Israel-Gaza war

[Libertas Vel Mors]

For f***'s sake! Hamas cannot be "destroyed."

All that's been literally destroyed (other than Gaza and the lives of its residents) is Israel's reputation.

If there is a deal, and all hostages are released, the priority should be rebuilding Gaza. Keep security around the border if necessary, but this needs to end.

Why can't Hamas be destroyed?

[GoTfan]

For f***'s sake! Hamas cannot be "destroyed."

All that's been literally destroyed (other than Gaza and the lives of its residents) is Israel's reputation.

If there is a deal, and all hostages are released, the priority should be rebuilding Gaza. Keep security around the border if necessary, but this needs to end.

Why can't Hamas be destroyed?

Because you can't shoot an idea, as Thomas Dewey once said.

[Progressive Pessimist]

For f***'s sake! Hamas cannot be "destroyed."

All that's been literally destroyed (other than Gaza and the lives of its residents) is Israel's reputation.

If there is a deal, and all hostages are released, the priority should be rebuilding Gaza. Keep security around the border if necessary, but this needs to end.

Why can't Hamas be destroyed?

As said before, they're more of an idea, if anything. And there will probably always be a perpetual force in Palestine that wants to exterminate Jews and Israel, especially after this conflict.

[AtorBoltox]

'You can't destroy the Tamil Tigers'

[AtorBoltox]

For f***'s sake! Hamas cannot be "destroyed."

All that's been literally destroyed (other than Gaza and the lives of its residents) is Israel's reputation.

If there is a deal, and all hostages are released, the priority should be rebuilding Gaza. Keep security around the border if necessary, but this needs to end.

Why can't Hamas be destroyed?

As said before, they're more of an idea, if anything. And there will probably always be a perpetual force in Palestine that wants to exterminate Jews and Israel, especially after this conflict.

Deeply shocking for you to suggest that exterminationist anti-semitism is an inbuilt and eternal character trait of Palestinians

[AtorBoltox]

‘There will always be a perpetual force in Palestine that wants to exterminate Jews’ sounds like something written by Ben-Gvir

[CumbrianLefty]

"We will go into Rafah even if a ceasefire is agreed" makes absolutely no actual sense does it??

So you could, from an optimistic standpoint, just see it as Bibi bulls***ting to please his audience.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

For f***'s sake! Hamas cannot be "destroyed."

All that's been literally destroyed (other than Gaza and the lives of its residents) is Israel's reputation.

If there is a deal, and all hostages are released, the priority should be rebuilding Gaza. Keep security around the border if necessary, but this needs to end.

Why can't Hamas be destroyed?

Because you can't shoot an idea, as Thomas Dewey once said.

I think it really depends on what you mean, actually.  If you mean literally “can Hamas be destroyed” or better yet merely neutralized as a threat going forward even if some rump organization persists, then I think the answer is definitely “yes.”  I’d admittedly add the caveat that it will take years rather than months and anyone who claims otherwise is a liar, a fool, or both, but the point stands.  There is recent precedent for this too.  

Look at Al-Qaeda (a much stronger more and far more global organization than Hamas consequentially took much longer to destroy), of the top guys (using a very broad definition) in Al-Qaeda pre-9/11, everyone except Saif Al-Adel has been killed or captured.  And Al-Adel is only alive b/c he basically chose to spend the rest of his life under house arrest in Iran.  Al-Qaeda is still around here and there, but not in a meaningful way.  They’re no longer a real threat and have basically been destroyed and/or absorbed into various other groups.

In that sense, Hamas can absolutely be destroyed and in much less time than Al-Qaeda took (albeit it’ll still take years imo).  Now, if you mean the broader threat of Palestinian terrorism then no, that is not going anywhere for the foreseeable future regardless of what happens to Hamas.

Remember, Hamas is an organization rather than an idea.  And Hamas is bad enough that “the next group will only be worse” argument is pretty weak tea at best.  At a certain point, some groupe are evil, violent, and dangerous enough that it becomes a distinction without a difference or that the group’s continued existence is unacceptable regardless of who replaces them.  

I will say that I fundamentally reject the idea that eliminating Hamas requires some sort of mass destruction of Palestinians in Gaza.  I don’t think that is what Israel is doing now, but I want to be clear that I am not advocating such and disagree with posters on both sides who have (for very different reasons) at times attempted to conflate the Palestinian population of Gaza with Hamas.  It is an extremely important and meaningful distinction (Hamas vs. the Palestinian civilian population in Gaza), no matter what you believe about the conflict

"We will go into Rafah even if a ceasefire is agreed" makes absolutely no actual sense does it??

So you could, from an optimistic standpoint, just see it as Bibi bulls***ing to please his audience.

