Mock Parliament Diplomacy

[Leinad]

So Leinad's argument is that because the collapsing scenery of Atlasia provides a good example of what not to do we shouldn't establish foreign relations because your feelings are hurt?

Not at all. You really think the Prime Minister answering 3 different questions that had nothing to do with Atlasia by talking about how Atlasia is a socialist wasteland is warranted, and not clear evidence of bias? And do you think that it's warranted for Al to go crazy about "Atlasian legalism" the first time someone asks a rules question in Parliament?

My argument was clear and exhaustively detailed--far more than "my feelings are hurt." I'm confused as how you even got to that point, my feelings are rarely hurt by rhetoric on internet forum games; if it was that easy to hurt my feelings, I'd be an emotional wreck 24/7.

Back to the point: the reality according to most in the mock parli[a]ment is that Atlasia is some kind of desolate wasteland--a tremendously failed state if it hasn't fully collapsed. That's okay if they want to think that, but those of us sticking around don't agree with that reality. Bias or sentiment aside, these are irreconcilable differences if we want to try to co-exist in the same universe. For relations to work, we need to at least synchronize our perceptions of reality.

[Oakvale]

Back to the point: the reality according to most in the mock parli[a]ment is that Atlasia is some kind of desolate wasteland--a tremendously failed state if it hasn't fully collapsed. That's okay if they want to think that, but those of us sticking around don't agree with that reality.

Atlasia is literally a failed state at the moment. That might change, but that's a fairly undeniable reality right now.

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Why? I'm not particularly keen on having LOL NUKES if I can avoid it.

[Blair]

I'm sorry but is Leinad basically saying that no-one can criticize Atlasia? Surely people like me, Talleyrand and Oakvale have a right when we've been in the game for a very long time even if we disengaged . IMAO I have every right to point out what is wrong when I served as a Senator for 4 months

The fact that you blame Talley for starting the 'collapse' is wrong-creating a thread didn't cause this crisis.

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Kettle----Pot

[Donerail]

I'm not sure why "criticisms of Atlasia" prohibit the two nations from co-existing in the same universe. Surely nations far more explicitly opposed to Atlasia's policies (North Korea, etc - ones that surely use much more violent rhetoric than 'tremendously failed state' to describe Atlasia) are considered to exist in this universe?

[Leinad]

My point seems to have been missed. I guess that's partially my fault for creating a rambling 172-paragraph novel to state them. Oh well. I'll try to clear things up:

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Why? I'm not particularly keen on having LOL NUKES if I can avoid it.

Not sure what that has to do with it. The fact is that if South America thinks Atlasia is dead, but Atlasia thinks it isn't, how can they operate with each other? It's similar to how someone can't believe in Christianity and Atheism at the same time--they're explicitly incompatible realities. I'm not sure how much diplomacy we can do if we disagree on simple facts of reality.

I'm sorry but is Leinad basically saying that no-one can criticize Atlasia? Surely people like me, Talleyrand and Oakvale have a right when we've been in the game for a very long time even if we disengaged . IMAO I have every right to point out what is wrong when I served as a Senator for 4 months

No! I'm not saying you can't criticize! I'd never say that. My point is that when you go out of your way to criticize Atlasia consistently, it's a problem. I've never said Atlasia is perfect or that you don't have a right to criticize it, simply that the anti-Atlasian sentiment is clearly excessive.

The fact that you blame Talley for starting the 'collapse' is wrong-creating a thread didn't cause this crisis.

Yeah, I regret that statement, although I'd like to clarify that I never said he was the cause, just what partially triggered it. Either way, it's solidly beside the point, and I wish I had refrained from saying that.

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Kettle----Pot

I don't hate the Mock Parliament. I've spent a good bit of time there, and even made a newspaper--which I haven't quit despite a lull in publishing. I have no hatred at all for the Mock Parliament, just an annoyance at the hatred for Atlasia that is all too common there.

I'm not sure why "criticisms of Atlasia" prohibit the two nations from co-existing in the same universe. Surely nations far more explicitly opposed to Atlasia's policies (North Korea, etc - ones that surely use much more violent rhetoric than 'tremendously failed state' to describe Atlasia) are considered to exist in this universe?

