Secret Ballot Procedure Bill

[Jake]

I would also like to put forward an amendment to this bill:

Section 9

Corruption, electoral fraud, the changing of votes, and tampering with votes in any way, is hereby criminalized in Atlasia. All members of the said committee who are found guilty of any of these charges will have their voting rights striped for a maximum of one year. Trials will be conducted according to the provisions set in place by the Omnibus Criminal Law Act.

Good amendment Colin

[True Democrat]

With this amendment and the recent controversies, I urge the Senate to accept this bill.

[Colin]

Well just to clear things up with this amendment. This only gives set punishments for committee memebers not ordinary Atlasians. I am guessing that any punishment for an ordinary citizen would be up to the Supreme Court to decide although if this is not the case I will have the maximum sentencing apply to all Atlasians.

[Colin]

I have an idea about how to implement this Secret Ballot but yet keep a running total and keep preliminary results available. What we have is once a secret ballot is sent to the SoFA that ballot is placed in a special stickied thread on the Fantasy Elections board. Their is no name on the ballot and the entire vote is kept anonymous. This would allow people to see secret ballots and be able to come up with up to date results that would help discussions while keeping the ballots of people who voted by secret ballot anonymous and secret. I think that this is a good compromise between the people who want to keep public ballots due to fun and those that want to see a secret ballot due to voter intimidation.

[True Democrat]

I have an idea about how to implement this Secret Ballot but yet keep a running total and keep preliminary results available. What we have is once a secret ballot is sent to the SoFA that ballot is placed in a special stickied thread on the Fantasy Elections board. Their is no name on the ballot and the entire vote is kept anonymous. This would allow people to see secret ballots and be able to come up with up to date results that would help discussions while keeping the ballots of people who voted by secret ballot anonymous and secret. I think that this is a good compromise between the people who want to keep public ballots due to fun and those that want to see a secret ballot due to voter intimidation.

This would also keep the write-ins down as you can tell what people's votes by their ballot.

[MasterJedi]

I have an idea about how to implement this Secret Ballot but yet keep a running total and keep preliminary results available. What we have is once a secret ballot is sent to the SoFA that ballot is placed in a special stickied thread on the Fantasy Elections board. Their is no name on the ballot and the entire vote is kept anonymous. This would allow people to see secret ballots and be able to come up with up to date results that would help discussions while keeping the ballots of people who voted by secret ballot anonymous and secret. I think that this is a good compromise between the people who want to keep public ballots due to fun and those that want to see a secret ballot due to voter intimidation.

This would also keep the write-ins down as you can tell what people's votes by their ballot.

I also think this is a good idea.

[Colin]

I have an idea about how to implement this Secret Ballot but yet keep a running total and keep preliminary results available. What we have is once a secret ballot is sent to the SoFA that ballot is placed in a special stickied thread on the Fantasy Elections board. Their is no name on the ballot and the entire vote is kept anonymous. This would allow people to see secret ballots and be able to come up with up to date results that would help discussions while keeping the ballots of people who voted by secret ballot anonymous and secret. I think that this is a good compromise between the people who want to keep public ballots due to fun and those that want to see a secret ballot due to voter intimidation.

This would also keep the write-ins down as you can tell what people's votes by their ballot.

I also think this is a good idea.

Well I'm having trouble putting this into amendment form. If someone could write something along these lines up for me that would be great. If not I'll try writing it.

[MasterJedi]

I have an idea about how to implement this Secret Ballot but yet keep a running total and keep preliminary results available. What we have is once a secret ballot is sent to the SoFA that ballot is placed in a special stickied thread on the Fantasy Elections board. Their is no name on the ballot and the entire vote is kept anonymous. This would allow people to see secret ballots and be able to come up with up to date results that would help discussions while keeping the ballots of people who voted by secret ballot anonymous and secret. I think that this is a good compromise between the people who want to keep public ballots due to fun and those that want to see a secret ballot due to voter intimidation.

This would also keep the write-ins down as you can tell what people's votes by their ballot.

I also think this is a good idea.

Well I'm having trouble putting this into amendment form. If someone could write something along these lines up for me that would be great. If not I'll try writing it.

I could take a shot at it but I'm gone for the rest of today.

[Joe Republic]

I have an idea about how to implement this Secret Ballot but yet keep a running total and keep preliminary results available. What we have is once a secret ballot is sent to the SoFA that ballot is placed in a special stickied thread on the Fantasy Elections board. Their is no name on the ballot and the entire vote is kept anonymous. This would allow people to see secret ballots and be able to come up with up to date results that would help discussions while keeping the ballots of people who voted by secret ballot anonymous and secret. I think that this is a good compromise between the people who want to keep public ballots due to fun and those that want to see a secret ballot due to voter intimidation.

Unfortunately it doesn't tackle the tactical voting problem.  That's just as important as the anonymity of the vote in my eyes.

