King David Hotel Bombing - Terrorist Attack or Not?

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Of course it was. And that was fine.

Call me crazy, but I don't think terrorism is ever acceptable...

South Africa?

Depends on your definition of terrorism. I don't think Mandela condoned anything more than knocking down power lines and small acts of sabotage.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

It was a British mandate, meaning that the British had every right, and a moral responsibility to police it. No doubt if we just cleared out after 1945 you'd attack us for not intervening, and helping.

No, the British had absolutely no right to be there in the first place. Not in 1929, not in 1936, not in 1945 and certainly not in 1948.

If there had been no British mandate in Palestine, there never would have been Jewish emigration to Palestine on anything like the scale there was in the interwar years.  The options for the area following the Great War were either a British mandate or an Arab government which would have been even less welcoming to Jewish immigration than the British were.  An independent Jewish homeland c. 1920 was not achievable at all.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

If there had been no British mandate in Palestine, there never would have been Jewish emigration to Palestine on anything like the scale there was in the interwar years.  The options for the area following the Great War were either a British mandate or an Arab government which would have been even less welcoming to Jewish immigration than the British were.  An independent Jewish homeland c. 1920 was not achievable at all.

This is true, but it hardly legitimizes British colonization of the area, and much less their conduct in the area. Besides, it is not as if it was evident that there would be a Jewish state, since the British commitment to this idea seemed very shaky. Jewish fighters had to liberate the country.

Liberate a country from the people who were living there?  That's sort of like saying America was liberated from the Indians or that Britain was liberated from the Celts.

[Lurker]

Well, duh.

As for DavidB's support for Irgun's crimes - whether this is evidence of hypocrisy or partisanship seems pretty immaterial, and I fail to see why the latter somehow makes it better.

Of course, judging from the fanatical stance apparent in his last post, it is not suprising that he'd support literally anything that serves The Cause. David, do you think the Deir Yassin massacre was entirely unproblematic as well (just to name one of Irgun's other great victories)?

[Horus]

Liberate a country from the people who were living there?

No.

And since I have basic self-respect as a Jew, I'm not willing to engage in discussions with you on my people's indigenous rights to the Land of Israel, and this you know very well already. Besides, this thread is not even about (modern) Zionism in a more general sense, and neither was your initial remark to which I replied.

Are you mizrahi? If not, your people never lived in the area we now call Israel.

[/]

Liberate a country from the people who were living there?

No.

And since I have basic self-respect as a Jew, I'm not willing to engage in discussions with you on my people's indigenous rights to the Land of Israel, and this you know very well already. Besides, this thread is not even about (modern) Zionism in a more general sense, and neither was your initial remark to which I replied.

Are you mizrahi? If not, your people never lived in the area we now call Israel.

lol

[Horus]

Liberate a country from the people who were living there?

No.

And since I have basic self-respect as a Jew, I'm not willing to engage in discussions with you on my people's indigenous rights to the Land of Israel, and this you know very well already. Besides, this thread is not even about (modern) Zionism in a more general sense, and neither was your initial remark to which I replied.

Are you mizrahi? If not, your people never lived in the area we now call Israel.

lol

I'm not sure how that's funny. Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews originated in (probably) Kurdistan, turkey, Iran, that area. I'm half Ashkenazi, my ancestry test showed origins in Iran, Sardinia and Russia on that side.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Liberate a country from the people who were living there?

No.

And since I have basic self-respect as a Jew, I'm not willing to engage in discussions with you on my people's indigenous rights to the Land of Israel, and this you know very well already. Besides, this thread is not even about (modern) Zionism in a more general sense, and neither was your initial remark to which I replied.

I'll agree our opinions of Zionism are widely divergent, which is why in my initial reply I limited myself to pointing out that the available alternatives circa 1920 to a British mandate would have been even less desirable from your point of view.  However, I'm not going to let go unchallenged the misuse of the word "liberation" to describe what Zionism, especially modern Zionism, entails.  There are a number of other terms that are accurate, not all of which are negative, but liberation is not one of them.  If Zionism had been limited to securing independence for existing pre-1918 Jewish communities, then it would have a right to be described as a liberation ideology.  But Zionism historically and currently is far more expansive than that.

[Lurker]

In reply to Lurker, my opinion regarding Deir Yassin is that this event might be regrettable in itself, but that some of its consequences were positive and that it is sometimes inevitable to crack some eggs in order to make an omelette

Yes, that was the answer I expected.

