Opinion of Memphis (user search)
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  Opinion of Memphis (search mode)
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Author Topic: Opinion of Memphis  (Read 36676 times)
Bacon King
Atlas Politician
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*****
Posts: 18,833
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.63, S: -9.49

« on: April 23, 2013, 06:13:21 PM »

So... should we add a C to LGBTQQIAAP now?

What's the P? Did I miss out on the new gay thing?

Pansexual?
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Bacon King
Atlas Politician
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 18,833
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.63, S: -9.49

« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2013, 09:36:51 PM »

Until now I've watched this from the sidelines but I think I've collected my thoughts enough at this point to express my full opinion. First off, I think almost everyone on both sides have been making a lot of unverifiable assumptions and implications, which is a bit silly.

Memphis doesn't understand transgenderism. Most Americans don't. My browser's spellchecker doesn't even understand that it's a word, because it placed a squiggly red line underneath it. It's a relatively new concept that seems "weird" for many people because it strongly contradicts how they were socialized, and that's not something someone can always change at-will. It's not something that one can even comprehend changing, even. Do I think Memphis's views are correct? No. Does the simple fact that he holds them justify, to any extent, the outrage against him? I don't really think so.

I also saw a few sexist comments Memphis made that I don't agree with, yeah, but that doesn't call for a witch hunt either. The viewpoint he's describing is very common among men, from my own observations. It's not something most men would articulate in person, and certainly not in public, but it's there. I'm not surprised by this latent misogyny especially because Memphis is a fellow Tulane alum. Maybe other colleges are the same, I don't know, but this attitude was so ubiquitous among both men and women on campus that even I, for a while, began to assume that it's just a part of how people usually are.

So I disagree with him, but I understand where he's coming from. I think he should at least get credit for being able to articulate his beliefs on gender, though, because it demonstrates he has the self-awareness to understand his opinion on an issue that, for most men, is rarely more than an unchangeable subconscious assumption. I can't decide if that makes it better or worse. One on hand, he's shown the potential for acceptance. On the other, it kinda reminds me of this guy. The rape stuff was really bad, too, but I'm not sure if he fully realized the implications of what he was saying (if so that's really horrible, but if not, the instant abrasive reaction didn't really help him see flaw in his reasoning).

I suppose that displaying the pictures was also in bad taste- not because he's showing them, but because he's showing them to the Atlas Forum. Honestly, assuming he's tagged in those pictures then anyone who is memphis's friend would be able to see those people anyway. Similarly, there's quite a few of you on my friends list, who can see pictures of girls I know, but that doesn't mean I did anything wrong. The bad part is really the context, posting images of women while proving you're not sexist. And that really highlights what's been the biggest source of outrage here: Memphis is really bad about putting his foot in his mouth.

But anyway, a question for Nathan et al: is this how you normally respond to people who refer to trans people negatively? I really hope not, because this is a horrible bandwagon that would only be justifiable if he was, like, a literal Nazi. Someone even implied that he wanted to kill off everyone with a blue avatar earlier! Honestly, what the [Inks]? That's insane.

And even if you do believe such behavior is justified, it's still utterly ridiculous. If you think he's in the wrong then educate him, tell him your story, try to get him to understand what it's like to be in your shoes. People such as memphis, you can't expect them to accept and understand transgenderism through direct pressure or through threat of exile from the public sphere via marginalizing their views. You can't expect them to have an epiphany overnight. Social acceptance is something that grows with time, within individuals as well as society at large. You transgendered folks are fighting against a very extensive history of cisnormate hegemony, and attitudes like that don't change overnight - just look at how difficult of a time homosexuality is still having after all these years.

I'm not intending to single anyone out here, and I fully acknowledge that what I'm about to say is a generalization and borderline stereotypical. But honestly, as my lesbian roommates would say, "y'all are acting so trans," and I know many others of various genders and orientations who would agree with that sentiment. If you're not aware of transgenderism's most common stereotypes, including (especially?) from the groups you share an acronym with: transgendereds are often considered to be bombastic and self-righteous to the extreme, who view pretentiously themselves as superior and enlightened compared to everyone else, who view the world in a with-us-or-against-us mentality, and who often play the victim card at the first chance. I do not possess this belief myself; I would never presume to judge an entire group of people in such broad strokes, especially of such a negative tone. However, I hear this view expressed from enough people to know it is widespread and not isolated to my own greater peer group. I've even heard serious suggestions from three unrelated people that "LGB should kick out T" because they consider the above stereotypes to be true and believe the entire movement is being held back as a result.

