ND-SEN: Cramer likely to run

[smoltchanov]

and I'd vote for a reasonable conservative Democrat like Heitkamp against him in a heartbeat.

Except that Heitkamp is not a conservative Democrat.

Yes, she is. She's pro-gun, (reasonably) pro-life, and quite literally went "drill baby, drill!" when asked about the Keystone Pipeline in the 2012 Senate debates.

Excuse me, but she is typical moderate. To see a REAL conservative Democrat look at somebody like James Eastland or James Allen, for example...THEY were conservatives, no doubt. Now "progressivwes" use word "conservative" to ANY Democrat who dares to disagree with their positions. Be it economy, social issues, foreign policy, whatever.. Essentially the same politics that far-right Republicans use against their more "sane" brethethern. Both parties "activists" went mad...

[smoltchanov]

and I'd vote for a reasonable conservative Democrat like Heitkamp against him in a heartbeat.

Except that Heitkamp is not a conservative Democrat.

Yes, she is. She's pro-gun, (reasonably) pro-life, and quite literally went "drill baby, drill!" when asked about the Keystone Pipeline in the 2012 Senate debates.

Excuse me, but she is typical moderate. To see a REAL conservative Democrat look at somebody like James Eastland or James Allen, for example...THEY were conservatives, no doubt. Now "progressivwes" use word "conservative" to ANY Democrat who dares to disagree with their positions. Be it economy, social issues, foreign policy, whatever.. Essentially the same politics that far-right Republicans use against their more "sane" brethethern. Both parties "activists" went mad...

Or maybe we actually care about some issues?

Without allowing ANY dissent within a party? Good work, guys. But - no, thanks..

[smoltchanov]

and I'd vote for a reasonable conservative Democrat like Heitkamp against him in a heartbeat.

Except that Heitkamp is not a conservative Democrat.

Yes, she is. She's pro-gun, (reasonably) pro-life, and quite literally went "drill baby, drill!" when asked about the Keystone Pipeline in the 2012 Senate debates.

Excuse me, but she is typical moderate. To see a REAL conservative Democrat look at somebody like James Eastland or James Allen, for example...THEY were conservatives, no doubt. Now "progressivwes" use word "conservative" to ANY Democrat who dares to disagree with their positions. Be it economy, social issues, foreign policy, whatever.. Essentially the same politics that far-right Republicans use against their more "sane" brethethern. Both parties "activists" went mad...

Or maybe we actually care about some issues?

Without allowing ANY dissent within a party? Good work, guys. But - no, thanks..

I don't see how calling Heitkamp a conservative is "not allowing any dissent within the party." Obviously she needs to be conservative on some issues to get re-elected in North Dakota, and I get that.

I already gave an examples of conservative Democrats. Is Heitkamp similar to any of them?

[smoltchanov]

and I'd vote for a reasonable conservative Democrat like Heitkamp against him in a heartbeat.

Except that Heitkamp is not a conservative Democrat.

Yes, she is. She's pro-gun, (reasonably) pro-life, and quite literally went "drill baby, drill!" when asked about the Keystone Pipeline in the 2012 Senate debates.

Essentially the same politics that far-right Republicans use against their more "sane" brethethern. Both parties "activists" went mad...

The tactics used by the Tea Party against establishmentarians in the early 2020s is the model that left-wing Democrats should follow. Their tactics aren't the problem - I'd love if a leftist had the balls to do what Ted Cruz did in 2013 - but rather their disgusting, social darwinistic ideology. (and, FTR, that applies to all Republican politicians, not just "Tea Partiers", whatever that even means at this point)

So, you are a "left-wing tea partier". My congratulations! I am not, and don't want to be one, because i hate "purists" of any sort - both right and left. Hence -  i am against their tactics as well,,,, That's a difference between us - you don't know any other means but "scorched earth for sake of ideological purity"

[smoltchanov]

and I'd vote for a reasonable conservative Democrat like Heitkamp against him in a heartbeat.

Except that Heitkamp is not a conservative Democrat.

Yes, she is. She's pro-gun, (reasonably) pro-life, and quite literally went "drill baby, drill!" when asked about the Keystone Pipeline in the 2012 Senate debates.

Excuse me, but she is typical moderate. To see a REAL conservative Democrat look at somebody like James Eastland or James Allen, for example...THEY were conservatives, no doubt. Now "progressivwes" use word "conservative" to ANY Democrat who dares to disagree with their positions. Be it economy, social issues, foreign policy, whatever.. Essentially the same politics that far-right Republicans use against their more "sane" brethethern. Both parties "activists" went mad...

Or maybe we actually care about some issues?

Without allowing ANY dissent within a party? Good work, guys. But - no, thanks..

Get off your high horse. I'm fine with Heitkamp being conservative, she represents North Dakota for crying out loud. That doesn't mean I'm going to stand by when TNVol goes around spouting off untruths. Yes, Democrats like Eastland were extremely conservative. That doesn't make Heitkamp a moderate. Any claim to the otherwise is based in faulty logic.

