Israel-Gaza war

[lfromnj]

Folks, can we just stop with the enormously toxic practice of claiming certain folks have mental illnesses based on conjecture?

Thanks.

I still think its a valid political belief but the prevalence of mental illness among non Muslim Palestinian supporters can't be understated.

[Wiswylfen]

Yes, it is often difficult to understand that conversations take place in a context and that this thread is on its 264th page.

And I took into account the context available: the post, and the poll it linked to. Of course I don't know what you've said "over direct messages" and I have no idea why you think I am supposed to know.

What, the Gazan war effort? The Israeli one, as the past 264 pages have shown, involves discriminate bombings (each individual one having a justification provided to the Israeli court system and if necessary the US military) and shootings at armed combatants.

'Mentally ill' is perhaps too strong (Devils30 was, in my understanding, referring to the profile of protesters in the US, rather than everyone holding an opinion critical of the war), but certainly, like...extremely immature? Those who are criticizing the war effort are speaking in the same tones as  little boys who insist that they don't like little girls, no, really. They're obviously speaking their truth, but we know what events would change their minds with 98% certainty, so it is very difficult to take these utterings seriously. Of course if there were a foreign government trying to kill them because of where they lived they would support whatever efforts it took to displace that government. I kind of appreciate Wiswylfen being ultra-consistent and voicing his disapproval of the Allied war effort in WW2, but in real war efforts this attitude invariably retreats to a tiny minority (and good thing, too).

I could maybe respect individuals who were citing the opinions of actual generals and military experts, but this is never what we actually see (where we have statements from figures in the US military establishment it is almost invariably awe that there are so few civilian casualties); similarly, comparisons with similar recent battles suggest the casualty count is very low. Instead, we are meant to believe that a war where the number of civilian casualties has exceeded some number is ipso facto illegitimate, or that a war effort where the ethnic identities of casualties are known beforehand is ipso facto a genocide. Both of these opinions are absurd, mostly trotted out disingenuously as a result of (or pretending) ignorance of other wars, and I have a very deep and abiding disrespect for them.

Bizarre lies and dissembling, was it? I do like you denying the killing of unarmed civilians (including hostages waving white flags)—once again, you're denying reality because you don't like it and want to live in a world where 'Palestinianism' is doomed. So much for that honesty, defending the indefensible when other pro-Israel posters would ignore it. But that's not the only example: your post is made up almost completely of things that aren't true.

You claim that "in real war efforts" my attitude—which is to say, of opposition to killing civilians—is that of a "tiny minority": this is false. During the Second World War public opinion was divided on retaliatory bombing of German civilians, and support for it was strongest in unaffected areas. This was despite the best efforts of the government and press to drum up support.

You claim that "the casualty count is very low" compared with "similar recent battles": this is also false. On this false claim you go on to tell us that "we are meant to believe that a war where the number of civilian casualties has exceeded some number is ipso facto illegitimate, or that a war effort where the ethnic identities of casualties are known beforehand is ipso facto a genocide"—indeed, both of these opinions are absurd and disingenuous. But they are not being 'trotted out' by those who are critical of Israel.

What we have seen is the numerical definition of genocide employed in reverse: that, because the number of civilian casualties has not exceeded some number (in the case I recall, a completely incorrect one that actually excluded casualties in Gaza since October), it therefore cannot be genocide. You might say we are meant to believe that a war where the number of civilian casualties has not exceeded some number is ipso facto legitimate and not a genocide. But I do not, because genocide is not 'when a lot of people die' (though tens of thousands is 'a lot').

Indeed some of us are beyond romance. And, indeed, some of us are consistent. You say "'mentally ill' is perhaps too strong (Devils30 was, in my understanding, referring to the profile of protesters in the US, rather than everyone holding an opinion critical of the war)" having previously said that you are "really only saying (and I think Devils30 is only saying) that anti-Semitism and mental illness are common among those who criticize the Israeli war effort in Gaza". Is this another matter of you denying reality, or just one of you forgetting what you wrote less than 24 hours ago?

