Senate Bill: Atlasian Education Modernization Act (Rejected)

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Scott start talking here. If I start first, no one will be alive wants I finish.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

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Status: Senators have 24 hours to object to its adoption. I don't recall seeing an objection but I might be wrong since there were a lot of posts.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

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Status: A vote to come after completion of prior amendment.

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Status: Objection entered by Senator Napoleon, vote pending completion of prior amendments

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Status: Vote pending completion of prior amendments

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Status: Vote pending completion of prior amendments

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

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Status: Objection entered by Senator Napoleon

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

We are going to be spending a long time just to work our way through amendments.


See now why I don't recognize texts that aren't offered explicitly as amendments? It allows you people to debate texts and settle controversies pre-process, if resolution of issues is possible of course.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

This really got heated I see. Lets see:

56:03:
This seems acceptable. Loose guidelines with the flexibility necessary to innovate and select methods and techniques best suited to he class and situation in question, while still providing oversight. It also establishes the principals as being primarily responsible for the quality of teachers. I would go so far as to ease their ability to fire a failign teacher. This is in line with the proposals by Bill Bradley in his book, "The New American Story", which served as a guideline for my approach to the "GET Act" last Winter and Spring. There is one slight area of disagreement and that is pertaining to possibly certifying retired professionals to teach classes related to their fields. You wouldn't have a mechanic teaching english or pedophiles overrunning the joint (it is not as if education standards have any impact on that as recent history should attest) as the teacher's unions like to rave about. I mean getting a businessman to teach business, and IT guy to teach computers, a mechanic to teach automotive repair. Regions should be able to decide on whether or not to allow this or not, and thus their should be an exemption implaced in the text. I think relying on education level is an insufficient measure of teacher quality, in my opinion, but we should definitely have some kind of standards.

56:04:
Ah? No, just no. Local funding (with some federal support) and local control on most issues, with only enough oversight and guidelines to ensure federal money is being used appopriately.

56:05:
No, this by and large goes much too far in my opinion. It appears to be attempting to organize the schools like some state owned factory in the Soviet Union as opposed to the professional education environment that it should be. It exerts too much federal control and too many unnecessary requirements, when we should set a basic guidelines for receiving assistance (the goals or objectives basically) while providing the most control and as close to the teacher in the classroom as possible and less and less going back up to Nyman. I think we should empower the Principal and this amendment will instead turn them into a servant of the teacher, rather than being a servant of the students and parents looking for an advocate for the school's overall quality. The exact opposite of what we should be doing basically. 

56:06:
The Federal Gov't should leave these decisions up to the region and provide the them and more importantly the LEAs the ability to experiment with alternative models, provided they meet a minimume set of results/improvement.

56:07:
Curriculum and testing methods should also be determined at the local level, with a basic oversight regime and a set of minimum standards to ensure the federal money isn't being misused or wasted.

56:08:
I think there is a problem with the amendment in question as it doesnt appear to do what the sponsor desires with it.

Private Schools:

Banning Tuition - No.
Gov't funding them all - No, we shouldn't be funding parochial schools, nor should we put them out of business either.

The approach to the private schools by almost all of you guys is just pure insane. It is as if you are more concerned about closing off the only escape hatch then fixing the problems that make it so damn appealing in the first place. The kids won't stay young while many of you guy's ideas get adopted and fail. They will grow up and graduate from a crappy school or drop out, only to then lead a life of poverty and possibly ending up in jail. If a Region, thinks that school choice is an option to be placed on the table, then by all means go for it. I mean what the hell Scott? Is murdering private education the primary focus of education reform? I was of the opinion that it was white flight that f'ed up education in Detroit, not the Charter schools they foolishly refused to allow a few years ago. I don't see how you guys can in good conscience deny school choice before fixing the broke public schools first. Only in the most isolated of echo chambers could that possibly make sense.

