Abortion

[Brambila]

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There are two parts to your first point. I feel it is better to answer the second part of your first point, and then answer the first part of your first point. So, firstly, I understand your premis, but there's a flaw. It is unarguable that the fetus is a life- a life does not need a mind. Jellyfish are alive, and they don't have minds. What is the criteria for life? If you open up any biology book, it will usually have the following four requirements: Metabolism, Reproduction (or potential of, since newborns cannot reproduce), Stimulation, and Growth. The fetus metabolises, the fetus stimulates, and the fetus grows, and has the potential to reproduce. Therefore, the fetus is a life. The second question is, "is the fetus a human?" The answer is yes because of it's DNA and biogenesis. Firstly, let's look at it's DNA. Every organism has it's own distinct form of DNA, and every species has it's own type of DNA. The type of DNA the fetus has is not different from a newborns- they have the same DNA, the homo saepien DNA. If that was true, the fetus would mutate at birth. Of course, this is not true.

For your first part of your second point, the fetus does have a potential to percieve and to have a future, just as the person in a coma. The person in a coma percieved, willed, and thought, however, that was past. THe point is what state the human is in at the present time.

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Allow me to give you another argument, in context to all the other arguments we've been discussing. There have been medical cases where a fetus- from very early on in the pregnancy, has been in a state of unconsciousness, and even after it is born is still in state of unconsciousness. The child may stay at this state of unconsciousness until death, or will awake. Either way, the results are within days after birth, since birth is such a traumatic event. At any rate, would it be just to kill this newborn child? It is a coma, and has no past thoughts, will, perceptions, et cetera.

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A newborn doesn't know anything of moral value. A middle-to-late term fetus doesn't know anything of moral value. People in temporary vegetative states don't know anything about moral value. Further, infants born in comas do not have subjective preference, as I've already pointed out.

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I don't recall quoting religious leaders... I mean, I stated that the Pope is against the death penalty and abortion, but you were the one who brought the point up.

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That's incorrect. The Pope's job is always to pray for peace. Pope Pius XII prayed for peace in World War II. He begged the Americans and Germans to have a peaceful resolution. Pope Clement VI asked Francis I of France and Holy Roman Emperor Charles V to make a peaceful resolution in northern Italy. Obviously, the war went on between American and Germany, and between Francis and Charles, and they didn't sin. Catholic don't believe that you must follow the Pope's opinion. Not all the Catholics I know disagree with death penalty- why? Becuase it's not dogmatic. However, abortion is dogmatic.  The Catholic Church --as does several other denominations and religions-- has made it very clear even before Abortion was an issue that human life begins at conception and killing it would be against God's law. I respect the Catholic Church's teaching. However, in the event that the Pope prays for peace and tries to convince leaders to make peaceful resolutions, it's not dogmatic unless the Pope makes an official dogmatic infalliable statement, or bull, on it. The Pope wasn't picking sides like the American anti-war protesters were, the Pope was simply trying to make peace between the quarrelling nations. He even told Saddam Hussein to surrender so that no further bloodshed was made during the air raids of March 19th 2003.

[CTguy]

Anti-war protestors weren't picking sides either.  They wanted peace as much as the Pope did.  The point wasn't what the pope said but what you have been saying and the fact that you only quote him (or make his points for him) when it's convenient for your political philosophy...  which is quite sad...  

Especially since we have a separation of Church and State.  I could care less what the Pope has to say and I was raised Catholic.  In fact, I find him rather annoying.

[Brambila]

Okay, whatever. Are you going to answer my question or not?

"How is the fetus not a human being? Biogenesis proves the fetus is a human being, the fetus is a homosaepiaens, and is alive. How, then, is it not a human being?!"

[CTguy]

I don't want to answer that question until I read up on the topic.  I have not made up my mind either way on this since I have never really thought about it.  But even if that were true I would probably still support abortion rights because I think it is a personal choice that impacts no-one else.  

[Brambila]

THANK GOD YOU RESPONDED TO ME. I FEEL SO ACKNOWLEDGED!

[CTguy]

Anything to get you to stop whining.

[??????????]

Typical liberal arguments :

Conservative : I think abortion is murder

Liberal response : You're anti-woman!!!

Conservative : Homosexuality disgusts me

Liberal response : You're a bigot that hates women, blacks and every other minority alive!

Conservative : I'm from the south and have no shame in saying that.

Liberal Response:  I bet you are you racist pig! I bet you wear sheets to don't you?


As you see most liberals on this board use these arguments, (ct guy), instead of trying to have a thoughtful debate they go right for the throat. Most mainstream Republicans are fed up with being cordial to Democrats and getting stabbed in the back in return.

[Brambila]

Well, I don't know. Beef is certianly being very mature.

[Gustaf]

Typical liberal arguments :

Conservative : I think abortion is murder

Liberal response : You're anti-woman!!!

Conservative : Homosexuality disgusts me

Liberal response : You're a bigot that hates women, blacks and every other minority alive!

Conservative : I'm from the south and have no shame in saying that.

Liberal Response:  I bet you are you racist pig! I bet you wear sheets to don't you?