But never let it be said that I don't give credit where it's due: you are completely correct that Israel is not indiscriminately bombing civilians. Israel is deliberately bombing civilians, using the residence of just one Hamas member—not even taking into account, despite by their own admission knowing, whether or not they're there at the time of the attack—as cover.

[Horus]

Folks, can we just stop with the enormously toxic practice of claiming certain folks have mental illnesses based on conjecture?

Thanks.

[Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!]

US and UK doctors in Washington to warn of IDF’s ‘appalling atrocities’ in Gaza:

A delegation of American and British doctors is in Washington DC to tell the Biden administration the Israeli military is systematically destroying Gaza’s health infrastructure in order to drive Palestinians out of their homes.

The doctors, who have recently returned from volunteering at Gaza’s besieged hospitals, are expected to meet White House officials and senior members of Congress this week to warn that pledges of increased aid to Palestinians under bombardment are largely meaningless without an immediate ceasefire to allow safe distribution of food and the revival of healthcare services.

Professor Nick Maynard, the former director for cancer services at Oxford University who worked at the al-Aqsa hospital in central Gaza at the beginning of the year, accused the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) of “appalling atrocities”.

“The IDF are systematically targeting healthcare facilities, healthcare personnel and really dismantling the whole healthcare system,” he said.

“It’s not just about targeting the buildings, it’s about systematically destroying the infrastructure of the hospitals. Destroying the oxygen tanks at the al-Shifa hospital, deliberately destroying the CT scanners and making it much more difficult to rebuild that infrastructure. If it was just targeting Hamas militants, why are they deliberately destroying the infrastructure of these institutions?”

The UN says none of Gaza’s 36 hospitals is fully functional. A dozen are partially working and the others are destroyed. On Monday, the Israeli military again raided the al-Shifa hospital in Gaza City. Medical staff said the IDF killed and arrested Palestinians inside the hospital.

The crisis in the hospitals has been compounded by the killing or arrest of hundreds of healthcare workers by the Israeli military. Last week the BBC reported that medical staff said they were stripped, beaten and tortured by Israeli troops during a raid on the Nasser hospital in the south of the Gaza Strip, where half the population is now displaced.

Maynard said he believed the closure and damage to the hospitals was part of a strategy to force Palestinians out of their homes.

“It persuades the local population to leave. If a hospital has been dismantled, if the locals see there is no medical care available and see the disrupted infrastructure, it’s yet another factor that drives them south,” he said.

in other war crimes from the world's most moral army,

* accusations of mass executions by the IDF at Al-Shifa
* an airstrike against Gazan civilians gratuitous enough to flip Alex Jones against Israel
* IDF soldiers bragging about their use of torture

[MyLifeIsYours]

https://twitter.com/NotBreathingNow/status/1771821403894960296
Look at these scumbags acting like innocent nine year olds riding on bicycles while just finishing killing innocent civilians. Literally makes my blood cold. So much for the morality complex of the IDF.

[GeneralMacArthur]

Look at these scumbags acting like innocent nine year olds riding on bicycles while just finishing killing innocent civilians. Literally makes my blood cold. So much for the morality complex of the IDF.

As per usual I'm assuming there's absolutely zero evidence that they "just finished killing innocent civilians" or even that the home has been occupied at any point in the last three months?

[Devils30]

US and UK doctors in Washington to warn of IDF’s ‘appalling atrocities’ in Gaza:

A delegation of American and British doctors is in Washington DC to tell the Biden administration the Israeli military is systematically destroying Gaza’s health infrastructure in order to drive Palestinians out of their homes.

The doctors, who have recently returned from volunteering at Gaza’s besieged hospitals, are expected to meet White House officials and senior members of Congress this week to warn that pledges of increased aid to Palestinians under bombardment are largely meaningless without an immediate ceasefire to allow safe distribution of food and the revival of healthcare services.

