2017 French Presidential Election

[TheSaint250]

I see Le Pen is rolling out some tried and tested Holocaust denialism today...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bloomberg.com/amp/politics/articles/2017-04-09/le-pen-says-france-not-responsible-for-nazi-s-vel-d-hiv-round-up

No she's not. She said she believed the French were not responsible for rounding up Jewish citizens for the Germans. That's not denial of the Holocaust. That's denial that France did anything to contribute to it.

As the article says, she was wrong, but what she said was nothing close to Holocaust denial.

It's denial of a particular event that contributed to the Holocaust. We can discuss semantics as much as you want but this is still vile.

Yes, as I said, she's wrong on this.  I'm just saying it's not blatant Holocaust denial like what was being implied.

Even then, she's blaming the Nazi-backed government at the time for it. She said that that's not who the French people in general are, only the people in power at the time.

[Zinneke]

Ever heard of the concept of German Victimhood?

This is the french equivalent.

[DL]

I thought the core of LePen's support came from people why sympathized with the Vichy pro-Nazi government of Petain?

[Barnes]

Ever heard of the concept of German Victimhood?

This is the french equivalent.

Exactly. A refusal to believe that the French themselves were capable of openly collaborating and coordinating with the Nazi regime and advancing their own goals through them.

Please don't try to defend her words. They speak clearly on their own.

(Sorry, had to keep fixing my iPhone's autocorrect.)

[TheSaint250]

Ever heard of the concept of German Victimhood?

This is the french equivalent.

Exactly. A refusal to believe that the French themselves were capable of openly collaborating and coordinating with the Nazi regime and advance its own principles through them.

Please don't try to defend her words. They speak clearly on their own.

But she's not denying that Holocaust happened as u made it seem

[Zinneke]

Ever heard of the concept of German Victimhood?

This is the french equivalent.

Exactly. A refusal to believe that the French themselves were capable of openly collaborating and coordinating with the Nazi regime and advance its own principles through them.

Please don't try to defend her words. They speak clearly on their own.

But she's not denying that Holocaust happened as u made it seem

Its denying the events surrounding the Holocaust, reducing one of the greatest war crimes in human history to a nationalist caricature of "WE WAZ INNOCENT".

[Barnes]

Ever heard of the concept of German Victimhood?

This is the french equivalent.

Exactly. A refusal to believe that the French themselves were capable of openly collaborating and coordinating with the Nazi regime and advance its own principles through them.

Please don't try to defend her words. They speak clearly on their own.

But she's not denying that Holocaust happened as u made it seem

I made it appear no such way. I just said it's Holocaust denial: attempting to minimize or obfuscate the role or responsibility of people or a group in collaborating and carrying out a component of the Holocaust.

She's attempting to retell a rather pathetic idea of Germany's "Zero Hour" that everything which happened before 1945 is an aberration and nothing is worth learning or even talking about from it.

[Barnes]

But anyway, we can go on about Panzergirl in another thread if we wish, I just thought I'd share the news.

[DL]

But I don't understand why LePen would throw her own supporters under the bus by implying that the French played no role in the Holocaust. The typical FN voter would have supported the Vichy government and would have proudly helped the Nazis round up Jews. Why doesn't LePen take pride in her movement's history as being pro Nazi? If you are in Le Pen's universe you probably think there was nothing wrong with the Holocaust

[Barnes]

But I don't understand why LePen would throw her own supporters under the bus by implying that the French played no role in the Holocaust. The typical FN voter would have supported the Vichy government and would have proudly helped the Nazis round up Jews. Why doesn't LePen take pride in her movement's history as being pro Nazi? If you are in Le Pen's universe you probably think there was nothing wrong with the Holocaust

It's all part of "modernizing" the FN, mon amie.

[Zanas]

But I don't understand why LePen would throw her own supporters under the bus by implying that the French played no role in the Holocaust. The typical FN voter would have supported the Vichy government and would have proudly helped the Nazis round up Jews. Why doesn't LePen take pride in her movement's history as being pro Nazi? If you are in Le Pen's universe you probably think there was nothing wrong with the Holocaust

The real thing to be understood here, is that these kind of declarations never hurt the Le Pens, because the public is either unaware or indifferent. The typical FN voter doesn't really know anything about things that happened 70 years ago and doesn't really care either way.

[Hash]

Given Panzergirl's electorate, the typical FN voter would have been in the STO. But I digress, this is a dumb point to be discussing.

[Barnes]

I mean, this isn't even close to the worst thing she's said this month, but I did wonder when we'd hear la papa grand peak through again.

[Kringla Heimsins]

It's not actual denial. It was also the official position of France before Chirac's presidency.

It's a "no true scotsman" fallacy: "It was not France, because the true France was in London!"

Which is bullsh**t, and implies that what makes France what it is is not its people, but its leaders.

It's ideological, but it's also supposed to please the "France can do no wrong and anything else is unnecessary repentance" crowd. This is really an unsurprising stance. I bet Fillon feel roughly the same toward the Vel d'Hiv.