He has the same problem Obama had re: invading Syria if Al-Assad used chemical weapons.  Netanyahu made a big show out of telling everyone he was going to do something that he only later realized he might not actually be willing to do given the likely consequences of said action.  So now Netanyahu can’t act like he’s backing down, but also seems to know (maybe I’m being overly optimistic here) that he can’t actually invade Rafah (at least, not in the manner he’d intended).

[Open Source Intelligence]

Twitter account of Barak Ravid, who says he's a political reporter for Axios and CNN analyst.

BREAKING: Blinken told Netanyahu the U.S. still opposes an IDF operation in Rafah without a credible plan for protecting civilians and thinks there are better options to deal with the Hamas battalions in the city other than a full scale military operation, per U.S. official.

followed by:

BREAKING: Netanyahu told Blinken during their meeting today he won't accept a deal that will include ending the war. He said if Hamas doesn't drop this demand there will be no deal and Israel will invade Rafah, per Israeli and U.S. officials.

Notice the differences in sourcing in each statement. I wonder what Israel says Blinken told Netanyahu.

My take is Netanyahu is just using maximum leverage to drive a hard bargain. We'll see if it pans out for him.

[Open Source Intelligence]

For f***'s sake! Hamas cannot be "destroyed."

All that's been literally destroyed (other than Gaza and the lives of its residents) is Israel's reputation.

If there is a deal, and all hostages are released, the priority should be rebuilding Gaza. Keep security around the border if necessary, but this needs to end.

Why can't Hamas be destroyed?

Because you can't shoot an idea, as Thomas Dewey once said.

I think it really depends on what you mean, actually.  If you mean literally “can Hamas be destroyed” or better yet merely neutralized as a threat going forward even if some rump organization persists, then I think the answer is definitely “yes.”  I’d admittedly add the caveat that it will take years rather than months and anyone who claims otherwise is a liar, a fool, or both, but the point stands.  There is recent precedent for this too.  

Look at Al-Qaeda (a much stronger more and far more global organization than Hamas consequentially took much longer to destroy), of the top guys (using a very broad definition) in Al-Qaeda pre-9/11, everyone except Saif Al-Adel has been killed or captured.  And Al-Adel is only alive b/c he basically chose to spend the rest of his life under house arrest in Iran.  Al-Qaeda is still around here and there, but not in a meaningful way.  They’re no longer a real threat and have basically been destroyed and/or absorbed into various other groups.

In that sense, Hamas can absolutely be destroyed and in much less time than Al-Qaeda took (albeit it’ll still take years imo).  Now, if you mean the broader threat of Palestinian terrorism then no, that is not going anywhere for the foreseeable future regardless of what happens to Hamas.

Remember, Hamas is an organization rather than an idea.  And Hamas is bad enough that “the next group will only be worse” argument is pretty weak tea at best.  At a certain point, some groupe are evil, violent, and dangerous enough that it becomes a distinction without a difference or that the group’s continued existence is unacceptable regardless of who replaces them.  

If you think that, good for you, I just completely disagree based on Americans' experience with the Middle East and North Africa this century, and think we get to year 2030 we're not going to see much functional difference from now as far as Israeli-Palestinian relations. The destruction of Hamas for long-term Israeli security is not something that can be judged now or even this year regardless of whether there is an operation in Rafah or not, it has to be judged minimum 5 years from now long after Netanyahu and Biden and Trump are all gone. Meanwhile Israel has made themselves more isolated internationally. I'm not sure being automatically pro-Israel will even extend into the next generation of Democratic Party leadership in this country once all the baby boomer politicians have retired and died. I think Kamala Harris is a large unknown quantity as far as what she really thinks on policy issues in comparison to Biden. If she's the next President the saving grace for Israel might be she has a Jewish husband that has over time influenced her thinking as all spouses do.

[SInNYC]

Netanhayu has made it pretty clear from day 1 that the only choices in the negotiations are either Gaza gets leveled now or it gets leveled after the hostages are released. Meanwhile, Hamas has said with slightly less force that any negotiations must leave them in power or at least safe after hostages are released.

This is why I dont put much faith in any of the negotiations that we keep hearing about.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

Netanhayu has made it pretty clear from day 1 that the only choices in the negotiations are either Gaza gets leveled now or it gets leveled after the hostages are released. Meanwhile, Hamas has said with slightly less force that any negotiations must leave them in power or at least safe after hostages are released.

This is why I dont put much faith in any of the negotiations that we keep hearing about.

I think if he was to try to go for total war in Rafah after getting the hostages back, that would probably jeopardize US support and thus lead to his government getting toppled. So that factors in a lot.

[Progressive Pessimist]

For f***'s sake! Hamas cannot be "destroyed."

All that's been literally destroyed (other than Gaza and the lives of its residents) is Israel's reputation.

If there is a deal, and all hostages are released, the priority should be rebuilding Gaza. Keep security around the border if necessary, but this needs to end.