Professor Nick Maynard, the former director for cancer services at Oxford University who worked at the al-Aqsa hospital in central Gaza at the beginning of the year, accused the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) of “appalling atrocities”.

“The IDF are systematically targeting healthcare facilities, healthcare personnel and really dismantling the whole healthcare system,” he said.

“It’s not just about targeting the buildings, it’s about systematically destroying the infrastructure of the hospitals. Destroying the oxygen tanks at the al-Shifa hospital, deliberately destroying the CT scanners and making it much more difficult to rebuild that infrastructure. If it was just targeting Hamas militants, why are they deliberately destroying the infrastructure of these institutions?”

The UN says none of Gaza’s 36 hospitals is fully functional. A dozen are partially working and the others are destroyed. On Monday, the Israeli military again raided the al-Shifa hospital in Gaza City. Medical staff said the IDF killed and arrested Palestinians inside the hospital.

The crisis in the hospitals has been compounded by the killing or arrest of hundreds of healthcare workers by the Israeli military. Last week the BBC reported that medical staff said they were stripped, beaten and tortured by Israeli troops during a raid on the Nasser hospital in the south of the Gaza Strip, where half the population is now displaced.

Maynard said he believed the closure and damage to the hospitals was part of a strategy to force Palestinians out of their homes.

“It persuades the local population to leave. If a hospital has been dismantled, if the locals see there is no medical care available and see the disrupted infrastructure, it’s yet another factor that drives them south,” he said.

in other war crimes from the world's most moral army,

* accusations of mass executions by the IDF at Al-Shifa
* an airstrike against Gazan civilians gratuitous enough to flip Alex Jones against Israel
* IDF soldiers bragging about their use of torture

You really are operating at a high level when you cite Alex Jones as a source.

[MyLifeIsYours]

Look at these scumbags acting like innocent nine year olds riding on bicycles while just finishing killing innocent civilians. Literally makes my blood cold. So much for the morality complex of the IDF.

As per usual I'm assuming there's absolutely zero evidence that they "just finished killing innocent civilians" or even that the home has been occupied at any point in the last three months?

Look at the ruins of the homes in the clip. It looks like a normal day for an IDF soldier who had just killed or is planning to kill people. Doing acts of celebration in a demolished area is not painting them in a bright light.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

Look at these scumbags acting like innocent nine year olds riding on bicycles while just finishing killing innocent civilians. Literally makes my blood cold. So much for the morality complex of the IDF.

As per usual I'm assuming there's absolutely zero evidence that they "just finished killing innocent civilians" or even that the home has been occupied at any point in the last three months?

Look at the ruins of the homes in the clip. It looks like a normal day for an IDF soldier who had just killed or is planning to kill people. Doing acts of celebration in a demolished area is not painting them in a bright light.

If you want people to engage with your outrage, you probably shouldn't post content including antisemitic Holocaust minimization and revisionism.

[MyLifeIsYours]

Look at these scumbags acting like innocent nine year olds riding on bicycles while just finishing killing innocent civilians. Literally makes my blood cold. So much for the morality complex of the IDF.

As per usual I'm assuming there's absolutely zero evidence that they "just finished killing innocent civilians" or even that the home has been occupied at any point in the last three months?

Look at the ruins of the homes in the clip. It looks like a normal day for an IDF soldier who had just killed or is planning to kill people. Doing acts of celebration in a demolished area is not painting them in a bright light.

If you want people to engage with your outrage, you probably shouldn't post content including antisemitic Holocaust minimization and revisionism.

I wouldn't say nazis in my terminology but the actions of the Nethanyahu government are fascist. What is happening in Gaza is a genocide that many I'm the United Nations agreed upon. It's not the Holocaust but just another long lines of atrocities committed by fascist governments.

[GoTfan]

The fact that people feel a need to double down on calling others mentally ill for having any criticism of Israel says a lot of things about them. All of them bad.