We should empower and provide the flexibility to the Regions and LEAs to experiment and discover the best ways to acheive results and improvement for all the people in their regions. I am disappointed by TNF's negative opinion of the Region's taking the lead on this issue. I am of the opinion that the hard work done by members of his party and members of my party working together in the IDS or that of Scott and the various figures in the NE would provide a clear advocacy for the contrary opinion in this case. That is more work to be done and there are areas where the Federal Government can and should provide support, but that should be the limit of our involvement.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

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Local funding will never be able to address the disparities in education. This is why Atlasia is so far behind -- the federal government won't accept its responsibility to fund education.

And that is why we can and should supplement to the extent necessary to account for that disparity, but within the limits I outlined. Sorry for not being clear on that, there were a lot of points to respond to.  

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_council

'Too much federal control' is kind of rich when you consider that my amendment basically turns control of the schools over to the teachers themselves. That's a lot more 'small government' than whatever it is being proposed elsewhere in this thread.

But you are dictating this structure onto the Regions and LEAs, when that should be up to their choice. What else would that be called save for exerting federal control? As the debate has proceeded to center around, there is a problem with teacher quality and your structure would only serve to make that problem worse. Hence the comparison to the Soviet Factory, an archetype for innefficiencies. Advocacy for the teachers is one thing, but remember they aren't slaving in a factory to produce iron so some fat cat can get rich, they are working to educate the next generation for the benefit of society. You go too far in the former and the plant closes, you got too far in the latter and kids get screwed.

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Why?

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Why?

Because as Napoleon said, every Region has a different character and has different problems facing them in education. Not to mention different economic mixes and different employment needs. Also every student learns differently, has different talents and different dreams. There are some disparities you can't level by Federal fiat. In terms of the education itself, there is no one uniform education that will work for everyone or allow them to best meet their needs. Technology provides enormous opportunities to specialize learning and best meet the invidualized needs of students. Experimentation will create diverse models, more effective teching techniques, better curriculum and and testing methods that have some purpose, so that more students can be reached in the classroom and more will be able to learn and break that cycle of poverty. It isn't just about money, money is important, but that is only part of an education reform forumula. At some point, as with all expenditures you have diminshing returns and therefore you have to get creative to keep reaching more students and keep uplifting more people. Otherwise you will always be leaving somebody behind.

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Sorry, but the Regions are far too prone to inactivity or mismanagement to trust with such a vital issue as the education of Atlasian children.

Will centralizing authority in Nyman, fix that problem? No, and you don't want to fix it. You want the Regions abolished if I am not mistaken, correct? The problem is the same as in real life. Nobody cares about elections for mayor, town council, water resources, utilities commissions, zoning boards, and Boards of Education, and instead focus on the top of the pyramind, even as the majority of decisions effecting their kids education, where they work, what they drink and how they are kept safe are being made by those local officials. Monied interests can sweep in and buy these low turnout races at the local level and then people turn upward and farther away to seek redress. Sooner or later though the money creeps up and guess who is going to have more power in the halls of congress, the machine shop worker or the man with a billion dollars in a brief case. At least you can walk to city hall and waive sign. Doing that at the Federal level is much harder. We have to change the culture and move towards one that is locally focused. If 100% of Wake County voters turned out in 2009, instead of 11%, do you think the GOP would have won and then been able to abolish the county's decades old integration policy? 15% turned out in 2011 and that produced a 1 seat Democratic majority. The left is missing the ball big time, here.

That is why the leftwing model of centralizing authority is misguided, especially in a large country such as this. I love some of the things they do in North Dakota and Alaska, many of which would be considered Socialist if appraised honestly. I wish all the states would look to some of their examples. I would most certainly prefer that if we must have more government, that it occur as close to the citizens as possible because then it is much easier to organize resistance at the local level then 1,000 miles away. If people focused at the bottom of the pyramid and understood that is where the important decisions are being made and concerned themselves at the local level, they could exert far more influence over policy centered at the local level then with it centralized by the Feds.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

56:03 has been adopted.

