LIGHTNING ROUND

[Nym90]

Except, Jmfcst, it seems that people have been making these predictions for 2000 years now...even before the coming of Christ, one can find many quotes about how the world is getting worse and worse, and moral standards are going down (Socrates comes to mind here).

Personally I don't think there's an increase in wickedness, just an increase in media exposure. You hear about bad stuff a lot more than you used to, that doesn't mean there wasn't just as much (if not more) evil-doing in the so-called "good old days".

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Except, Jmfcst, it seems that people have been making these predictions for 2000 years now...even before the coming of Christ, one can find many quotes about how the world is getting worse and worse, and moral standards are going down (Socrates comes to mind here).

First, just because some Christian’s prediction is shown to be false doesn’t nullify the prophecies of an increase in wickedness in the run-up to the last days.

Second, it just may be that past generations like Socrates’ were testifying to a real downward trend of morals.  And it just may be that we have been on a slippery slope for a long time….none of which contradicts scripture’s prophecies of a decline in morality during the last days.

---

Personally I don't think there's an increase in wickedness, just an increase in media exposure. You hear about bad stuff a lot more than you used to, that doesn't mean there wasn't just as much (if not more) evil-doing in the so-called "good old days".

I think the increase of premarital sex, for one, is not a figment of the media’s imagination.  I think it is pretty much an established fact, regardless of how much publicity it gets.

[Gustaf]

In all fairness, I tried to keep to the lightning round aspect of things, keeping my answers very general (which I thought was the idea), whereas Nym's answers are a lot more detailed. For instance, I also have several objections to Bush's handling of the Iraq war, but that doesn't change my reasons for being in favour.

[Nym90]

I didn't disagree that immorality will increase in the final days, I was just saying that I don't believe it is increasing. People have been saying that the end of the world is near for 2000 years now (or more). I know that doesn't affect the accuracy of any current predictions in and of itself, but I don't see any reason why those predictions would be more true today than they were in the past.

As for premarital sex...I don't know. It's impossible to say for sure, the only way to have a statistic is through surveys, and people will give the "right" answer to a survey (just ask The Vorlon ) It's more socially acceptable, I'll give you that much, and as a result more people admit to it now than used to before. I suppose you could view societal acceptance of it as increasing immorality, but I think in the past a lot of people publicly condemned it while they were privately practicing it...so depending on how you look at it, people may be more moral today (isn't it more immoral to say you are against premarital sex, but engage in it anyway, therefore commiting the additional sins of lying and hypocricy, than it is to be honest about your views?).

Obviously it's all conjecture on both our parts as to whether or not wickedness really is increasing or not, but overall I'd say that much, if not all, of the perception of an increase is due to better reporting and media sensationalism (I agree with you that there should be more media exposure of positive things, such as a TV show devoted to them...problem is the free market dictates ratings are king, and positive shows don't get ratings. That's why we need publicly funded TV and radio to bring these shows that don't sell with the private networks. Yay for PBS and NPR!).

[Gustaf]

Except, Jmfcst, it seems that people have been making these predictions for 2000 years now...even before the coming of Christ, one can find many quotes about how the world is getting worse and worse, and moral standards are going down (Socrates comes to mind here).

First, just because some Christian’s prediction is shown to be false doesn’t nullify the prophecies of an increase in wickedness in the run-up to the last days.

Second, it just may be that past generations like Socrates’ were testifying to a real downward trend of morals.  And it just may be that we have been on a slippery slope for a long time….none of which contradicts scripture’s prophecies of a decline in morality during the last days.

---

Personally I don't think there's an increase in wickedness, just an increase in media exposure. You hear about bad stuff a lot more than you used to, that doesn't mean there wasn't just as much (if not more) evil-doing in the so-called "good old days".

I think the increase of premarital sex, for one, is not a figment of the media’s imagination.  I think it is pretty much an established fact, regardless of how much publicity it gets.

Actually, the real reason for percieved immorality is that most people are short-sighted and unable to view things from different view-points. Therefore, adults tend to view young people from an adult viewpoint, whereas they didn't when they themselves were young. It's a matter of changing perspective, mostly.

In addition to what Nym mentioned about pre-marital sex, I would argue, and I can see that you would disagree here, that pre-marital sex as well as not marrying has become more accepted, so an increasing rate there means that, rather than people becoming more immoral. I suspect that doesn't really matter to you, though...  

[Nym90]

Good point on the adult vs. kid thing, too. Old timers love to talk about how the world was so much better when they were kids, and how kids today are so immoral. I don't buy it, though I do look forward to doing the same when I'm an old curmudgeon, of course. Socrates talked at great length about how kids don't respect their elders anymore, etc.