Never said that. My overly-extensive post was merely to prove that the criticisms are irrational in that they go to far. The Prime Minister responding to 3 different questions that weren't even vaguely related to Atlasia with anti-Atlasian rhetoric is irrational.

Why it would be hard to co-exist is that they think we're a dystopia, but we think we're not. It's a fact that two countries can't really work together on diplomacy when they don't recognize the same reality.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

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Why? I'm not particularly keen on having LOL NUKES if I can avoid it.

So you want to play diplomatic relations yet at the same time you want to operate like Atlasia and South America are in diffrent universe? Because that how things are going to be without any synchronization. It doesn't make a slightest sense.

[Oakvale]

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Why? I'm not particularly keen on having LOL NUKES if I can avoid it.

So you want to play diplomatic relations yet at the same time you want to operate like Atlasia and South America are in diffrent universe? Because that how things are going to be without any synchronization. It doesn't make a slightest sense.

The GM position in Atlasia is an utter irrelevance and it's long past time we stop pretending it mattered. We've had peace in the Middle East since 2013 or something.

[windjammer]

Well,
Why ,not?

[Clark Kent]

I don't know much about this anti-Atlasian sentiment in South America, but I wholeheartedly support diplomatic relations between Atlasia and South America.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

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Why? I'm not particularly keen on having LOL NUKES if I can avoid it.

So you want to play diplomatic relations yet at the same time you want to operate like Atlasia and South America are in diffrent universe? Because that how things are going to be without any synchronization. It doesn't make a slightest sense.

The GM position in Atlasia is an utter irrelevance and it's long past time we stop pretending it mattered.

So what are you proposing? Total lack of synchronisation and the entire "diplomacy" between Atlasia and South America reduced to exchanging some meaningless empty notes and making some treaties of no consequence whatsoever? This is hardly an improvement from, as you called it a few posts above, a "SoEA writing fanfic about his heroic efforts on behalf of Middle East peace."

Game Moderation, as it was being done in Atlasia up to this point, is not the only model possible. I invite you to look at some of Lumine's diplomacy games for a really good model.

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As a matter of fact, not really. Maybe you should've actually familiarize yourself with the developments before criticizing it just to criticize?

[Simfan34]

I do not see the tenor of discussion here as being conducive to fruitful relations.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

I'm sorry but is Leinad basically saying that no-one can criticize Atlasia? Surely people like me, Talleyrand and Oakvale have a right when we've been in the game for a very long time even if we disengaged . IMAO I have every right to point out what is wrong when I served as a Senator for 4 months

It's not that Atlasia should never be criticized, it's that certain South American leaders tend to take a... combative attitude towards this Republic. Atlasia seems to have become the universal boogeyman in certain circles, used to strike down opposing views much as cries of "big government" are wielded in the RL USA. For example:

Problems lie ahead, of course. In our own land, rebels and drug cartels continue to wreak havoc. Myriad economic challenges face our constituent nations. To our north, the pigheaded isolationists squawk and squeal at the thought of granting our nation diplomatic recognition. But this government stands ready to meet these challenges. With that in mind, the Prime Minister will now move to holding a vote on a motion of confidence on a sweeping policy agenda that will continue our work in moving South America forward.

There may be some residual bitterness towards some members of the Mock Parliament game, but I'm yet to hear anyone in Atlasia refer to you as "pigheaded isolationists". I was one of the first people to suggest (publicly at least) that Atlasia and South America establish diplomatic relations, but I find this trend very disturbing.

[Oakvale]

A couple of prominent Atlasians screeched and screamed about the idea of Mock Parliament being moved to the "Fantasy Elections" section, let alone the idea of opening foreign relations and thus solving forever the vacuum problem. What is that if not pigheaded isolationism from those few individuals? I'd hope they're a minority.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

I don't reject the idea of diplomacy between Atlasia and Mock Parliament. To the contrary, if done right it can be very interesting. Very few are interested in isolationism and retaining a failed status quo. But certain conditions must be fulfilled in order to make the idea both workable and actually worthy of anyone's time and efforts. Without synchronization of universes and, most preferably, some engine, the entire diplomacy will be limited to exchanging a couple of meaningless notes and maybe making some treaties of no consequence whatsoever. And that's hardly any real improvement from (and I like this phrase very much, Oakvale) a "SoEA writing fanfic about his heroic efforts on behalf of Middle East peace." With this attitude, setting another playable state within the Atlasian universe makes much more sense.

