North Carolina Overturns LGBT-Discrimination Bans (user search)
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  North Carolina Overturns LGBT-Discrimination Bans (search mode)
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Author Topic: North Carolina Overturns LGBT-Discrimination Bans  (Read 15554 times)
IceAgeComing
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« on: March 24, 2016, 03:19:59 PM »

A friend of mine just told me about this, its quite possibly the most ridiculous law I've ever seen passed in an incredibly undemocratic way.  Its just the sheer variety of bad stuff that they managed to fit into the bill that makes it totally mental - especially the minimum wage stuff, it screams of "what .  It shows how increased visibility for a minority group can initially be a curse since it leads to bigoted rubbish like this getting through, which would probably be less likely than before trans issues began to feature regularly in the news - the whole thing just seems like a huge backlash of the sort that gay people got in many places in the eighties.

Is there any chance of the worst elements of this being overridden in the courts?


It's just part of the big plan to end this transgender sideshow:

1. States and the federal government should not allow legal gender marker changes.

2. Transgender people should not have any legal protections against discrimination, nor should anyone be forced to respect their identity.

3. Transgender people should not be legally allowed to use facilities in accordance with their gender identity.

4. Medical coverage related to transition should not be provided by the government, or any other entity.

5. Transgender people should not be allowed to serve in the military.


jesus christ i don't want to know how you managed to internalise this hate towards a harmless group of people
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IceAgeComing
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Posts: 1,581
United Kingdom


« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2016, 03:52:49 PM »

I think it's pretty clear that it's extremely therapeutic for some people.

I'd change that to "most people"; I'm not a doctor but I'm pretty sure that the medical consensus is that gender reassignment surgery is by far the best way of dealing with gender dysphoria in most cases - perhaps someone that is better informed can confirm that or not.  Denying that and suggesting that there are other ways of "treating" gender dysphoria is IMO equivalent to the people that say that you can "cure" being gay, its a ridiculous position to hold regardless of your opinion of trans people.  It wouldn't be covered by the NHS here if it wasn't seen as medically the right thing to do; they don't cover lots of expensive things that ideally they would so I don't see why they would spend money on something that its unnecessary.
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IceAgeComing
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Posts: 1,581
United Kingdom


« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2016, 06:08:15 PM »

If you are physically a man, you are a man.  If I decided to say that I am a 140 year old cat, does that make me a 140 year old cat, even though I'm clearly not 140 or a cat??

generally when trying to make a point, you should avoid making a nice big strawman

Gender Dysphoria is a real thing, and gender reassignment is, for most people, the best way of dealing with it.  There has been research looking into what might cause it and although nothing is at all clear (nor probably will it ever be) some studies have found that there are some similarities between the brain anatomy of Women and MTF transpeople (and vice versa) and also some other stuff that I couldn't really understand because I gave up Biology two years into High School - although again nothing conclusive, its one of those "further research needed!" things that all research into anything starts out with.  Thinking that your a cat or a ghost or all the other rubbish that people try to link trans issues with is different because medical research has not found those to be legitimate medical issues: its chalk and cheese.

But I don't actually think that any of that really matters.  I don't see how letting trans people live as their real gender affects me as a cis guy at all, and I just think that pursuing policies like this is just mean and nasty.  I don't see how I lose out because Britain has a system that allows people who may not have the same anatomy as me pee in a Male toilet, or put "M" on their passport, or do whatever else they want to do with their life.  That's what my parents taught me to think when I was growing up, and I think that its a very good way of looking at these sort of things, its a bit Libertarian-y but on this it makes sense.

I just think it should be a long, drawn out process with every opportunity to change your mind.