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Status: A vote is now open on the above amendment, please vote Aye, Nay or Abstain.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

NAY

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Vote on Amendment 55:04 by TNF:

Aye (1): TNF
Nay (: Gass3268, HagridoftheDeep, MaxQue, Napoleon, NC Yankee, sbane, Scott and TJ in Cleve
Abstain (0):

Didn't Vote (1): Kalwejt

Amendment 56:04 has been rejected.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

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Status: Rejected

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Status: Withdrawn

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Status: Withdrawn

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

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Status: A vote is now open on the above on the above amendment, please vote Aye, Nay or Abstain.

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Status: Objection entered by Senator Napoleon, Vote compending completion of prior amendment

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Status: Objection filed by Napoleon, vote pending completion of prior amendments.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

NAY

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

As I said we should allow for enough flexibility so as to allow for experimentation and the creation of alternative models could potentially help special needs kids, children with learning disabilities as well as the general student population learn more effectively, and and rigidly imposing a structure from Nyman, will make that impossible. Therefore I urge the Senators to vote against Amendment 56:06.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I could possibly go for tying a properly worded 180 day requirement to federal funding, with a mechanism for an exception to be granted to a particular LEA or Region provided they can prove that a model under that number can yield greater benefit to the students in the quality and/or content of the education being received.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I could possibly go for tying a properly worded 180 day requirement to federal funding, with a mechanism for an exception to be granted to a particular LEA or Region provided they can prove that a model under that number can yield greater benefit to the students in the quality and/or content of the education being received.

 Would that require me to withdraw this amendment and offer another one?

Amendments cannot be withdrawn once they have been put to a vote.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

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How does this look?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I have considerable issues with the original clause two. Particularly as it relates to the health care mandate it contains, which would naturally come into conflict with the requirements of Fritzcare, which theoretically would ensure they already are covered.

As for the lunch mandate, don't we already have that in place as it is? I am sort of confused about its purpose and most certainly what would be accomplished with the requirement. I am not aware of a school that doesn't provide lunch.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

We are getting lost in the weeds here on the present vote.

My current count:
AYe: Gass TNF

Nay: Hagrid, Maxy sbane Yankee Scott


We are voting on 56:06 by TNF

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I am really conflicted on the testing issue.


WE need to measure to ensure progress is being made, but the way we measure doesn't work. We need new forms and ways to test. Sbane is right that we should move towards measuring progress over the year instead of measuring them agaisnt some arbitrary line in the sand and then cutting funding to those who aren't proficient without considering to where they started at. On the other hand Scott is right about giving the Region's flexibility so that they can develop those alternative testing methods.

Some parts of Nappy's first amendment are good, but others are concerning.

I need to look at the other two more closely.

And don't forget we are voting on 56:06 right now.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Or we can oversee their testing methods and use them to monitor progress over time.


If we were to do a seperate federal testing, then it most definately shouldn't be the current bs. What is that test that was used nationwide I think for fourth and seventh graders a few years back? The one that basically showed education was crappy everywhere?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Or we can oversee their testing methods and use them to monitor progress over time.


If we were to do a seperate federal testing, then it most definately shouldn't be the current bs. What is that test that was used nationwide I think for fourth and seventh graders a few years back? The one that basically showed education was crappy everywhere?

National Assessment of Educational Progress or something like that, NAEP for short, that is what I was thinking of.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Scott are you planning to pull your amendment 56:08 to gut the bill?

This current vote ends tomorrow. We cannot keep doing these five days at a time or we will never finish.

Also I am going to go ahead and offer this amendment:

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I am willing to consider including a day length requirement but we are debating a million topics at once and we got until Christmas at these rate before we have to consider my amendment. I included the bottom's so Nappy's school lunch changes will be safe.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Yankee, can't you open multiple amendment votes concurrently if the amendments are non-conflicting (as TNF's are, if I remember correctly)?

I'll consider it but even that only works like for two or three at a time. I don't recall it ever being done on more then that at once. They can barely keep track of the one. What I really need is people to start checking these threads daily from the Noticeboard and if there is a vote, voting on it quickly. I send PMs but they are becoming more and more useless as time goes by.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

This is moderate heroism at its worst, though.  If Napoleon's standardized testing amendment passes, I probably won't even vote for the final bill, since that proposal completely obliterates one of our top priorities for reform.

Calm down Scott, this bill is far from over.