This is the first time I've read, firsthand, transgenderism defended against someone who denied its status as a legitimate thing. It's been vicious. Needlessly vicious. And it instantly brought to mind all the associated stereotypes. Maybe none of you guys are normally like this, and I'm probably horrible for bringing this up anyway but I just want to help. I do support you guys. I do think Memphis was wrong. But the outrage against him was ridiculous. I know nine people who would be allies of the transgendered movement but for the fact that its members drove them off for various reasons. I'm pretty sure you guys lost several potential allies here. I know I have no right to tell anyone what they should do, but I believe it would be much preferable if you didn't match hostility with hostility. I didn't read every post of every thread but I didn't see anyone try to explain on a personal level their "story" of transexuality to memphis, it was just insults, hostile banter, and the treatment of an emotional and personal issue as if it was something quantifiable. Maybe I shouldn't be making this into a bigger issue, I'm just trying to explain that, I don't know, even isolated incidents can justify stereotypes for life. On some level, even, I'm pretty sure I had to write this all out because that allowed me to think about it consciously, and had I not done so I probably would have taken this incident and used it as the rationalization to get on board with my trans-hating roomies.

Eh, this entire huge post will probably make both sides hate me because I'm trying to define where I stand on complicated issues and be helpful in a way that probably makes me sound like a douche. But really, even if this request is naive, hopeless, and cliche, I ask of both parties involved here: can't we all just accept each other and get along?
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Bacon King
Atlas Politician
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*****
Posts: 18,833
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.63, S: -9.49

« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2013, 02:54:26 AM »
« Edited: April 25, 2013, 03:00:03 AM by Bacon King »

Thanks, everyone, for the responses; a few specific things I'd like to address:

(I'm not sure I appreciate being named before an 'et al' or treated as some sort of coordinator or ringleader).

I honestly had no intentions of implying anything of the sort. Smiley I figured it was the best way to refer to "Memphis opponents," I was trying to be serious so I didn't want to address you all as the "asexual trans victimologists" and it would have been clunky to list multiple names. In my mind you were the best person to refer to because of the volume of your posts as well as the obvious thought you put in them.


I officially nominate you as Best Newbie Ever.
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Bacon King
Atlas Politician
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 18,833
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.63, S: -9.49

« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2013, 06:14:03 AM »
« Edited: April 25, 2013, 06:15:37 AM by Bacon King »

BaconKing, I see your point though. I argued that side myself many times. I simply think of it as a judgment call. In this case I think Memphis has had plenty of chances - several people have tried to explain the concept of empathy or patriarchy to him. He has approached this with the attitude that anyone who cares about women isn't a proper man and doesn't get laid. I think he has exhausted any goodwill on it, basically. Beyond that I think this is a sufficiently socially liberal forum that it should be ok for people to actually stand up for this issue. I'm all for moderate heroism when it's appropriate but I'm also enough of one to abandon even that principle when I deem it best. Tongue

Honestly, Gustaf, our views and attitudes appear to be identical; the only difference is how I made my judgement call.

Our disagreement seems to be one of perspective. For me, memphis isn't just an internet bigot or whatever, he's someone I can identify with. My formative years were also spent in Southern suburbia and all his friends in the pictures look like they'd fit in perfectly with my own social group.

I mean, we even went to the same school - IIRC, he graduated the semester before I first attended - and my experiences at that university have shaped my identity and beliefs more than anything else has. We studied in the same classrooms, lived in the same dorms, drank at the same bars, partied in the same frat houses, and probably even had one-night-stands with girls from the same sororities. Now that I think about it we probably even have mutual friends, though him and I have never done the "who-do-you-know" thing.

Ultimately, I can see myself in his situation. In fact, it could easily have been me in this situation, if a few specific events in my life didn't happen they way that they did. I understand why he holds his opinions because I once shared many of them and probably reached them for the same reasons; I understand his reactions because mine would have, for the most part, been fairly similar. Hell, that's why I cared enough to make a 1,200 word post in the first place. I made my suggestions because they're what would have worked best if it was me.

The big picture is that transgenderism (and gender equality on the whole) has a long way to go before it's fully accepted, especially in places like the Southern US where men and women have very clearly defined gender roles and even the most progressive folks hold a "separate-but-equal" duality view and don't understand how someone could see it any other way. If that's going to change, people like memphis and myself are potential allies who need to be won over. And for my two cents, that's an infinitely greater factor here than ideological forum purity.



But really, Gustaf, calling me a moderate hero? Ouch Sad
Tongue
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Bacon King
Atlas Politician
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 18,833
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.63, S: -9.49

« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2013, 08:54:30 PM »

The term 'armchair philosopher' really confuses me. I mean, 'armchair general' obviously makes sense, but what, outside of certain subdivisions like political philosophy and such, would the alternative to an 'armchair' philosopher be, exactly?

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Bacon King
Atlas Politician
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 18,833
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.63, S: -9.49

« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2013, 03:27:28 AM »

Me, catching up with this thread:

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