Ukraine Crisis

[ag]

What are our treaty obligations with Ukraine like?

You have guaranteed its independence territorial integrity in exchange for taking its nukes. I guess, if you are not willing to put a few tank divisions in ASAP, you should give the Kiev government their nukes back.

[Yank2133]

Snowstalker pure leftist ...

You mean, ultra-rightist, don't you?

Yeah, that is more accurate.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

As you all remember, I was one of those deeply concerned about the fascist groups participating in the events and I still am.

However, that does not excuse the Russian intervention, which is a blatant breach of the international law. Such action is making already fragile situation even more dangerous, playing right into the hands of extremists, not to mention all international implications.

Snowstalker, you can't consider yourself a real opponent of imperialism if you have no problem with what is Putin doing. If you don't, then you're a hypocrite not to be taken seriously (but I guess it's too late anyway).

And btw, Russians on Crimea were not threathen.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I was just going to post "where is Tony with a Stop Saying Words! meme when you need it" but I see he just posted.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Kalwejt is spot on.

and on the back of ethnic Russians...

That, at least, is completely irrelevant to his status as an 'innocent party' or otherwise...

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Now here's a tough question: is there a single politician in Ukraine - of any persuasion - who isn't a complete idiot?

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Again, I don't think Putin is making the right decision, especially if Russian intervention ends up extending outside Crimea, and I hope he's overthrown at some point by the Russian workers (hopefully in a more leftist protest than the Euromaidan ). Obviously invading would only give more legitimacy to the far-right elements of Euromaidan.

[Famous Mortimer]

Anyway, Russia and the new Crimean government are both acknowledging that Crimea is nominally Ukraine at this point. My guess is nothing happens on the ground until the referendum at the end of the month. Best case scenario would be a strong majority in favor of independence that the Ukrainian government decides not to contest too hard.

If the ballot is seriously disputed, all bets are off.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

Kalwejt is spot on.

and on the back of ethnic Russians...

That, at least, is completely irrelevant to his status as an 'innocent party' or otherwise...

You're right, but it flowed, so I kept it.

[PiMp DaDdy FitzGerald]

I never thought there would be a time when German troops would be a positive force in the Ukraine.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

Again, I don't think Putin is making the right decision, especially if Russian intervention ends up extending outside Crimea, and I hope he's overthrown at some point by the Russian workers (hopefully in a more leftist protest than the Euromaidan ). Obviously invading would only give more legitimacy to the far-right elements of Euromaidan.

My God the cheap seats must be comfortable for you to insist on sitting in them for so long.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

One mistake Bush seemed to do was think that Putin was a great guy. As low as an opinion of Bush I had, I assumed he would have realized that Putin was a worse guy than himself. Of course, Republicans are conveniently forgetting that when they attack Obama now. Maybe Bush liked the flat tax Putin had just implemented.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

What are the chances that a deal is worked out where the Ukraine formally gives Crimea to Russia, and then the Ukraine joins NATO?

[MaxQue]

What are the chances that a deal is worked out where the Ukraine formally gives Crimea to Russia, and then the Ukraine joins NATO?

None. Putin doesn't want Russia sharing a border with NATO.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

What are the chances that a deal is worked out where the Ukraine formally gives Crimea to Russia, and then the Ukraine joins NATO?

None. Putin doesn't want Russia sharing a border with NATO.

Russia borders five NATO members already.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

What are the chances that a deal is worked out where the Ukraine formally gives Crimea to Russia, and then the Ukraine joins NATO?

None. Putin doesn't want Russia sharing a border with NATO.

And the Ukraine wants to keep Crimea. It's called a deal.

[Storebought]

One mistake Bush seemed to do was think that Putin was a great guy. As low as an opinion of Bush I had, I assumed he would have realized that Putin was a worse guy than himself. Of course, Republicans are conveniently forgetting that when they attack Obama now. Maybe Bush liked the flat tax Putin had just implemented.

The admiration on the part of the GOP was then, and is now, genuine.

[THE_TITAN]

Putin is playing a dangerous game here getting involved in Crimea. It's a pretty dire and unpredictable situation in Ukraine right now, I just hope it is resolved peacefully. But to undermine the sovereignty of Ukraine in such a blatant fashion is a surprising move even for someone as careless as Mr. Putin.

[Peeperkorn]

Putin is playing a dangerous game here getting involved in Crimea. It's a pretty dire and unpredictable situation in Ukraine right now, I just hope it is resolved peacefully. But to undermine the sovereignty of Ukraine in such a blatant fashion is a surprising move even for someone as careless as Mr. Putin.

The West won't do anything.

Just listen to the NATO press conference.

It's a win-win situation for Putin.

[Zanas]

Enter a lonely, courageous Ukrainian rebel, a leading investigative journalist. A dark-skinned journalist who gets racially profiled by the regime. And a Muslim. And an Afghan. This is Mustafa Nayem, the man who started the revolution. Using social media, he called students and other young people to rally on the main square of Kiev in support of a European choice for Ukraine. That square is called the Maidan, which by the way is an Arab word. During the first few days of the protests the students called it the Euromaidan. Russian propaganda called it, predictably enough, the Gayeuromaidan.

This part is of course hilarious. I hope it's meant in parody. As if a lonely courageous guy had started a super cool revolution by himself on #Twitter !!!1!1!! Seriously.

Snowstalker, I agree with you on the fundamentals. But you could word things better.

Of course, it's not a revolution if it's not the working people's revolution. Things will be awful when any government of pro-EU oligarchs start to implement EU austerity at its finest and the people is wholly disappointed and doesn't know what to do next.