As you see most liberals on this board use these arguments, (ct guy), instead of trying to have a thoughtful debate they go right for the throat. Most mainstream Republicans are fed up with being cordial to Democrats and getting stabbed in the back in return.

Ehh..yeah, b/c Republicans are always so thoughtful and relaxed on these issues? 'You're a Northern snob!', 'You're undermining the moral structure of society!', 'You're supporting paedophiles!', etc, etc...the hypocrisy of posts like that is unbelievable.

And my repsonses would be:

You're entitled, you're a bigot who hates homosexuals and good for you.

[??????????]

I don't hate them, I hate their lifestyle. Anyways, we'll see what side is right when they face God.

[Gustaf]

I don't hate them, I hate their lifestyle. Anyways, we'll see what side is right when they face God.

No, you hate THEM, since they're defined as a group by the characteristic you hate.

[??????????]

Did Jesus hate Mary Magdelene or her lifestyle? You can hate someones lifestyle and not the person.

[Gustaf]

Did Jesus hate Mary Magdelene or her lifestyle? You can hate someones lifestyle and not the person.

Jesus wasn't a very hating sort of chap. That was kind of his thing, you know...

I still think that if you so vividly, stubbornly and uncompromisingly denounces a group like you do then you're also denouncing every individual belongong to that group in the same way.

[??????????]

Ok fine Jesus disliked Mary Magdelene for being a prostitute, but that doesn't mean he hated HER.

[Gustaf]

Ok fine Jesus disliked Mary Magdelene for being a prostitute, but that doesn't mean he hated HER.

OK, so other than thinkíng that gays don't have a right to existence, are comparable to paedophiles, are helping to ruin society, spreading evil and should burn in hell, you don't hate THEM. OK, then, makes sense.

[??????????]

Quit putting words in my mouth. I said I hate their lifestyle. And yes, if they continue with their lifestyle they will be condemned by God. And I never said they were like pedophiles. I think Brambilla said that.

[CTguy]

Typical liberal arguments :

Conservative : I think abortion is murder

Liberal response : You're anti-woman!!!

Conservative : Homosexuality disgusts me

Liberal response : You're a bigot that hates women, blacks and every other minority alive!

Conservative : I'm from the south and have no shame in saying that.

Liberal Response:  I bet you are you racist pig! I bet you wear sheets to don't you?


As you see most liberals on this board use these arguments, (ct guy), instead of trying to have a thoughtful debate they go right for the throat. Most mainstream Republicans are fed up with being cordial to Democrats and getting stabbed in the back in return.

You are far from a mainstream republican.  Htmldon would be an example of a mainstream republican.  You would be an example of a zealous christian fanatic that no-one does nor should take seriously... your 146 IQ notwithstanding...  ahaha, yeah right.

[Gustaf]

Quit putting words in my mouth. I said I hate their lifestyle. And yes, if they continue with their lifestyle they will be condemned by God. And I never said they were like pedophiles. I think Brambilla said that.

OK, sorry then, you're easy to mix up. But apart from that nothing was wrong with my post, now was there? And it in no way changes my argument. And you don't put words in people's mouth with your constant attacks on 'liberals' and 'Democrats'? Like the 'liberal argument' post?

[CTguy]

I just looked back at all the posts, it is true that Brambilla was the only one who compared gays to pedophiles and has said most of the extremist rhetoric, but I wouldn't be suprised if StatesRights agreed with him and just didn't want to sound as idiotic as brambilla.

[migrendel]

Mary Magdalene was never called a prostitute in the Bible. This is often repeated hearsay. The confusion can be for one of two reasons: a) Mary was from Magdala, a town with a rather seedy reputation, and people made a mistake based upon her origin, or b) this is part of an attempt to discredit a leading and devoted disciple of Jesus, probably because she was a woman.

[CTguy]

The bible shouldn't even matter.  I find it really offensive that people bring religion into political discussions.  We have a separation of Church and State.  As someone who is an atheist, I find it repugnant that laws that impact me (albeit abortion doesn't) even consider religion when drafted.  

Why did I have to pledge allegiance under God growing up in school when I don't believe in God?  

[migrendel]

You were coerced, CTGuy, by a state government which refused to abide the Constitution which governs it. You were wronged, and let us hope that the wrong is righted by our Supreme Court this year.

[CTguy]

I doubt it will be.  Look how organized the religious fanatics are.

[12th Doctor]

Quit putting words in my mouth. I said I hate their lifestyle. And yes, if they continue with their lifestyle they will be condemned by God. And I never said they were like pedophiles. I think Brambilla said that.

I don't think that using the word hate in this context is proper if you wish to convey the fact that you find there life-style sinful or wrong.  Christ didn't hate anything or anyone.  Hate is a very powerful word.  i would use it far more sparingly than you have and certainly not tin this context.

[12th Doctor]

Mary Magdalene was never called a prostitute in the Bible. This is often repeated hearsay. The confusion can be for one of two reasons: a) Mary was from Magdala, a town with a rather seedy reputation, and people made a mistake based upon her origin, or b) this is part of an attempt to discredit a leading and devoted disciple of Jesus, probably because she was a woman.

Truth, but that is the tradition none the less and has been taught, as far as we know, since the very beginings of the Church.