[GeneralMacArthur]

The fact that people feel a need to double down on calling others mentally ill for having any criticism of Israel says a lot of things about them. All of them bad.

The fact that you are pretending we're labeling this person as mentally ill for "having any criticism of Israel", rather than what we've very clearly said is bizarre and extreme behavior indicative of paranoia, says a lot about you.

Sadly, this kind of thing is very popular on atlas forum dot web where you'll say "Jeffrey Dahmer was bad because he ate people's brains" and some malicious moron will go "wow crazy that someone would say Dahmer was bad just because he didn't eat pancakes"

[Devils30]

The fact that people feel a need to double down on calling others mentally ill for having any criticism of Israel says a lot of things about them. All of them bad.

The fact that you are pretending we're labeling this person as mentally ill for "having any criticism of Israel", rather than what we've very clearly said is bizarre and extreme behavior indicative of paranoia, says a lot about you.

Sadly, this kind of thing is very popular on atlas forum dot web where you'll say "Jeffrey Dahmer was bad because he ate people's brains" and some malicious moron will go "wow crazy that someone would say Dahmer was bad just because he didn't eat pancakes"

Your post earlier nailed everything.

[GoTfan]

The fact that people feel a need to double down on calling others mentally ill for having any criticism of Israel says a lot of things about them. All of them bad.

The fact that you are pretending we're labeling this person as mentally ill for "having any criticism of Israel", rather than what we've very clearly said is bizarre and extreme behavior indicative of paranoia, says a lot about you.

Sadly, this kind of thing is very popular on atlas forum dot web where you'll say "Jeffrey Dahmer was bad because he ate people's brains" and some malicious moron will go "wow crazy that someone would say Dahmer was bad just because he didn't eat pancakes"

Your post earlier nailed everything.

You tried to equate mental illness with criticism of Israel. That makes both of you pretty awful human beings.

[Devils30]

The fact that people feel a need to double down on calling others mentally ill for having any criticism of Israel says a lot of things about them. All of them bad.

The fact that you are pretending we're labeling this person as mentally ill for "having any criticism of Israel", rather than what we've very clearly said is bizarre and extreme behavior indicative of paranoia, says a lot about you.

Sadly, this kind of thing is very popular on atlas forum dot web where you'll say "Jeffrey Dahmer was bad because he ate people's brains" and some malicious moron will go "wow crazy that someone would say Dahmer was bad just because he didn't eat pancakes"

Your post earlier nailed everything.

You tried to equate mental illness with criticism of Israel. That makes both of you pretty awful human beings.

No I didn’t, I send many of the protestors had characteristics of people with some real personal issues (I stated my points and don’t intend to rehash everything here). 

Just curious, what is you ideal solution to the Israeli Palestinian conflict?

[GoTfan]

The fact that people feel a need to double down on calling others mentally ill for having any criticism of Israel says a lot of things about them. All of them bad.

The fact that you are pretending we're labeling this person as mentally ill for "having any criticism of Israel", rather than what we've very clearly said is bizarre and extreme behavior indicative of paranoia, says a lot about you.

Sadly, this kind of thing is very popular on atlas forum dot web where you'll say "Jeffrey Dahmer was bad because he ate people's brains" and some malicious moron will go "wow crazy that someone would say Dahmer was bad just because he didn't eat pancakes"

Your post earlier nailed everything.

You tried to equate mental illness with criticism of Israel. That makes both of you pretty awful human beings.

No I didn’t, I send many of the protestors had characteristics of people with some real personal issues (I stated my points and don’t intend to rehash everything here). 

Just curious, what is you ideal solution to the Israeli Palestinian conflict?

Don't change the subject. You tried to equate the two and how you're backtracking with the Trumpian "I never said that".

You did say it. As someone who struggles with depression, anxiety and suicidal ideation, it's extremely offensive that you don't even have the guts to admit it.