[ApatheticAustrian]

ah, yeah, the Austrian position, popular for decades.

victims  - victims victims all around.

i wonder if the nazis would have been able to kill 1/10 of their real kill-counter without all those......victims.

[DL]

It's the French version of the Austrian myth that Hitler was German and Beethoven was Austrian

[Pandaguineapig]

It seems she really meant it in the sense that the REAL French government was in exile at the time, but it is stupid for a candidate who is accused of having ties or sympathies to neo-Nazis to dabble in holocaust denial like this. Granted she was never going to win a second round but this could put her first round chances in doubt as well

[Zinneke]

It seems she really meant it in the sense that the REAL French government was in exile at the time,

If her revisionism is anything like her father's then I doubt she believes De Gaulle constituted the legitimate French government during France's period under occupation.

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Its entirely deliberate. Right-wing populist parties can use this kind of rhetoric to communicate to their core militants so as to keep them from on side, but in doing so they intend attract the required headlines only for them to "moderate" their tone, so that more moderate nationalist voters at least sympathise with the end product, and buy into the idea of a left-wing bias. Then you have her apologists (all the way from Florida these days!) invade the forums, etc trying to do you on factoids, when they have never even watched the FN documentaries from the 70s and 80s.  

Le Pen previously did this on education for migrants. She first claimed she would ban education for all new migrants. Gets the headlines desired, gets invited on a TV panel, and says she meant only for illegal migrants. Its a clever tactic, as even if you disagree with the latter policy you still buy into the victim complex. When Le Pen does it its considered abhorrent because of her family name and her party's history, but the reality is its becoming widespread and not just on the extreme Right. Anything for more air time.

The real news though here is that Marine Le Pen has started to sound like her father again. It is indeed surprising that she is bringing up the WW2 revisionism.

[parochial boy]

The real news though here is that Marine Le Pen has started to sound like her father again. It is indeed surprising that she is bringing up the WW2 revisionism.

Hmm, I wonder if maybe Marine is a bit worried about the inexorable rise of her niece, especially if Philippot is going the other way.

Have you got any links to the FN docs from the 70s/80s by the way? I would be interested in watching some of them

[The Other Castro]

What are the odds of each of these match-ups happening?

Macron/Le Pen
Macron/Fillon
Macron/Mélenchon
Fillon/Le Pen
Mélenchon/Fillon
Mélenchon/Le Pen

I'm guessing something like:
Macron/Le Pen - 77%
Mélenchon/Le Pen - 9%
Fillon/Le Pen - 8%
Macron/Fillon - 3%
Macron/Mélenchon - 2%
Mélenchon/Fillon - 1%

[brucejoel99]

What are the odds of each of these match-ups happening?

Macron/Le Pen
Macron/Fillon
Macron/Mélenchon
Fillon/Le Pen
Mélenchon/Fillon
Mélenchon/Le Pen

I'm guessing something like:
Macron/Le Pen - 77%
Mélenchon/Le Pen - 9%
Fillon/Le Pen - 8%
Macron/Fillon - 3%
Macron/Mélenchon - 2%
Mélenchon/Fillon - 1%

Macron/Le Pen - 85%
Macron/Fillon - 5%
Macron/Mélenchon - NOPE
Fillon/Le Pen - 10%
Mélenchon/Fillon - NOPE
Mélenchon/Le Pen - NOPE

[Devout Centrist]

I see Le Pen is rolling out some tried and tested Holocaust denialism today...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bloomberg.com/amp/politics/articles/2017-04-09/le-pen-says-france-not-responsible-for-nazi-s-vel-d-hiv-round-up

No she's not. She said she believed the French were not responsible for rounding up Jewish citizens for the Germans. That's not denial of the Holocaust. That's denial that France did anything to contribute to it.

As the article says, she was wrong, but what she said was nothing close to Holocaust denial.

Which is a lie, Vichy France willing supported the Third Reich and aided in the deportation and extermination of Jewish people.

[justfollowingtheelections]

I like Hamon but I really hope he drops out of the race and endorses Melenchon.  I would much rather have Melenchon as president than Macron or Le Pen.

[Klartext89]

The feeling which told me that Trump would gonna win, is now telling me that Melanchon and Le Pen will face up in the runoff.

The Establishment will - like in Austria - need massive media Support, smear campaign, lies and of course voter fraud to get him over the finish line and prevent Le Pen then. It will get very very heated. Like Steve Bannon said at CPAC, they won't give you your Country back without a fight. Running another old Communist is the newest trick.

[Famous Mortimer]

I see Le Pen is rolling out some tried and tested Holocaust denialism today...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bloomberg.com/amp/politics/articles/2017-04-09/le-pen-says-france-not-responsible-for-nazi-s-vel-d-hiv-round-up

No she's not. She said she believed the French were not responsible for rounding up Jewish citizens for the Germans. That's not denial of the Holocaust. That's denial that France did anything to contribute to it.

As the article says, she was wrong, but what she said was nothing close to Holocaust denial.

Which is a lie, Vichy France willing supported the Third Reich and aided in the deportation and extermination of Jewish people.

She didn't deny this.