France General Discussion II: Living under Marxism

[Antonio the Sixth]

Mali?

http://www.liberation.fr/politiques/2013/01/28/les-sondages-un-peu-moins-mauvais-pour-hollande-et-ayrault_877399

Most likely, yeah.

[Hash]

The gay marriage debate has started. Taubira made a surprisingly powerful and stirring defense of gay marriage and destroyed the right's strawman arguments; the right wants a referendum (which would be arguably unconstitutional); the right continues to prove that they're raging homophobes from the 1860s (speaking about 'nature' and that awful stuff). Jacques Bompard (fascist creep from the Vaucluse) is trolling, and has proposed amendments to legalize polygamy, incest, marriages between minors and family members but also getting rid of marriage altogether.

Here's a diagram of how the deputies should vote: http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/visuel/2013/01/30/mariage-pour-tous-comment-devraient-voter-les-deputes_1824115_3224.html

[Antonio the Sixth]

The gay marriage debate has started. Taubira made a surprisingly powerful and stirring defense of gay marriage and destroyed the right's strawman arguments; the right wants a referendum (which would be arguably unconstitutional); the right continues to prove that they're raging homophobes from the 1860s (speaking about 'nature' and that awful stuff). Jacques Bompard (fascist creep from the Vaucluse) is trolling, and has proposed amendments to legalize polygamy, incest, marriages between minors and family members but also getting rid of marriage altogether.

Here's a diagram of how the deputies should vote: http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/visuel/2013/01/30/mariage-pour-tous-comment-devraient-voter-les-deputes_1824115_3224.html

LOL @ Lassalle being the only "undecided". Modem staying true to its Moderate Hero creed, I guess.

Anyway, Borloo, Lagarde and Jégo are good surprises. But since these are basically the "leaders" of the UDI group, it's surprising that they don't bring any backbenchers with them...

[MaxQue]

The gay marriage debate has started. Taubira made a surprisingly powerful and stirring defense of gay marriage and destroyed the right's strawman arguments; the right wants a referendum (which would be arguably unconstitutional); the right continues to prove that they're raging homophobes from the 1860s (speaking about 'nature' and that awful stuff). Jacques Bompard (fascist creep from the Vaucluse) is trolling, and has proposed amendments to legalize polygamy, incest, marriages between minors and family members but also getting rid of marriage altogether.

Here's a diagram of how the deputies should vote: http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/visuel/2013/01/30/mariage-pour-tous-comment-devraient-voter-les-deputes_1824115_3224.html

LOL @ Lassalle being the only "undecided". Modem staying true to its Moderate Hero creed, I guess.

Anyway, Borloo, Lagarde and Jégo are good surprises. But since these are basically the "leaders" of the UDI group, it's surprising that they don't bring any backbenchers with them...

Lagarde isn't a surprise, he voted for the 2011 socialist proposal.
Anyways, Lagarde is strange and isn't an usual right-winger. The fact he was easily reelected in such a left-wing constituency and the 70% in the first round he got in Drancy in 2008 (it was part of the red belt) shows it.

[Hash]

A summary of the right's 5,630 amendments to the text:
http://www.huffingtonpost.fr/2013/01/28/mariage-gay-les-pires-amendements-deposes-opposition_n_2567744.html#quiz_6059

Besides the trollin'-n'-strawmannin' fascist who proposes to legalize pedophilia, incest and polygamy; highlights include: xenophobia (the current bill would allow bi-national couples to marry even if one of their native countries does not recognize SSM), weird religious sh**t from Thierry Benoit, some weird sh**t about how children should always live with their biological parents (a thinly-veiled attack on adoption and adoptive parents in general) and banning adoptions in general by singles.

The right sinks lower and lower every day.

[Antonio the Sixth]

A summary of the right's 5,630 amendments to the text:
http://www.huffingtonpost.fr/2013/01/28/mariage-gay-les-pires-amendements-deposes-opposition_n_2567744.html#quiz_6059

Besides the trollin'-n'-strawmannin' fascist who proposes to legalize pedophilia, incest and polygamy; highlights include: xenophobia (the current bill would allow bi-national couples to marry even if one of their native countries does not recognize SSM), weird religious sh**t from Thierry Benoit, some weird sh**t about how children should always live with their biological parents (a thinly-veiled attack on adoption and adoptive parents in general) and banning adoptions in general by singles.

The right sinks lower and lower every day.

See, this is why you can safely stick with the left no matter how incompetent they might be.

[Andrea]

The vote on the article opening to gay marriage

For:
235 PS
3 UMP ( François de Mazières, Michel Piron et Franck Riester)
8 Greens
1  radical, républicain, démocrate et progressiste
2 from Gauche démocrate et républicaine

UMP's Claudine Schmid and Michel Sordi abstained.

Against: 94 UMP, 2 UDI, PCF's Patrice Carvalho

However, Mazieres and Piron made known they got it wrong and wanted to vote against.

I thought Greens would have showed more enthusiasm.

[Zanas]

It's obvious not all depuites were there, so it's just they lacked a few of their own. I'm a bit appalled by the PCF one voting against, though unfortunately not completely surprised...

And it's also a bit scary, but also not very surprising, to see most overseas left-wing deputies voting against.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Looks like UMP deputies didn't even bother turning out. LOL.

[DC Al Fine]

It's obvious not all depuites were there, so it's just they lacked a few of their own. I'm a bit appalled by the PCF one voting against, though unfortunately not completely surprised...

And it's also a bit scary, but also not very surprising, to see most overseas left-wing deputies voting against.

