public school making a lot of money thus affecting the quality of education or taxes and a administrator at a private school making a lot of money leading to hikes in tuition. I don't care whether my money is going to the government or a business, the point is that it's going more to the administrator than to my child's classroom. Whether it is a private or public school is highly irrelevant. I pay taxes in US dollars and I pay tuition in US dollars. 

Well if the private school tuition gets uncompetitive, students will go elsewhere. It is all set by the market, and that is all the right wants when it comes to public employees - exactly the same thing. Somehow, I strongly doubt the top administrators of private secondary schools make anything like you suggest, and indeed in general they probably make less than similar persons in the public school system. But that is neither here nor there.

[Torie]

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If that is the case, than my level of self awareness still needs some work.

[Torie]

Oh yeah Torie, why do you think workers in public schools make more than those in private schools? Cite?

I am not sure what you mean by "workers," but when I researched this issue heavily during the voucher campaign about 15 years ago (I was a speaker on that subject), private school teachers made less than public school ones (sometimes considerably less), and the administrative structures tended to be far learner and meaner than public school, with the latter bloated. I don't know about the janitorial pay scales.

By the way, I really would like to pay public school teachers more. If only they could be hired and fired based on performance, and we were attracting the A students to the profession, rather than the C students from third rate colleges. And then of course, what goes on in the classroom needs to be changed.  

[Torie]

The idea that we only pay the salaries of public employees, but that those of private employees are no concern of ours or are not in any way borne by us is quite mind bogglingly illogical to me, quite frankly.

Why is it any concern of yours again as to what some private client of mine and I agree will be my billing rate?  Why is it any concern of yours, or the public, whether we agree on $250 an hour, or $500 an hour?  And why is it any concern of yours whether I make 200K per year, or 600K, if all paid by private clients?

The way in which I would pay for it depends on who the client is (I'm not sure what type of attorney you are so please forgive my ignorance in that regard). If he's a representative of a corporation that sells products or services, the legal expenses are going to be paid for by higher prices. If he's paying you for a criminal defense, it doesn't have nearly as much direct impact, but increases in the going rate for such services does make them that much more inaccessible to those unable to pay the fees.

I could go on, but again, there is no magic reason why public sector wages are the only ones we pay.

If the corporation can find an equally good and responsive lawyer for less, than the corporate officer who retained me is a dumb. In fact, I sometimes do send clients away, and refer them out. I tell them that my rate is too high, and given the skill level required for what they need done, they can get it done elsewhere for less. I tend to gravitate to matters where I have a lot of value to add, because it is within my core skill set - often involving complex financial matters as to which, as I lawyer, I have an unusual ability to parse. That nexus between the law, economics, and finance is my sweet spot, and folks in the past paid me a lot of money for it.

[Torie]

Did you know the teachers that are striking, calling in sick, whatever, make no contribution to their health or pension plans, zero?  Did you know that what is being proposed is that they pay for 12.5% of their health insurance premiums, and contribute something like 5% of their salary or something to their pension plan?  That is their pay cut. Oh the horror, the horror. Anyone in private industry getting that deal would have an orgasm.

[Torie]

Did you know the teachers that are striking, calling in sick, whatever, make no contribution to their health or pension plans, zero?  Did you know that what is being proposed is that they pay for 12.5% of their health insurance premiums, and contribute something like 5% of their salary or something to their pension plan?  That is their pay cut. Oh the horror, the horror. Anyone in private industry getting that deal would have an orgasm.

It's actually not that bad at all,and I bet similar measures are being put forth in many different states. The problem isn't with that though, it's with the union busting portions of the bill. What does not requiring workers to pay union dues have to do with the budget?

That part of the agenda is to 1) defund unions' campaign war chests, and 2) allow county and municipal executives to adjust public employee compensation and not be trapped by a contract. Walker was Milwaukee County executive, and to balance the books, he just had to fire people, rather than push their compensation down a bit closer to market. He didn't like that.

And yes, I think it is probably a dubious endeavor to do what he is doing. It would be better to just create a new world order when the contract ends, and then the teachers or whomever can do what they are doing now, call in sick, strike, get Obama involved, unleash the DNC, and so forth. This passion play needs to be gone through either way.

[Torie]

I agree with most of the guys here. Very few people would disagree with the reforms Torie mentioned. But the rest of Walker's bill and the exception of his political cronies from it are so odious that it's hard not to justify the public workers' outrage.

That part of the agenda is to 1) defund unions' campaign war chests,

And why should a union's war chest be defunded while private companies that bid for state contracts can spend freely to elect their buddies to positions of power?
If somebody wants clean elections and politicians that aren't beholden to special interests, he should bar both of them from raising and spending money for electoral reasons.

Partisan advantage. No, it can't be defended, just like exempting public safety employees cannot be defended. Not everything the GOP does is defensible. Who knew?