Why can't Hamas be destroyed?

As said before, they're more of an idea, if anything. And there will probably always be a perpetual force in Palestine that wants to exterminate Jews and Israel, especially after this conflict.

Deeply shocking for you to suggest that exterminationist anti-semitism is an inbuilt and eternal character trait of Palestinians

That's not exactly what I meant, more so that there are extremists who will exploit and cultivate it whether they're Hamas or not. And vice-versa on the Israeli side wanting complete dominance of Palestine.

[Devout Centrist]

My take is Netanyahu is just using maximum leverage to drive a hard bargain. We'll see if it pans out for him.

Very interesting stuff. Very interesting. Good thing we didn’t give Israel a ton of military aid with no strings attached. Now Blinken and Biden can force Netanyahu to back down and act with more restraint

[GoTfan]

Netanhayu has made it pretty clear from day 1 that the only choices in the negotiations are either Gaza gets leveled now or it gets leveled after the hostages are released. Meanwhile, Hamas has said with slightly less force that any negotiations must leave them in power or at least safe after hostages are released.

This is why I dont put much faith in any of the negotiations that we keep hearing about.

I think if he was to try to go for total war in Rafah after getting the hostages back, that would probably jeopardize US support and thus lead to his government getting toppled. So that factors in a lot.

I think his thinking is that if he gets the hostages back (assuming they haven't been killed), then Biden's opinion will not matter because he can go all-out and reliably get the Republicans to support everything he does.

He has definitely calculated that if he can drag this out, then he gets his mate Donald back in then he has free licence to do what he likes.

[Open Source Intelligence]

Netanhayu has made it pretty clear from day 1 that the only choices in the negotiations are either Gaza gets leveled now or it gets leveled after the hostages are released. Meanwhile, Hamas has said with slightly less force that any negotiations must leave them in power or at least safe after hostages are released.

This is why I dont put much faith in any of the negotiations that we keep hearing about.

I think if he was to try to go for total war in Rafah after getting the hostages back, that would probably jeopardize US support and thus lead to his government getting toppled. So that factors in a lot.

I think his thinking is that if he gets the hostages back (assuming they haven't been killed), then Biden's opinion will not matter because he can go all-out and reliably get the Republicans to support everything he does.

He has definitely calculated that if he can drag this out, then he gets his mate Donald back in then he has free licence to do what he likes.

I more or less agree. Netanyahu knows Biden can't do anything to him, at least until the election occurs.

[CumbrianLefty]

'You can't destroy the Tamil Tigers'

The exception, not the rule.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Netanhayu has made it pretty clear from day 1 that the only choices in the negotiations are either Gaza gets leveled now or it gets leveled after the hostages are released. Meanwhile, Hamas has said with slightly less force that any negotiations must leave them in power or at least safe after hostages are released.

This is why I dont put much faith in any of the negotiations that we keep hearing about.

I think if he was to try to go for total war in Rafah after getting the hostages back, that would probably jeopardize US support and thus lead to his government getting toppled. So that factors in a lot.

I think his thinking is that if he gets the hostages back (assuming they haven't been killed), then Biden's opinion will not matter because he can go all-out and reliably get the Republicans to support everything he does.

He has definitely calculated that if he can drag this out, then he gets his mate Donald back in then he has free licence to do what he likes.

I think this reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of Netanyahu.  He just wants to keep power, anything he does in relation to US politics stems from that.  The US Presidential election is the least of his concerns right now.

[GeneralMacArthur]

Netanhayu has made it pretty clear from day 1 that the only choices in the negotiations are either Gaza gets leveled now or it gets leveled after the hostages are released. Meanwhile, Hamas has said with slightly less force that any negotiations must leave them in power or at least safe after hostages are released.

This is why I dont put much faith in any of the negotiations that we keep hearing about.

Rafah is only a small area of Gaza.  It's like the size of JFK Airport.  Even if Israel has to raze it to the ground, it's only like 10% of Gaza.  I don't think Israel should be overly concerned about the physical destruction of Rafah.  It will probably be necessary to demolish large swaths of it in order to destroy the vast tunnel network Hamas and various smuggler groups have built underneath the Palestinian side (including those going through to the Egyptian side).

The main concern with the Rafah attacks is twofold.  First is the number of innocent civilians who would die in the attacks.  Second is the humanitarian crisis it would create.  Right now hundreds of thousands of Palestinians are huddled up in Rafah, and since it hasn't been attacked yet it still has some resources they can use.  At a certain point that won't be true anymore, but how do you help them without also letting Hamas out of its little cage?  This is why Israel has proposed letting women and children/elderly males leave Rafah, because Hamas is almost entirely composed of men between the ages of 15 and 50.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Netanhayu has made it pretty clear from day 1 that the only choices in the negotiations are either Gaza gets leveled now or it gets leveled after the hostages are released. Meanwhile, Hamas has said with slightly less force that any negotiations must leave them in power or at least safe after hostages are released.