But you have to at least acknowledge that the pro-Russia side is indeed worst in its actions than the pro-EU one. That doesn't mean that either of them is good for on the long-term for the working class though.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

But you have to at least acknowledge that the pro-Russia side is indeed worst in its actions than the pro-EU one. That doesn't mean that either of them is good for on the long-term for the working class though.

Honestly, given the brutality of Yanukovych in his response, I'm inclined to agree that the POR/Russians have done worse overall, but the Euromaidan cheerleading in this thread is something I felt warranted a response.

And yeah, that article is silly.

[Famous Mortimer]

Enter a lonely, courageous Ukrainian rebel, a leading investigative journalist. A dark-skinned journalist who gets racially profiled by the regime. And a Muslim. And an Afghan. This is Mustafa Nayem, the man who started the revolution. Using social media, he called students and other young people to rally on the main square of Kiev in support of a European choice for Ukraine. That square is called the Maidan, which by the way is an Arab word. During the first few days of the protests the students called it the Euromaidan. Russian propaganda called it, predictably enough, the Gayeuromaidan.

This part is of course hilarious. I hope it's meant in parody. As if a lonely courageous guy had started a super cool revolution by himself on #Twitter !!!1!1!! Seriously.

Snowstalker, I agree with you on the fundamentals. But you could word things better.

Of course, it's not a revolution if it's not the working people's revolution. Things will be awful when any government of pro-EU oligarchs start to implement EU austerity at its finest and the people is wholly disappointed and doesn't know what to do next.

But you have to at least acknowledge that the pro-Russia side is indeed worst in its actions than the pro-EU one. That doesn't mean that either of them is good for on the long-term for the working class though.

The new government is almost guaranteed to become unpopular. Just like Yushchenko did. When that happens though, at least they won't send snipers to shoot the protesters.

The next next election will result in a left-wing candidate coming to power. Hopefully the voters aren't stupid enough to make it Yanukovych again.

[Zanas]

The problem is of course, there is no "left-wing" whatsoever that's tolerated in this coutry as of now. I fail to see how a truly left-wing, with broad popular support, could win the election in 2 or 3 years. Plus, if there's one thing pro-EU and pro-Russia oligarchs tend to agree on, is they don't want anything resembling a left-wing candidate with popular support near them or their assets.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Enter a lonely, courageous Ukrainian rebel, a leading investigative journalist. A dark-skinned journalist who gets racially profiled by the regime. And a Muslim. And an Afghan. This is Mustafa Nayem, the man who started the revolution. Using social media, he called students and other young people to rally on the main square of Kiev in support of a European choice for Ukraine. That square is called the Maidan, which by the way is an Arab word. During the first few days of the protests the students called it the Euromaidan. Russian propaganda called it, predictably enough, the Gayeuromaidan.

This part is of course hilarious. I hope it's meant in parody. As if a lonely courageous guy had started a super cool revolution by himself on #Twitter !!!1!1!! Seriously.

Snowstalker, I agree with you on the fundamentals. But you could word things better.

Of course, it's not a revolution if it's not the working people's revolution. Things will be awful when any government of pro-EU oligarchs start to implement EU austerity at its finest and the people is wholly disappointed and doesn't know what to do next.

But you have to at least acknowledge that the pro-Russia side is indeed worst in its actions than the pro-EU one. That doesn't mean that either of them is good for on the long-term for the working class though.

The new government is almost guaranteed to become unpopular. Just like Yushchenko did. When that happens though, at least they won't send snipers to shoot the protesters.

The next next election will result in a left-wing candidate coming to power. Hopefully the voters aren't stupid enough to make it Yanukovych again.

1. I doubt that the new government would be above violence.
2. Yanukovych is not remotely left-wing, nor is there a coherent or organized left in Ukraine.

[Famous Mortimer]

Enter a lonely, courageous Ukrainian rebel, a leading investigative journalist. A dark-skinned journalist who gets racially profiled by the regime. And a Muslim. And an Afghan. This is Mustafa Nayem, the man who started the revolution. Using social media, he called students and other young people to rally on the main square of Kiev in support of a European choice for Ukraine. That square is called the Maidan, which by the way is an Arab word. During the first few days of the protests the students called it the Euromaidan. Russian propaganda called it, predictably enough, the Gayeuromaidan.

This part is of course hilarious. I hope it's meant in parody. As if a lonely courageous guy had started a super cool revolution by himself on #Twitter !!!1!1!! Seriously.

Snowstalker, I agree with you on the fundamentals. But you could word things better.

Of course, it's not a revolution if it's not the working people's revolution. Things will be awful when any government of pro-EU oligarchs start to implement EU austerity at its finest and the people is wholly disappointed and doesn't know what to do next.

But you have to at least acknowledge that the pro-Russia side is indeed worst in its actions than the pro-EU one. That doesn't mean that either of them is good for on the long-term for the working class though.

The new government is almost guaranteed to become unpopular. Just like Yushchenko did. When that happens though, at least they won't send snipers to shoot the protesters.

The next next election will result in a left-wing candidate coming to power. Hopefully the voters aren't stupid enough to make it Yanukovych again.

1. I doubt that the new government would be above violence.
2. Yanukovych is not remotely left-wing, nor is there a coherent or organized left in Ukraine.

1. What are you basing this belief on? Wishful thinking mostly.
2. Well, not to your standards, no. A candidate campaigning against austerity (regardless of how sincere) will win though.