Second, the timing is not very good, since Atlasia first need to rebuild and that should be our only focus now.

As of moving the Mock Parliament sections, I can speak only for myself: that doesn't bother me at all. Why the hell not?

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

A couple of prominent Atlasians screeched and screamed about the idea of Mock Parliament being moved to the "Fantasy Elections" section, let alone the idea of opening foreign relations and thus solving forever the vacuum problem. What is that if not pigheaded isolationism from those few individuals? I'd hope they're a minority.

I would argue that, if you're trying to convince people that you're not anti-Atlasia, calling Atlasians "pigheaded isolationists" isn't the best strategy.

Otherwise, I basically agree with what Kalwejt said: I'm not opposed to diplomacy with South America, but I do think we need to have some sort of unified game engine for it to work.

[Oakvale]

A couple of prominent Atlasians screeched and screamed about the idea of Mock Parliament being moved to the "Fantasy Elections" section, let alone the idea of opening foreign relations and thus solving forever the vacuum problem. What is that if not pigheaded isolationism from those few individuals? I'd hope they're a minority.

I would argue that, if you're trying to convince people that you're not anti-Atlasia, calling Atlasians "pigheaded isolationists" isn't the best strategy.

Otherwise, I basically agree with what Kalwejt said: I'm not opposed to diplomacy with South America, but I do think we need to have some sort of unified game engine for it to work.

I didn't - and wouldn't - call all Atlasians that, only the, uh, pigheaded isolationists.

[Adam Griffin]

Look, I'm completely open to the idea, but...here's what I'm seeing:

• A group of people abandon the game in a showing of classic hivemind mentality
• Remaining citizens jockey to find solutions for repair
• Deserters show up, demanding their presence elsewhere be recognized (after pondering isolationism themselves and then actually implementing some form of it)
• "Um, I don't know..."
• "ISOLATIONISTS! You need us in order to survive!"

This type of engagement isn't fruitful. If you've left the game, then you need to chill out and let us do what we're going to do. You had an opportunity to influence the dialogue in a pragmatic way and you threw it in the trash. Hivemind antagonizing after the fact isn't going to buy you any credulence with people who oppose, are on the fence about or even support the idea.

Furthermore, the rationale(s) here doesn't make much sense:

Acknowledge a game that drained a significant base of active players from here in order for us to remain viable? How does that work? It's not as if there'll be many more interactive possibilities other than what would be provided through GM simulations, and we all know how that goes.

Isolationists because we haven't immediately implemented plans to recognize something that by definition doesn't exist within the confines of the game? That simply doesn't make any sense.

Concern about a game that you proactively did damage to by leaving it, and suddenly express so much concern over? Color me skeptical.

Isolationists because we haven't acknowledged another game existence formally, when a far more isolationist idea was bounced around largely by the ones who left this game (that you have to "pick a side" with respect to holding any office)? Furthermore, only one side has actually implemented any sort of regulation regarding dual officeholding whatsoever. I'm not sure how we are the isolationists.


We've got bigger problems to handle here at the moment than being pestered over recognizing some other game that was formed to be a competitor against us. That's not to say that we won't at some point in the future, but let us do what we've got to do and then let us do what we're going to do first. This is not Priority One for a single person in this game right now who isn't playing both sides.

[Leinad]

Otherwise, I basically agree with what Kalwejt said: I'm not opposed to diplomacy with South America, but I do think we need to have some sort of unified game engine for it to work.

I agree with that as well. I'm not against diplomacy with them in theory. My whole argument wasn't that it's a bad place, but to prove to SJoyce and everyone else that it is irrational to hate Atlasia as much as many over there do. Although I think what would make relations the hardest is the fact that we can't co-exist if our realities are not synchronized. I also don't think that's a silver bullet to fix all of our problems--two-way diplomacy wouldn't increase activity as much as Oakvale, etc. seem to think.

Again, though, I'm not against diplomacy in theory.

But apparently I'm the one against criticism, the one with an irrational bias, and a "pigheaded isolationist"...

I'm certainly okay if you disagree with me, or hate things I like (e.g. Atlasia), but I'd rather people refrain from attributing positions to me that I don't have (e.g. that you can't criticize Atlasia (you can), or that I hate the Mock Parliament (I don't)). Thanks.