It's your claim that's based on faulty logic. A person SUBSTANTIALLY less conservative then true conservative is NOT a conservative, but rather a moderate.. For everyone, but ideological purists...

[smoltchanov]

and I'd vote for a reasonable conservative Democrat like Heitkamp against him in a heartbeat.

Except that Heitkamp is not a conservative Democrat.

Yes, she is. She's pro-gun, (reasonably) pro-life, and quite literally went "drill baby, drill!" when asked about the Keystone Pipeline in the 2012 Senate debates.

Excuse me, but she is typical moderate. To see a REAL conservative Democrat look at somebody like James Eastland or James Allen, for example...THEY were conservatives, no doubt. Now "progressivwes" use word "conservative" to ANY Democrat who dares to disagree with their positions. Be it economy, social issues, foreign policy, whatever.. Essentially the same politics that far-right Republicans use against their more "sane" brethethern. Both parties "activists" went mad...

Or maybe we actually care about some issues?

Without allowing ANY dissent within a party? Good work, guys. But - no, thanks..

Get off your high horse. I'm fine with Heitkamp being conservative, she represents North Dakota for crying out loud. That doesn't mean I'm going to stand by when TNVol goes around spouting off untruths. Yes, Democrats like Eastland were extremely conservative. That doesn't make Heitkamp a moderate. Any claim to the otherwise is based in faulty logic.

It's your claim that's based on faulty logic. A person SUBSTANTIALLY less conservative then true conservative is NOT a conservative, but rather a moderate.. For everyone, but ideological purists...

Your argument is hardly worth contesting it is so erronious.

The political spectrum does not go: Extreme conservative > Moderate hero < Extreme liberal.  

There are spaces in the between. Consider the political compass. If one has scores of +5.00, +5,00, they are fairly conservative. They are "substantially" -- where did this word come from? where did anyone quantify how the degrees of separation between Heitkamp and Eastland? -- less conservative than someone with scores of +10.00, +10.00. That doesn't mean they aren't conservative, though.

You're also ignoring a keyword that's been implicit since the beginning. Heitkamp is a conservative DEMOCRAT. For a Republican, she would be a moderate. But, for better or for worse, neither mainstream political party exists to appeal to the middle. And, again, get off your high horse. Neither Figueira or I have a problem with Heitkamp being a conservative (Democrat); and no one is suggesting "dissenters" within the party be sent to the gulag -- this isn't Russia.

In some aspects it's worse. Intolerance of other people's views is sometimes higher here then in Russia (spending considerable time in both countries and being Russian by origin can say that with confidence). And you confirmed what i said - Democratic party of present became so left-wing that any REAL moderate (as Heitkamp, who is to the left of any Republican in Congress, even Collins) is a "conservative" to them. Heitkamp is a "conservative". Donnelly - too. Manchin too. Carper and Coons - too (look at Delawareliberal post on his site). Even Feinstein (patented pragmatic liberal) is too for many "activists". Such people and characterizations are insane. And you still accuse republicans of being intolerant insane bigots. They mostly are, for sure, but - so do you. So - follow your advice and get off your high horse. You have pathetic Tweddledee vs Tweedledum situation with BOTH parties gradualy going mad, 40% of population in the middle - forgotten by both (they took their revenge on you this year - most of my usually Democratic friends went to Trump this year simply "to teach a lesson") and are proud of it. It's not even funny anymore..

[smoltchanov]

and I'd vote for a reasonable conservative Democrat like Heitkamp against him in a heartbeat.

Except that Heitkamp is not a conservative Democrat.

Yes, she is. She's pro-gun, (reasonably) pro-life, and quite literally went "drill baby, drill!" when asked about the Keystone Pipeline in the 2012 Senate debates.

Excuse me, but she is typical moderate. To see a REAL conservative Democrat look at somebody like James Eastland or James Allen, for example...THEY were conservatives, no doubt. Now "progressivwes" use word "conservative" to ANY Democrat who dares to disagree with their positions. Be it economy, social issues, foreign policy, whatever.. Essentially the same politics that far-right Republicans use against their more "sane" brethethern. Both parties "activists" went mad...

Or maybe we actually care about some issues?

Without allowing ANY dissent within a party? Good work, guys. But - no, thanks..

I don't see how calling Heitkamp a conservative is "not allowing any dissent within the party." Obviously she needs to be conservative on some issues to get re-elected in North Dakota, and I get that.

I already gave an examples of conservative Democrats. Is Heitkamp similar to any of them?

I don't really have an opinion on whether Heitkamp is or isn't a conservative. I just don't see how it's "insane" to have a different definition of conservative from yours.

The European politics (which is much more mature then American one) long ago established an objective criteria of what's a "conservative" "moderate" and "liberal" in politics. By them Heitkamp is, surely, moderate. 30 years ago no one in Democratic party would call her a "conservative" too. The fact that now most do (and - frequently in derogatory sense of word), and that relative characteristics are used in place of objective one's is hardly a proof of party sanity. And it's ability to repeatedly wrest defeats from the jaws of victory (the last one, against Trump of all people, is absolutely absurd) is hardly a sign of good health too. And the only thing i hear - "more to the left!". The Democratic party begins more and more to me be similar to "our" (Russian) "bolsheviks" of 100 years ago.