Out of curiosity, why is it not surprising that a commie would vote against SSM?

[Zanas]

Well, even if they have been recycling their front-benchers a bit with new more modern specimens, there are still a good bulk of the PCF that is composed of 60+ people with sometimes not so progressive views on societal issues... One of their deputies, André Gerin, even ended up being quite the racist, before getting expelled from the parliament group and not reelected in 2012.

[Peter the Lefty]

It's obvious not all depuites were there, so it's just they lacked a few of their own. I'm a bit appalled by the PCF one voting against, though unfortunately not completely surprised...

And it's also a bit scary, but also not very surprising, to see most overseas left-wing deputies voting against.

Out of curiosity, why is it not surprising that a commie would vote against SSM?

Well, it certainly is rather surprising, but I guess a possible explanation would be that their working-class supporters aren't nuts about it.  Plus, it's not like communist regimes are known for their gay-friendliness.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Well, even if they have been recycling their front-benchers a bit with new more modern specimens, there are still a good bulk of the PCF that is composed of 60+ people with sometimes not so progressive views on societal issues... One of their deputies, André Gerin, even ended up being quite the racist, before getting expelled from the parliament group and not reelected in 2012.

Was Gérin racist? I remember him not being a fan of burqas and all, but I wouldn't say that makes him racist.

[Zanas]

Weeeell, he was borderline.

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[Antonio the Sixth]

Weeeell, he was borderline.

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Pretty awful, yeah... but not quite racist.

[Zanas]

You realize there is indeed racism behind this but he still managed to varnish it with a populist-like rhetoric. A number of old communists in the PCF are indeed racists. They were for French Algeria, they were for sending troops to beat up New Caledonia, and so on. I'm just glad they succeed in getting younger more modern ones up front now : Laurent, Dartigolles, Brossat, etc. who are a lot more societally frequentable.

[Hash]

Communist parties in North America are so small and tiny and many of them have adopted New Left-type causes such as gay marriage/feminism/radical environmentalism and so forth, leading to the view (in the US and Canada) that communism is a very, very socially liberal ideology which always strongly embraces stuff like gay marriage. In countries like France where the communist party hasn't always met in a phone booth, there is still a significant share of old-timers/orthodox communists who are very much Old Left/Soviet Union in their ideology and ways which makes them rather socially conservative (and the traditional PCF electorate is far from being socially liberal). I know that Alain Bocquet, an other fairly orthodox dude, also had some second thoughts about gay marriage.

correction: André Gerin was not defeated, he retired in 2012 and the FG did not hold the seat (and wasn't really expected to anyway).

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Certain PCF-controlled municipalities were notorious for their harassment of minorities in the 1980s.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Georges Marchais also race-baited in the 1981 election. Incompetently, but then 'Georges Marchais'. You also need to consider attitudes towards linguistic minorities/minority languages. All of these things link up.

[Frodo]

Speaking of Marxism:

French Communists Abandon Hammer and Sickle

By HARVEY MORRIS

LONDON — The Communist Party of France has sparked a revolution among the comrades by removing the hammer and sickle from their membership cards.

The iconic symbol of the international proletariat has been replaced with the star of the multi-party European Left alliance, much to the horror of traditionalists at the party’s 36th congress that opened near Paris on Thursday.

What was billed by the party leadership as a forward-looking move was denounced by others as revisionist backsliding and part of a conspiracy to abandon the movement to the embrace of social democracy.

Emmanuel Dang Tran, secretary of the party’s Paris section, told France Info radio that members were shocked at the abandoning of “what represents, for the working class of this country, a historic element in resistance against the politics of capitalism.”

[Zanas]

Yeah, French media are all out on this. Actually, it's been numerous years since most of the Party's federations were not using the hammer and sickle on any of their activist material.  And Emmanuel Dang Tran is only secretary of one of Paris' 20 sections, one of the most reactionary ones.

But I find it a pity. The hammer and sickle is an international recognition symbol, plus a historical landmark. Oh well, no big deal.

[ingemann]

Yeah, French media are all out on this. Actually, it's been numerous years since most of the Party's federations were not using the hammer and sickle on any of their activist material.  And Emmanuel Dang Tran is only secretary of one of Paris' 20 sections, one of the most reactionary ones.

But I find it a pity. The hammer and sickle is an international recognition symbol, plus a historical landmark. Oh well, no big deal.

The Swastika was ancient symbol widely used before WW2, but that doesn't really matter anymore.

[LastVoter]

Yeah, French media are all out on this. Actually, it's been numerous years since most of the Party's federations were not using the hammer and sickle on any of their activist material.  And Emmanuel Dang Tran is only secretary of one of Paris' 20 sections, one of the most reactionary ones.

But I find it a pity. The hammer and sickle is an international recognition symbol, plus a historical landmark. Oh well, no big deal.

How many workers today use hammers or sickles, especially in a country like France?

[DC Al Fine]

Yeah, French media are all out on this. Actually, it's been numerous years since most of the Party's federations were not using the hammer and sickle on any of their activist material.  And Emmanuel Dang Tran is only secretary of one of Paris' 20 sections, one of the most reactionary ones.

But I find it a pity. The hammer and sickle is an international recognition symbol, plus a historical landmark. Oh well, no big deal.

How many workers today use hammers or sickles, especially in a country like France?

Face it Seatown, the laptop and photocopier just don't have the same pizazz as the hammer and sickle.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I doubt that many PCF members have ever encountered a laptop or would know how to use one...