[Sam Spade]

You could just have the SoFA post a thread with all the ballots cast in an anonymous form post-election, that would eliminate both problems.

Though here's the fundamental issue Colin brings up and it's an important one to think about.

If all ballots are secret and no one knows the results, pretty much nothing will happen election weekend except for behind the scenes angling and maybe some speeches.  COuld this make the pre-election time more interesting?  Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it.  Just a couple of thoughts.

[Sam Spade]

Btw, considering the antics of last night, I will vote in support of this bill, though I think we should get as many amendments as possible in, in order to make this best bill possible.

I also hope the SE would consider this same type of system.

[Joe Republic]

I also hope the SE would consider this same type of system.

I'd be a hypocrite if I hadn't considered implementing this system in my own region.  However, it would be impractical to do so when there is only three members of the regional government, and two of them will almost always be candidates in a gubernatorial election.  I imagine the Southeast would come to the same conclusion.

[King]

I can only say one thing about this bill: I hope it dies miserably.  There is no way we can prevent any sort of voter fraud from this bill.  Even if we went to a group of people counting the ballots, they could all just agree to be corrupted.

I think we should keep the ballot box open and blame the victims for editing their votes, even if they were manipulated.  They should learn how to read the big bold red print that says they cannot edit or repost their votes and have them counted.

[Sam Spade]

I can only say one thing about this bill: I hope it dies miserably.  There is no way we can prevent any sort of voter fraud from this bill.  Even if we went to a group of people counting the ballots, they could all just agree to be corrupted.

I think we should keep the ballot box open and blame the victims for editing their votes, even if they were manipulated.  They should learn how to read the big bold red print that says they cannot edit or repost their votes and have them counted.

Well, if it does pass, I am sure it can and will be challenged at the SC level.

The rationale proposed by Peter Bell and Joe Republic to get around the Constitutionally-mandated is weak in my mind and could probably be defeated by a good case at the SC level.

[King]

Just a reminder to all my Senate colleagues who will be voting on this just because of the actions by the vote editing conspiracy, I remind them that it is much easier to be corrupt in a closed ballot box than on open ballot box.  And wouldn't it be easier to make voter manipulation illegal than the manipulation of votes by a committee of 3-5 people using a secret ballot system based on PMs that limit voter turnout to 100 (PM box size limits, I believe).  You guys are just asking for more work.

[Peter]

Well, if it does pass, I am sure it can and will be challenged at the SC level.

The rationale proposed by Peter Bell and Joe Republic to get around the Constitutionally-mandated is weak in my mind and could probably be defeated by a good case at the SC level.

I never proposed that rationale, and I have been completely silent on it. Make of my deliberate silence what you will.

[Sam Spade]

Well, if it does pass, I am sure it can and will be challenged at the SC level.

The rationale proposed by Peter Bell and Joe Republic to get around the Constitutionally-mandated is weak in my mind and could probably be defeated by a good case at the SC level.

I never proposed that rationale, and I have been completely silent on it. Make of my deliberate silence what you will.

Fair enough..  Joe Republic's rationale. 

[Gabu]

24 hours have passed with no debate on Sam's amendment, so I hereby call it to a vote:

2. The Committee will be comprised of three members, consisting of the Secretary of Forum Affairs, the Vice President, and the President Pro Tempore of the Senate.

3. In the event that any of the office holders listed either are themselves candidates in the election or are not present to fulfill their duty, those in the aforementioned situation shall be replaced by the highest office holder in the following list who is not a candidate present in the election and who is present to fulfill the duty:

Secretary of State
Attorney General
Secretary of Defense
Secretary of the Treasury
District 1 senator
District 2 senator
District 3 senator
District 4 senator
District 5 senator
Mideast Regional senator
Midwest Regional senator
Northeast Regional senator
Pacific Regional senator
Southeast Regional senator

All senators in favor, vote "aye"; all against, vote "nay".

---

Aye.  I can see his rationale and I personally think it makes sense.

[Colin]

Aye

[12th Doctor]

Nein

[jokerman]

Aye

[MasterJedi]

Aye

[King]

Abstain.  I plan to vote against this bill regardless of any changes that are made so my opinion on amendments is worthless.

[Nation]

You could just have the SoFA post a thread with all the ballots cast in an anonymous form post-election, that would eliminate both problems.

Though here's the fundamental issue Colin brings up and it's an important one to think about.

If all ballots are secret and no one knows the results, pretty much nothing will happen election weekend except for behind the scenes angling and maybe some speeches.  COuld this make the pre-election time more interesting?  Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it.  Just a couple of thoughts.

I think it would make pre-election time more interesting, and I think it would also require the position of SOFA to be separate from that of someone who runs/participates/votes in the fantasy elections.

tactical voting is a bigger problem than keeping it anonymous

[Sam Spade]

Aye.