India's Prime Ministers Survivor - Lal Bahadur Shastri is our Survivor !

[minionofmidas]

Idiot Brahman who belonged in the BJP but wasn't.

And unlike Charan Singh, Chandra Shekhar, Deve Gowda and IK Gujral, compromise choices who really didn't ever have a chance (but like VP Singh), he actually had a mandate and might not have been the failure he was if he'd been a better politician.

Haven't most Indian leaders been Brahmins?

But not necessarily idiot ones.

(And actually, no, not "most" of India's leaders have been Brahmins. Very few of those a-year-or-so interim PMs have been, although Manmohan Singh was the first non-Brahman to last a term. If you count Rajiv. Who came from an intercommunity marriage.)

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Desai

[minionofmidas]

Just for self-amusement, I'm researching everybody's caste now.

2. Gulzarilal Nanda (1964, 1966) - Gujjar
3. Lal Bahadur Shastri (1964-1966) - Kayasth (this took minimal research. Wiki says that Lal Bahadur dropped his original surname because it betrayed his (fairly high but not quite Brahman, just as I guessed when I read that) caste and he was opposed to the caste system. Wiki doesn't mention the original surname, but some other google result did... and that surname, Srivastava, led to the caste on Wiki. Shastri is a honorific.)
5. Morarji Desai (1977-1979) - Brahman
6. Chaudhary Charan Singh (1979-1980) - Jat
8. Vishwanath Pratap Singh (1989-1990) - Rajput
9. Chandra Shekhar (1990-1991) - Thakur (this too took research, found some lengthy German-language obituary that mentions it.)
10. Narasimha Rao (1991-1996) - Brahman
11. Atal Bihari Vajpayee (1996, 1998-2004) - Brahman
12. Deve Gowda (1996-1997) - Vokkaliga
13. Inder Kumar Gujral (1997-1998) - (Hindu) Khatri
14. Manmohan Singh (2004-...) - Sikh (Khatri)

[big bad fab]

Desai dammit!

I'm not a fan, but, well, just after Indira, he appeared to be "not too bad"...
And Desai isn't the only one: Rajiv was also a big disappointment, if you remember the hope before he reached power.

[Хahar 🤔]

Rajiv

[Hans-im-Glück]

Morarji Desai

[WMS]

Rajiv Gandhi.

[Sbane]

Just for self-amusement, I'm researching everybody's caste now.

2. Gulzarilal Nanda (1964, 1966) - Gujjar
3. Lal Bahadur Shastri (1964-1966) - Kayasth (this took minimal research. Wiki says that Lal Bahadur dropped his original surname because it betrayed his (fairly high but not quite Brahman, just as I guessed when I read that) caste and he was opposed to the caste system. Wiki doesn't mention the original surname, but some other google result did... and that surname, Srivastava, led to the caste on Wiki. Shastri is a honorific.)
5. Morarji Desai (1977-1979) - Brahman
6. Chaudhary Charan Singh (1979-1980) - Jat
8. Vishwanath Pratap Singh (1989-1990) - Rajput
9. Chandra Shekhar (1990-1991) - Thakur (this too took research, found some lengthy German-language obituary that mentions it.)
10. Narasimha Rao (1991-1996) - Brahman
11. Atal Bihari Vajpayee (1996, 1998-2004) - Brahman
12. Deve Gowda (1996-1997) - Vokkaliga
13. Inder Kumar Gujral (1997-1998) - (Hindu) Khatri
14. Manmohan Singh (2004-...) - Sikh (Khatri)

Except for Gujjars, they are all high caste. Khatris are more or less considered Brahmins in Punjab. Same with Thakur and Rajput  (Rabindranath Tagore was a Brahmin wasn't he?). Jats are a complicated case lol. Vokkaliga I am not sure about.

But what my previous paragraph proves is that the caste system is just another class system. They might not be Brahmins, but they are "considered" to be so. And Shastri was a FF in many ways. Much more so than Nehru of course.

[minionofmidas]

Same with Thakur and Rajput 

Thakur and Rajput are basically regional terms for the same macro-caste. And yeah, quite high caste. But not Brahmin.

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. Yes. Not sure why the family were called "Thakur", they weren't Thakurs.

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Solid, middling ground, regionally dominant farmer castes both. Certainly not "high caste", certainly not "low caste" either though certainly Shudra in any ultra-traditionalist classification (but then the same is really true of almost everybody who claims to be Kshatriya).

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Er, in a sense. And in another sense it's not. A class system with a twist.

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A total FF.

[Sbane]

Same with Thakur and Rajput

Thakur and Rajput are basically regional terms for the same macro-caste. And yeah, quite high caste. But not Brahmin.

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. Yes. Not sure why the family were called "Thakur", they weren't Thakurs.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Solid, middling ground, regionally dominant farmer castes both. Certainly not "high caste", certainly not "low caste" either though certainly Shudra in any ultra-traditionalist classification (but then the same is really true of almost everybody who claims to be Kshatriya).

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Er, in a sense. And in another sense it's not. A class system with a twist.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

A total FF.

