Those who think National Popular Vote is what really matters... (user search)
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  Those who think National Popular Vote is what really matters... (search mode)
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Author Topic: Those who think National Popular Vote is what really matters...  (Read 10353 times)
Unconditional Surrender Truman
Harry S Truman
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« on: January 18, 2017, 05:10:48 PM »

Um, the issue isn't who won the election. We know that under the rules as currently laid out by the Consitution, Kennedy won the 1960 election. Nobody disputes that. The debate is over what metric should matter in a healthy, functioning democracy. Those (like me) who support abolishing the electoral college believe that when it comes to choosing the one elected official who gets to claim to have a mandate from the people of the nation at large, the actual will of the voters should take precedence over a deeply flawed measure of how "widespread" each candidate's vote is.

I don't oppose the electoral college because I hate Bush and Trump. I oppose the electoral college because it's an incredibly undemocratic system that doesn't count everyone's votes. It also doesn't give more power to rural areas, nor does it prevent populist demagogues from taking over. It's just a flawed system that usually matches the popular vote, but occasionally doesn't due to random chance.

This. The OP has completely missed the point; clearly Kennedy was the lawful winner of the 1960 election, just as Hayes, Harrison, Bush, and Trump won their respective elections. The argument in favor of a popular vote is not a matter of re-litigating the past, but of establishing a just government that represents all citizens equally. This is why arguments such as "the U.S. is a 'republic,' not a democracy"  and "the founders intended [xyz]" are utterly meaningless when it comes to discussions of constitutional reform, because we are not debating what the United States is, we're debating what the United States should be.
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
Harry S Truman
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Posts: 14,139


« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2017, 09:02:23 PM »

I haven't missed the point. 

I did title the post inappropriately, since I meant to target "those who insist Hillary won the 2016 election" rather than "those who insist we should scrap the constitution and  become a pure democracy."  Even though there seems to be a large overlap between the two groups.
It's impossible to know who would have won a popular vote election in 2016, and those who claim otherwise are being very silly. It's probably true that most of the "Hillary won" crowd support abolishing the electoral college, but I would be careful about assuming the inverse.
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
Harry S Truman
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Posts: 14,139


« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2017, 04:15:43 PM »

That pact can't really be binding can it? 
Of course it can. The Constitution allows the states to allocate their electors however they please, so Illinois is perfectly free to award their 20 EVs to the winner of the national popular vote. Technically, there's nothing in the Constitution that says anyone has a right to vote for president apart from the electors themselves; a state could amend their election laws to mandate the governor just flip a coin, and it would be perfectly constitutional.
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
Harry S Truman
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Posts: 14,139


« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2017, 10:05:23 PM »

If Nixon got more popular votes in 1960, he should've won, as Clinton should've won, under an ideal electoral system.
well that not how it works in america we are a republic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punctuation
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