When did the libertarians become the states'-rights party? (user search)
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  When did the libertarians become the states'-rights party? (search mode)
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Author Topic: When did the libertarians become the states'-rights party?  (Read 1559 times)
True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« on: May 28, 2009, 08:05:20 PM »

From Earnest, self-described 'libertarian-leaner', in another thread:

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I do not, personally, understand this logic. I myself have never cared a whit for the notion that says that centralized local power is inherently better and less coercive than decentralized Federal power. For example, I don't find much, if anything, wrong with the Civil Rights Act of 1964; if contravening the local hierarchies and hierophants is necessary to ensure maximum liberty to the individual, so be it.

First of all, "I'm Ernest damnit!" Tongue  (I'm definitely not Wilde about the other spelling.)

The main advantage of decentralizing of power, is that if a particular local government is that if an individual finds that local government to be either too onerous in wielding it or to reluctant to make use of it in a manner that person would find beneficial, it is generally easier for a person to either affect what that government does or to move to a different locale with a government that better suits him than it would be on a national scale.  The assumption that national hierarchies and hierophants will always act to ensure maximum liberty to the individual is not one that can be rationally supported by a look at the historical record.

As for the Civil Rights Act of 1964, as stupid as private discrimination is, government laws that seek to control private acts should be subject to strict scrutiny. That would be Titles II and VII, as the rest deals with government actions.  (BTW, Title II was the provision that Goldwater opposed.)

Title II passes the strict scrutiny test for me, as securing the right to travel freely for all citizens is certainly a compelling government interest, though the inclusion of places of entertainment in the definition of "public accommodation" by Title II is stretching the boundary of compelling government interest.

Title VII with its barring of employment discrimination is more problematic.  Government interference in private provision of employment is a far more substantial infringement on the liberty of a private individual to discriminate than is Title II as it telling the employer how to use its property (i.e., the funds used to pay the employee).   This basically boils down to whether one holds that the government has (or should have depending upon whether you are talking about actual law or ideal law) the power to enforce positive rights, in this case the right to work of one's choosing, when such power would infringe upon negative rights, in this case the right to not have one's property put to a public use.

However even if one holds that under the Federal Constitution positive rights are either subordinate to negative rights, or that they are not including within the meaning of rights (certainly all of the enumerated rights are negative rights, not positive ones), the government could certainly achieve most of the effect of Title VII by making compliance with its bans on employment discrimination a condition of government contracts or subcontracts.  Since most medium to large private employers in this country (small employers with less than 25 employees aren't covered by Title VII anyway) derive a significant fraction of their revenues from supplying the government (both Federal and State) with the goods and services they need, few such employers would be willing to forgo such revenues, and of those that might be, even fewer would be willing to face the public opprobrium that such a decision would bring them.  Handling it in this fashon would be similar in function to that which the Davis-Bacon Act has on wage rates for government contracts.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2009, 10:40:12 PM »

At the end of the day I want the individual to be as free as possible without infringing on the freedom of other individuals.  How we get to that matters little to me.  The Federal govt of the US, in my opinion, has too much power.  For example, highway speed limits.  There is no national highway speed limit, yet the Federal govt still uses FORCE to make states fall in line.  Montana had (basically) no daytime speed limit on its highways.  The Feds didn't like it, but they couldn't do anything about it using the law.  So they threatened to withhold highway funds from Montana if they didn't get in line.  That is BS.  That, and hundreds...probably thousands of other things is why I tend to lean to the "states rights" side of things.

While in general I am not sanguine about the use of Federal money to coerce the States into taking certain actions, highway legislation isn't one of them, since it clearly falls within Congress' enumerated power "To establish Post Offices and Post Roads".
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2009, 05:12:13 PM »

While in general I am not sanguine about the use of Federal money to coerce the States into taking certain actions, highway legislation isn't one of them, since it clearly falls within Congress' enumerated power "To establish Post Offices and Post Roads".
How does Montana (or S.Carolina) picking their own speed limits harm the Post Office?
The Federal Government paid the majority of the costs of building the Interstate highways under authority of the power to establish Post Roads.  Since speed limits do affect the safety of the vehicles carrying the mails, it is a clear and obvious use of the enumerated powers of the Federal government, not one of those penumbras invoked via the Commerce Clause.  Besides maximum speed, another aspect of highway speed is the variability of speed.  Highways are generally safer if vehicles are all traveling roughly the same speed.  That's why rural interstates generally have minimum speed limits as well as maximum speed limits.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2009, 06:42:14 PM »

One thing I can tell you is that libertarians probably do not interpret the Constitution as liberally as that.  Smiley

I'm far more Federalist than Libertarian, and I find the provision and regulation of a National Highway System to be a proper Federal function.

Should the federal government be able to limit dog size because bigger dogs threaten mailmen more than small ones?

There have been instances where the presence of what are deemed to be dangerous dogs on a property have caused mail delivery there to be suspended.  However, in general, the only reason a government (whether federal or local) should limit dog size is if it is the one paying for the dog food and/or vet bills.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2009, 08:37:09 PM »

One thing I can tell you is that libertarians probably do not interpret the Constitution as liberally as that.  Smiley

I'm far more Federalist than Libertarian, and I find the provision and regulation of a National Highway System to be a proper Federal function.
Oh wow, you're serious about the post office/speed limit thing?  What percentage of postal vehicles ever see the interstate? 10%  Sure, most mail probably spends some time on the interstate, but I'm guessing most of the travel time of mail is spent on rail and city streets.  And VERY little mail spends anytime on rural interstate in the middle of Montana. 

And we're talking about the safety of MAIL here?  Really?

I don't think the post office even uses the rails anymore save where that is the only feasible option.  Way too slow even by post office standards.

Besides, I don't hold with a narrow construction interpretation of the constitution.  The post office and post road clause clearly indicate a Federal role in the infrastructure of transportation and communication between the several States was envisaged by the founders.  As such the construction of highways and the regulation of those highways constructed with the use of Federal funds is a clear Federal power. Actually, if one is going to complain about unwarranted Federal expansion concerning the mails, home delivery is far more salient complaint, as that was not originally a post office function at all.
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