[CumbrianLefty]

It is true that certain "very online" types are more prone to mental problems. Though whether one of those causes the other, is a classic "chicken and egg" type question.

Beyond that, though, generalisations are at least unwise and quite possibly offensive.

[Agafin]

The UN finally managed to pass a ceasefire résolution as the US abstained. Though it did make it much less radical than some supporters of Palestine would've liked.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

The UN finally managed to pass a ceasefire résolution as the US abstained. Though it did make it much less radical than some supporters of Palestine would've liked.

Doing this in the middle of cease-fire/hostage release negotiations was incredibly stupid, and likely by design by the sponsors. Israel has already pulled delegations from a meeting with Biden.

[ProudModerate2]

Look at these scumbags acting like innocent nine year olds riding on bicycles while just finishing killing innocent civilians. Literally makes my blood cold. So much for the morality complex of the IDF.

As per usual I'm assuming there's absolutely zero evidence that they "just finished killing innocent civilians" or even that the home has been occupied at any point in the last three months?

Regardless of when those structures were destroyed, a "modern" army and it's soldiers should not be painting religious symbols on destroyed buildings (yet alone, symbols that are opposed by the previous home/structure owners), or showing over-enjoyment of their destruction, and the use and taking of civilian items, like bicycles.

Just dumb they would take self-video of their actions, and then release it for the world to see. I don't know how to read Israeli military insignia, but it would be interesting to know if any of these fools are wearing officer or non-commissioned officer markings.

[Horus]

The UN finally managed to pass a ceasefire résolution as the US abstained. Though it did make it much less radical than some supporters of Palestine would've liked.

The Israelis are still throwing a tantrum.

https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1772300347190485494?t=2oFmxvMiNpnfHX-V...

[Horus]

The UN finally managed to pass a ceasefire résolution as the US abstained. Though it did make it much less radical than some supporters of Palestine would've liked.

Doing this in the middle of cease-fire/hostage release negotiations was incredibly stupid, and likely by design by the sponsors. Israel has already pulled delegations from a meeting with Biden.

This is the first time in a long while that the Israelis aren't just given a blank check to do whatever they please from us, and they're still throwing a tantrum despite getting their way 99% of the time. Don't you think they're acting like spoiled brats??

[Silent Hunter]

Regardless of when those structures were destroyed, a "modern" army and it's soldiers should not be painting religious symbols on destroyed buildings (yet alone, symbols that are opposed by the previous home/structure owners), or showing over-enjoyment of their destruction, and the use and taking of civilian items, like bicycles.

Just dumb they would take self-video of their actions, and then release it for the world to see. I don't know how to read Israeli military insignia, but it would be interesting to know if any of these fools are wearing officer or non-commissioned officer markings.

They shouldn't, but they do. Soldiers are not too far removed from those involved in criminal gangs, who do similar stuff on social media all the time.

[MyLifeIsYours]

UN expert finds reasonable claims to genocide acts in Gaza, according to Al Jazarra.

The UN special rapporteur on the occupied Palestinian territories, Francesca Albanese, writes in her report to the UN Security Council – which was released at the same time as the Gaza resolution vote – that “Israel’s genocide on the Palestinians in Gaza is an escalatory stage of a long-standing settler colonial process of erasure”.

“For over seven decades this process has suffocated the Palestinian people as a group – demographically, culturally, economically and politically – seeking to displace it and expropriate and control its land and resources. The ongoing Nakba must be stopped and remedied once and for all.”

The UN report finds that “there are reasonable grounds to believe” that the threshold for several genocidal acts against Palestinians is met: killing members of the group, causing serious bodily or mental harm and deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to bring about physical destruction.

“Israel has de facto treated an entire protected group and its life-sustaining infrastructure as ‘terrorist’ or ‘terrorist-supporting’, thus transforming everything and everyone into either a target or collateral damage, hence killable or destroyable,” says the report.

[lfromnj]

Oh no not UN experts !