Ah I didn't know Jats were middle caste. I thought they were a high caste, but not liked by the other high castes due to their behavior. They are very proud people though. You will see more than one "Jat pride" sticker while driving through West Delhi.

The caste system is pretty much a class system, or it certainly is today. What particular caste someone is from is not as important today but your position in society most certainly is. And so aside from less discrimination towards dalits (and I am sure it continues unabated in the villages) things haven't changed much. Only instead of using the highly complex caste system, they are using a more "modern" class system.

[minionofmidas]

It's more complicated than that... though there's a lot of that. Basically if you live outside of your and your caste's homeland, people will judge you by whether you look like a rich man or like a peasant more than what, exactly, they know about your caste. To add another layer of confusion, any touchable (for want of a better word) Shudra caste assembled in sufficient numbers in one area usually becomes perfectly respectable there... but might not be elsewhere where it exists in lower numbers. Especially if their religious customs are somewhat inorthodox from a brahmanic standpoint. This goes for Lingayats for example.

[Sbane]

It's more complicated than that... though there's a lot of that. Basically if you live outside of your and your caste's homeland, people will judge you by whether you look like a rich man or like a peasant more than what, exactly, they know about your caste. To add another layer of confusion, any touchable (for want of a better word) Shudra caste assembled in sufficient numbers in one area usually becomes perfectly respectable there... but might not be elsewhere where it exists in lower numbers. Especially if their religious customs are somewhat inorthodox from a brahmanic standpoint. This goes for Lingayats for example.

I find that in the cities you are judged more by your possessions than by your caste. People from high castes will mix with lower caste members if they are in the same class as them. If they live in the same exclusive apartment buildings, drive the same cars and so on and so forth. And the servant class is the servant class, no matter what their background was back in the village.

 

[minionofmidas]

Yeah. But what percentage of the people is that, exactly?

The servant class certainly does not think of itself as one unified servant class...

[Sbane]

Yeah. But what percentage of the people is that, exactly?

The servant class certainly does not think of itself as one unified servant class...

Yes I realize I am speaking from a "middle class" perspective.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Deve Gowda

[Хahar 🤔]

Since this is an India General Discussion thread, I'll share my predictions.

The Congress will crash and burn. In 2014, the results will show a decisive rejection of the Congress, but not much beyond that. The NDA is too narrow to win a majority on itself; as a result, there will be governmental instability of the sort that is generally seen in India when the Congress is out of power. The Prime Minister will change frequently, shifting between left and right; Varun's name will be brought up every time, but he will not become Prime Minister at any point. At the next election, Rahul and the Congress will be swept back into power.

[big bad fab]

1. Jawaharlal Nehru (1947-1964)
2. Gulzarilal Nanda (1964, 1966)
3. Lal Bahadur Shastri (1964-1966)
4. Indira Gandhi (1966-1977, 1980-1984)
5. Morarji Desai (1977-1979)
6. Chaudhary Charan Singh (1979-1980)
7. Rajiv Gandhi (1984-1989)
8. Vishwanath Pratap Singh (1989-1990)
9. Chandra Shekhar (1990-1991)
10. Narasimha Rao (1991-1996)
11. Atal Bihari Vajpayee (1996, 1998-2004)
12. Deve Gowda (1996-1997)
13. Inder Kumar Gujral (1997-1998)
14. Manmohan Singh (2004-...)

Results
Round one: Indira Gandhi 7, Gulzarilal Nanda 1
Round two: Gulzarilal Nanda 3, Atal Behari Vajpayee 2
Round three: Chandra Shekhar 5, Atal Behari Vajpayee 2, Morarji Desai 1
Round four: Inder Kumar Gujral 4, Morarji Desai 3, Atal Bihari Vajpayee 1
Round five: Atal Bihari Vajpayee 3, Deve Gowda 2, Morarji Desai 1
Round six: Morarji Desai 3 (5 in previous rounds), Deve Gowda 3 (2 in previous rounds), Rajiv Gandhi 2

Vote for the PM you want to eliminate.
Each round is open for 24 hours+.

ROUND SEVEN IS OPEN
Vote away !

[big bad fab]

A fine and contested round.
I applied the same rule as in my 20th Century History Makers Survivor: when there is a tie, the leader who gathered the biggest total of votes is eliminated.
Lewis will be pleased .

Anyway, I keep on voting for

Deve Gowda.

[minionofmidas]

And as may be guessed from something I said earlier in this thread...

I proudly cast my next vote for VP Singh.

[WMS]

I'll be consistent. Rajiv Gandhi.

[Hans-im-Glück]

Deve Gowda

[Edu]

Deve Gowda

[Sbane]

Deve Gowda

[Хahar 🤔]

Rajiv

Nobody is interested in my predictions?

[Sbane]

Rajiv

Nobody is interested in my predictions?

Remember you already told me this in the aftermath of the election. I agree with you of course, unless Rahul runs in 2014. In that case I think congress will hold on to power pretty easily. If both he and Manmohan don't run you may see the kind of instability seen in the mid 90's, though it is much less likely this time around imho.