Yes, some sin is more societally acceptable today, but some sin is much less acceptable, too (think slavery, gender and racial discrimination, to name just a couple...the list could go on and on...). On the whole, I'd say things sort of balance out. Plus, like I said, increased societal acceptance may be coming from the top, and society may never have truly not accepted the behavior in the past anyway. People will say what they feel they are supposed to say, especially in a poll, which is the only way you can really guage public opinion on morality.

[migrendel]

You really think that English should be learned ASAP, Nym? Even in abscence of a law codifying English as our national language? Would you support such a law?

[Nym90]

No, I would not support such a law, but it certainly should be encouraged, in schools and such, for immigrants to learn English as soon as is reasonably possible. I do believe that immigrants have a responsibility to learn English soon if they do not already know it. It is extremely difficult to be a productive member of our society if you don't know English.

[The Dowager Mod]

los americanos deben aprender español.

[Josh/Devilman88]

Abortion- IS killing babies
gay marriage- Go to canada
guns- Some people need guns others don't
taxes- flat rate
the world- Who cares? but UK is cool
Iraq- Give them there country, then if they mess it up. Well let UN in and see if they can do better.
John Kerry- idiot
GWB- best presd. since Reagan
Health Insurance- Give it to them
Social Security- Let them have it.
Affirmitive Action- Get rid of it.
Immigration- Go back to mexico
Environment- Fix it. I want trees when i get older
Death Penalty- Like it
Preemptive strike- only if we know why.
Free Trade- NO
Patriot Act- Good Idea!

[kfseattle]

Texasgurl24:  
Estoy de acuerdo.  Es tan importante que los americanos aprender espanol, o otros idiomas, que los immigrantes aprender ingles.  Hoy en dia, ser un miembro de sociedad productivo es hablar mas que una lengua.

Translation:
I agree.  It's just as important that Amrericans learn spanish, or other languages, as it is for immigrants to learn english.  These days, to be a productive member of society is to speak more than one tongue.

[Nym90]

Agreed. A foreign language should be mandatory in US high school for graduation.

[ilikeverin]

los americanos deben aprender español.

Yo golpeo arboles rojos.  Tu golpeas arboles rojos.  Ellos golpean arboles rojos.  Nosotros golpeamos arboles rojos.  Texasgurl24 golpea arboles rojos.

Woo.  I learn things like this in Spanish (actually, I learn verb forms, adjective use, some nouns, and some action verbs, and string them together... but whatever).

[ilikeverin]

Abortion- 1st, 2nd trimesters, and in cases of rape or incest, or when the pregnancy endangers mom or baby.
gay marriage- fully legal
guns- Make guns much harder to get, require ID check at conventions, bans on some weapons (semi-automatics, for instance) for civilians/non-police officers.
taxes- A necessary increase for the rich to fund some social programs  hopefully eventually cut taxes for the low & middle classes.
the world- Remember Teddy Roosevelt?
Iraq- Try to get UN assistance, and more involvement with Muslim countries.  Keep troops in Iraq until Iraq is stabilized.  We can't back out and leave Iraq as an anarchy!
John Kerry- Boring.
GWB- Ruining my future.
Health Insurance- Universal, Single-Payer healthcare would be nice.
Social Security- Keep it public.  Hopefully increase it, eventually/
Affirmitive Action- Switch to class based.
Immigration- Encourage legal immigration, try to crack down more on illegal.  Increase quotas to help people who believe in the American dream to come over.
Environment- More regulations (dun, dun, dunnn!).  No drilling in ANWR.  Increase minimum octane & fuel efficiency.
Death Penalty- Ban it.
Preemptive strike- Heck no.
Free Trade- Trade with countries that meet humanitarian, labor, and ecologic requirements.  All others: try to decrease trade to force them to change.
Patriot Act- Repeal it, repeal it, REPEAL IT!  Such intrusion into privacy.

And you guys forgot Education!!!!!!

Education- Increase funding the most of all services.  Kids are our future!  Repeal NCLB
Vouchers- Use money that would go to vouchers to use in inner city schools/schools that need it the most

[Gustaf]

Abortion- 1st, 2nd trimesters, and in cases of rape or incest, or when the pregnancy endangers mom or baby.
gay marriage- fully legal
guns- Make guns much harder to get, require ID check at conventions, bans on some weapons (semi-automatics, for instance) for civilians/non-police officers.
taxes- A necessary increase for the rich to fund some social programs  hopefully eventually cut taxes for the low & middle classes.
the world- Remember Teddy Roosevelt?
Iraq- Try to get UN assistance, and more involvement with Muslim countries.  Keep troops in Iraq until Iraq is stabilized.  We can't back out and leave Iraq as an anarchy!
John Kerry- Boring.
GWB- Ruining my future.
Health Insurance- Universal, Single-Payer healthcare would be nice.
Social Security- Keep it public.  Hopefully increase it, eventually/
Affirmitive Action- Switch to class based.
Immigration- Encourage legal immigration, try to crack down more on illegal.  Increase quotas to help people who believe in the American dream to come over.
Environment- More regulations (dun, dun, dunnn!).  No drilling in ANWR.  Increase minimum octane & fuel efficiency.
Death Penalty- Ban it.
Preemptive strike- Heck no.
Free Trade- Trade with countries that meet humanitarian, labor, and ecologic requirements.  All others: try to decrease trade to force them to change.
Patriot Act- Repeal it, repeal it, REPEAL IT!  Such intrusion into privacy.