[smoltchanov]

Tbh, there is a long tradition of the Dakotas and Montana electing relatively liberal and somewhat centrist Democrats to the Senate. Heitkamp is very similar to someone like Jon Tester, who is popular among his progressive base but hardly cares about conservatives in his state. Smoltchanov is right that these days too many Senators are considered "moderates". People like Feinstein, Carper, Hassan, McCaskill, etc. are all very liberal, but apparently not liberal enough for many Democrats (for reasons I will never understand). Same goes for Republicans who consider people like Kelly Ayotte, Pat Toomey or Rob Portman "too liberal" or RINOs.

Of course. I gave numerous examples of both conservative Democrats and liberal Republicans in my posts. Mentioning only those i could observe since i began to pay attention to American politics (about 1972):

Democrats: Senate: Eastland, Allen, McClellan; House: Nichols, Shelby, Satterfield, Daniel, McDonald, Rarick, Wagonner, Gramm, Leath, Haley (and many other)

Republicans: Senate: Case, Javits, Brooke, Mathias; House: Reid, Whalen, Riegle (before switching)., Gude (and many other)

Now there are no conservative Democrats (or liberal Republicans) in Congress. May be - there are still some in state legislatures...

[smoltchanov]

People like Feinstein, Carper, Hassan, McCaskill, etc. are all very liberal, but apparently not liberal enough for many Democrats (for reasons I will never understand).

Because you're not a liberal.

So your "yardsticks" are absolutely relative: a liberal is only he/she who, you think, is a liberal? Well, is it not too much for someone to be a "judge"? I, at least, use a sort of "standards' developed in Europe and US for years, to characterize political views of the people, you - your personal opinion only..

[smoltchanov]

I absolutely understand that people are angry at Feinstein, who represents a solid blue state in Congress but has some very questionable policy positions (even though she's still a liberal)

Nevertheless - Feinstein is a pragmatic moderate liberal, no less. May California elect someone more liberal? Sure. Must it? Not so sure.

[smoltchanov]

People like Feinstein, Carper, Hassan, McCaskill, etc. are all very liberal, but apparently not liberal enough for many Democrats (for reasons I will never understand).

Because you're not a liberal.

So your "yardsticks" are absolutely relative: a liberal is only he/she who, you think, is a liberal? Well, is it not too much for someone to be a "judge"? I, at least, use a sort of "standards' developed in Europe and US for years, to characterize political views of the people, you - your personal opinion only..

I just recognize that people are going to apply harsher standards to their own side of the spectrum. I don't think that's a good thing or a bad thing, but it's a thing.

Well, let's agree at least on that. BTW, if anyone woud "quote" words like "conservative" or "liberal" by something like "IMHO" (so, it would be an opinion, not statement) - i wouldn't have any objections. Surely, there are people (including those in Democratic party), for which Bernie is a "rock-ribbed conservative" and there are people (including those in Republican party), for whom Ted Cruz is a "dangerous liberal, if not a socialist".....

[smoltchanov]

People like Feinstein, Carper, Hassan, McCaskill, etc. are all very liberal, but apparently not liberal enough for many Democrats (for reasons I will never understand).

Because you're not a liberal.

So your "yardsticks" are absolutely relative: a liberal is only he/she who, you think, is a liberal? Well, is it not too much for someone to be a "judge"? I, at least, use a sort of "standards' developed in Europe and US for years, to characterize political views of the people, you - your personal opinion only..

I just recognize that people are going to apply harsher standards to their own side of the spectrum. I don't think that's a good thing or a bad thing, but it's a thing.

Well, let's agree at least on that. BTW, if anyone woud "quote" words like "conservative" or "liberal" by something like "IMHO" (so, it would be an opinion, not statement) - i wouldn't have any objections. Surely, there are people (including those in Democratic party), for which Bernie is a "rock-ribbed conservative" and there are people (including those in Republican party), for whom Ted Cruz is a "dangerous liberal, if not a socialist".....

Pretty sure no one in the Democratic Party considers Sanders a conservative, so...

Well, sorry, but you are wrong. Bernie was pro-gun (at least - initially), which is typical for representatives from rural states. So - i  read such accusations myself... From "one issue activists"

[smoltchanov]

Heitkamp is a Democrat - that should be enough to vote her out.

Funny what you're discussin here. A RINO claiming that Heitkamp is "conservative" (lmao, what are GOP Senators to the right of Collins, McCain and Graham then?) and that he would prefer her (and therefore Chuck Schumer) over a real Conservative Republican, some Democrats in delusion over their "chances" in rubby Red States and definitions for political labels. LOL.

But who really cares. The GOP will get that seat. Either in a Special election or in 2018. Along with seats in Missouri (no Todd Akin, I'm sorry Claire), Indiana (no Todd Akin twin, I'm sorry Joe), Montana (not even the Fake-Democrat in a libertarian suit will save you this time, Jon) - at least. ^^

Don't be so confident. Democrats were as recently as November 8th. You may get the same fate))))