I dunno what the guidance is in the US but in the UK it already is, even not factoring in the shockingly long NHS waiting lists that force many people to go private.  It could have changed since I last looked into it (did some voluntary work which involved looking up this sort of stuff a few years ago, it could have changed) you have to live as the gender that you identify as for a year before you become eligible for reassignment surgery, although during that time hormones are available and that's as big a part of the process as anything from what I've been told.  That time is there purely to make sure that the person wanting to transition isn't making a mistake and is probably reasonable, although there could be arguments against it.  This is the theory, according to a Guardian report from last year there are huge delays of over a year before some people get forwarded to a gender clinic, followed by more delays before getting surgery, which will especially hurt lower income trans people that can't afford private healthcare.  Not all trans people get surgery though, its actually quite rare for trans men, apparently because the medical procedures for that are less developed and more risky, and surgery is not required to get a Gender Recognition Certificate (the legal document that officially recognises a change in legal gender although you can change gender marks on some documents well before that - I'm pretty sure the only thing that the GRC changes is your birth certificate).  This could have changed since I had to look into it, although I don't think there has been any big legal changes at least.  I know that the government is apparently considering moving to a self-definition policy like Ireland has (which I support), but I'm not entirely convinced that its something that the Tories will pursue even though there should be a majority in parliament for it because a lot of Tory MPs would vote against it.

It could be different in America, I tried to look up the laws there just now and frankly it seems like a right muddle because its a state issue, and lots of states don't seem to have updated their laws at all on the thing.

I dunno whether this is straying off topic again: if it is I'm sorry!
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IceAgeComing
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Posts: 1,581
United Kingdom


« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2016, 06:17:57 PM »

Always give someone a chance before judging them, that's my thinking.

although hold hell that post was much longer than it was meant to be, hopefully its not incredibly boring.  its something that i feel quite strongly about, as you can probably tell by the number of times that i've posted in this thread...
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IceAgeComing
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Posts: 1,581
United Kingdom


« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2016, 08:14:19 PM »

People should basically use their common sense here. A man who considers himself female but still has all the physical attributes of a man should use the male bathroom. A woman who considers herself to be male, and has gone through the necessary surgery to be a man should also use the male bathroom. Essentially, people should determine which bathroom they use upon the basis of their present body, not the one they wish they had. Obviously, the birth certificate stipulation here doesn't allow for that, so that should definitely be examined upon practical grounds.

This is shockingly progressive from you, Cassius, but my question is where do you draw the line. Most trans men haven't had the genital surgery; would you make them use the women's restroom.

Well, you know, I'm hardly an expert on the whole trans thing, to put it crudely, and I'm not really acquainted of the whole spectrum, if you will, of what being 'trans' (a broad label, as I'm sure you'll agree) entails, and I have very little idea of how gender reassignment works. Going back to the common sense comment I opened with, I'd tend to go with the view that 'if you look like a man, you should be using the male bathroom'. Obviously, masculinity and male looks are in of themselves subjective, but I can't really think of a better solution to this. I mean, public bathrooms are public places, and I wouldn't feel comfortable with a trans person who, to my eyes (given that they would be a stranger to me) was a woman, using the male toilets, and the reasons for discomfort would probably be even greater in the reverse situation. I think a system where any person can use any toilet regardless of gender would be open to all manner of problems (for instance, male pranksters, or worse, claiming to be trans so they could enter female bathrooms), so I think the best bet is simply for people to use the bathroom that they would look less out of place in.

The whole "letting pranksters/perverts into ladies bathrooms!!!" thing is making a mountain out of a mole hill; .  Think about it: if someone is going to go and commit Sexual Harassment why would they decide to stick - and also why would they follow these ridiculous laws - they're already intending to commit a much worse crime, they aren't going to stop because they could get a relatively small fine!

In the UK, since the passing of the Equality Act in 2010, it has been illegal to discriminate against a trans person using the public toilet of the gender that they identify and present as (with a few exceptions thanks to the Equality Act having lots of lovely holes in it): there have been a few cases (not that many, my quick research found two reported prosecutions) that have gone through the legal system and have resulted in businesses being fined.  Shockingly, I could not find a case of someone who claimed to be transgender and ended up committing sexual harassment in the "wrong" bathroom - although I did find a fair few cases of trans people being sexually harassed.  Its a phenomenon that literally does not exist: its a scare story that has been created by people that don't want to argue on the actual merits of nondiscrimination policies.

All these policies will do is force people like those who've had their pictures posted in this thread into the wrong toilets; places where transwomen are much more likely to face harassment of all kinds and where transmen might be perceived as the peeping toms that these bills are apparently meant to stop.
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