This is why I dont put much faith in any of the negotiations that we keep hearing about.

I think if he was to try to go for total war in Rafah after getting the hostages back, that would probably jeopardize US support and thus lead to his government getting toppled. So that factors in a lot.

I think his thinking is that if he gets the hostages back (assuming they haven't been killed), then Biden's opinion will not matter because he can go all-out and reliably get the Republicans to support everything he does.

He has definitely calculated that if he can drag this out, then he gets his mate Donald back in then he has free licence to do what he likes.

I think this reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of Netanyahu.  He just wants to keep power, anything he does in relation to US politics stems from that.  The US Presidential election is the least of his concerns right now.

The problem is, it was Netanyahu who made support for Israel a partisan issue in American politics. Biden is desperately trying to mitigate that, but the damage is done. And the more that American liberals learn about what Israel is as a society and polity (as opposed to what they imagined Israel to be—perhaps based on what Israel used to be), the less supportive they are.

[Open Source Intelligence]

Israelis strike a State Security building in Damascus. Reports of 8 Syrian soldiers dead.

[Devout Centrist]

Netanhayu has made it pretty clear from day 1 that the only choices in the negotiations are either Gaza gets leveled now or it gets leveled after the hostages are released. Meanwhile, Hamas has said with slightly less force that any negotiations must leave them in power or at least safe after hostages are released.

This is why I dont put much faith in any of the negotiations that we keep hearing about.

Rafah is only a small area of Gaza.  It's like the size of JFK Airport.  Even if Israel has to raze it to the ground, it's only like 10% of Gaza. 

Yeah, Israel hasn't razed the rest of Gaza so it's cool.

[GoTfan]

Netanhayu has made it pretty clear from day 1 that the only choices in the negotiations are either Gaza gets leveled now or it gets leveled after the hostages are released. Meanwhile, Hamas has said with slightly less force that any negotiations must leave them in power or at least safe after hostages are released.

This is why I dont put much faith in any of the negotiations that we keep hearing about.

I think if he was to try to go for total war in Rafah after getting the hostages back, that would probably jeopardize US support and thus lead to his government getting toppled. So that factors in a lot.

I think his thinking is that if he gets the hostages back (assuming they haven't been killed), then Biden's opinion will not matter because he can go all-out and reliably get the Republicans to support everything he does.

He has definitely calculated that if he can drag this out, then he gets his mate Donald back in then he has free licence to do what he likes.

I think this reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of Netanyahu.  He just wants to keep power, anything he does in relation to US politics stems from that.  The US Presidential election is the least of his concerns right now.

The problem is, it was Netanyahu who made support for Israel a partisan issue in American politics. Biden is desperately trying to mitigate that, but the damage is done. And the more that American liberals learn about what Israel is as a society and polity (as opposed to what they imagined Israel to be—perhaps based on what Israel used to be), the less supportive they are.

Yeah, this point is not getting enough attention. His overt appeals to US conservatives-more specifically the Republican Party-have poisoned and polarised the debate, maybe irrevocably.

[Open Source Intelligence]

Netanhayu has made it pretty clear from day 1 that the only choices in the negotiations are either Gaza gets leveled now or it gets leveled after the hostages are released. Meanwhile, Hamas has said with slightly less force that any negotiations must leave them in power or at least safe after hostages are released.

This is why I dont put much faith in any of the negotiations that we keep hearing about.

I think if he was to try to go for total war in Rafah after getting the hostages back, that would probably jeopardize US support and thus lead to his government getting toppled. So that factors in a lot.

I think his thinking is that if he gets the hostages back (assuming they haven't been killed), then Biden's opinion will not matter because he can go all-out and reliably get the Republicans to support everything he does.

He has definitely calculated that if he can drag this out, then he gets his mate Donald back in then he has free licence to do what he likes.

I think this reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of Netanyahu.  He just wants to keep power, anything he does in relation to US politics stems from that.  The US Presidential election is the least of his concerns right now.

The problem is, it was Netanyahu who made support for Israel a partisan issue in American politics. Biden is desperately trying to mitigate that, but the damage is done. And the more that American liberals learn about what Israel is as a society and polity (as opposed to what they imagined Israel to be—perhaps based on what Israel used to be), the less supportive they are.

Yeah, this point is not getting enough attention. His overt appeals to US conservatives-more specifically the Republican Party-have poisoned and polarised the debate, maybe irrevocably.

And that's different from decades of pejoratively called Likudniks in the halls of power in D.C. how?

[jaichind]

I wonder why Biden does not make the same complaint about Israel and demand Israel take in more, especially Muslim, immigrants.