And you guys forgot Education!!!!!!

Education- Increase funding the most of all services.  Kids are our future!  Repeal NCLB
Vouchers- Use money that would go to vouchers to use in inner city schools/schools that need it the most

Education? Go vouchers.

[Nym90]

Education--No vouchers. Fully fund public schools instead. Increase teacher pay to match those of others with bachelor's degrees. Give schools the resources to lower class sizes, improve public schools. don't abandon them.

[ilikeverin]

Education--No vouchers. Fully fund public schools instead. Increase teacher pay to match those of others with bachelor's degrees. Give schools the resources to lower class sizes, improve public schools. don't abandon them.

Good Nym!  *pats Nym on the head*

[Gustaf]

On languages, I love them.

I have studied Latin and English and I now study French and German. Especially German is great fun.

[classical liberal]

Education-no vouchers, no Department of Education at either the federal or state level.  The only acceptable option is for communities (city, county, town, township) to get together and manage their own schools/school districts.  Any higher interference is a detriment.  There is a school district in MS that does nothing but the basics spending 1/3 of the money per capita from local treasure with nearly no federal treasure that DC public schools spend per capita from our federal treasure, and it's college acceptance and performance figures are 3 times as good as DC's.  Clearly money is not a determining factor, and as such federal involvement isn't even justified from a financial standpoint.

[Platypus]

Abortion=Excluding rape, incest or health concerns, first trimester only
Gay Marriage=Pro. I dn't want to get married, but if I did I should be able to.
Guns=Banned/Destroyed/Eradicated, excluding policing and the military
Taxes=Lower them for the lower and middle classes, raise them or keep them neutral for upper class depending on budgetary needs
The World=I like the world. I don't like all the people in it, or all the countries.
Iraq=good to get rid of Saddam, but the lead-up was bad, the invasion good and the occupation terrible. We should stay, but we have a lot of work to do.
John Kerry=Boring, mundane, but honourable and trustworthy
GW=Exciting, charismatic, but irritating and untoughtful
Health Care=Free healthcare for all, and of good quality too. Anyone who opposes this is selfish beyong belief, in my opinion.
Social Security=Reform-Needs to be state run, but more efficiently. Am to have less people accessing it, and raise old-age and disability pensions.
Affirmative Action=We don't have it in AUS, so i'm not really sure. Like the idea of class-based AA; undecided on rae based AA.
Immigration=Extremely Pro-Skilled Immigration, moderately pro unskilled immigration if they are young, anti old, unskilled immigration.
Environment=The environment should be one of the top priorities, but there are other important priorities too.

[Platypus]

Forgot:

Death Penalty: TOTALLY AGAINST; IN COMPLETE AND UTTER DISGUST OF IT.

Pre-Emptive Strikes: With good reason and international support, yes; otherwise...

Free Trade: Yes with countries ith adequate human rights and civil liberties.

Patriot act: What I know of it is negatove, so repeal t or significantly modify it

Education: Not sure exactly what vouchers are, what I know of them is positive. Funding needs to be raised, especially for lower-performing schools, not the other way around (although all schools should have a raise).

[ilikeverin]

Re: Vouchers

They give people money to pay to go to private schools

[Nym90]

It's also worth noting that since schools get funding on a per pupil basis, any students lost to private schools due to vouchers mean that public schools get less money. So it's a way to take money away from public schools and give it to private schools instead, basically.

If vouchers were set up such that the public school still got the same amount of money that they otherwise would have gotten even if they had not lost the student, then I would be willing to give them a second look.

[Gustaf]

It's also worth noting that since schools get funding on a per pupil basis, any students lost to private schools due to vouchers mean that public schools get less money. So it's a way to take money away from public schools and give it to private schools instead, basically.

If vouchers were set up such that the public school still got the same amount of money that they otherwise would have gotten even if they had not lost the student, then I would be willing to give them a second look.

The effect of this is that schools get an actual incentove to be good. Also, at least in Sweden, the system doesn't allow schools to charge the students if they are to recieve voucher money. This means that the schools get less money, but the pupils don't. Vouchers give kids from low-income areas an actual chance to get into top-notch class, which they would otherwise never be able to do.

[Nym90]

They already have incentive...school boards are elected, if the schools are not up to standard the people can vote the board members out. Rather than drain money away from schools that they need to be competitive, they need more money to lower class sizes and increase teacher pay. Give the public schools the help they need, don't tear them down.

Improve public schools in low-income areas, don't destroy them and leave people with no options.