This may sound like a rhetorical question, but would you support any conceivable action if it served the Zionist cause (however defined)?

[SATW]

Horus is going back on ignore for the most ridiculous statement I have ever read in my life. I say this as a Mizrahi/Sephardic Jew.

[Murica!]

I love how this thread went from denying a terrorist act to denying that Jews lived in the region of what is now Israel.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

"Liberation of Jews" is not the same as "Liberation of Eretz Yisrael" unless one holds to the Zionist mythology of Palestine being a largely abandoned place in the 19th century waiting to be filled by the jewish diaspora.  Underdeveloped to be sure, but hardly unpeopled.  One of the difficulties the Zionist movement has faced is being a colonial movement that took place just as colonialism was falling out of fashion politically to be replaced by nationalism.  The lukewarm commitment of Britain to Zionism in the interwar era is due in part to that.  I'm quite sympathetic to the idea of a Jewish homeland, but unlike DavidB, not with regard of the existing inhabitants of whatever area it was established in. (Tho a Jewish state carved out of Germany after World War II, say with a capital in ex-Nuremberg, would meet my sense of justice.)

As for me liking Jews only as subservient inferiors, perhaps DavidB is transferring views he may hold about the Arabs to me. I think one would have to view Arabs as inferior to Jews to think that Zionism is about "liberating" the land.

I love how this thread went from denying a terrorist act to denying that Jews lived in the region of what is now Israel.

I don't deny that they were there, but for close to two millennia they were far from being the majority in that region.  Even now, demographically, Israel can't incorporate all the area it wants to control within its borders and remain a Jewish democracy unless it somehow could manage to expel a sizable portion of the Arabs living there now.

[SATW]

You would be one of the Mizrahim or the Sephardim.

My grandfather sometimes said he rather admired the early Zionists. They were mostly German or English or Austrian. They built an orderly, modern state from scratch. But then they had to go and bring your kind in.

It is absolutely disgusting the way they flew in those Jews from Yemen, ape-people who didn't even know how to use the toilets on the planes they flew them in on. And the Persians were just as bad. And then came the Russian gangsters.

And meanwhile my father's family's ancestral village, which used to be a civilized, Christian place, has been overrun by savage Mohammedans - the ones who stab people like you.

It's really shameful what your kind have done to the place.

Are you fycking drunk? That is literally the only reason I can think of for being so overtly racist when it comes to Mizrahim, and it doesn't make it any better. This line of reasoning almost makes me throw up.

I don't even respond to IndyTexas' stupidity. He's always been a lost cause. People like Horus bother me much more.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I don't even respond to IndyTexas' stupidity.

I did.  I reported it.  That sort of language he used about the Yemeni Jews has no place on this forum.

[Murica!]

I love how this thread went from denying a terrorist act to denying that Jews lived in the region of what is now Israel.

I don't deny that they were there, but for close to two millennia they were far from being the majority in that region.  Even now, demographically, Israel can't incorporate all the area it wants to control within its borders and remain a Jewish democracy unless it somehow could manage to expel a sizable portion of the Arabs living there now.

No, you seem to have a alright position, I'm mostly talking about Horus's extremely poorly thought out and obtuse post earlier.

[SATW]

I disagree strongly with Ernest's opinions, but I think he's a valuable poster here. I have no issues with him and enjoy reading some of his posts on different topics.

But, Horus and IndyTexas are different stories.

[Zioneer]

Horus is going back on ignore for the most ridiculous statement I have ever read in my life. I say this as a Mizrahi/Sephardic Jew.

You would be one of the Mizrahim or the Sephardim.

My grandfather sometimes said he rather admired the early Zionists. They were mostly German or English or Austrian. They built an orderly, modern state from scratch. But then they had to go and bring your kind in.

It is absolutely disgusting the way they flew in those Jews from Yemen, ape-people who didn't even know how to use the toilets on the planes they flew them in on. And the Persians were just as bad. And then came the Russian gangsters.

And meanwhile my father's family's ancestral village, which used to be a civilized, Christian place, has been overrun by savage Mohammedans - the ones who stab people like you.

It's really shameful what your kind have done to the place.

Uh, that's really racist, to basically everyone involved in your statement.

[SATW]

Lol. It's like watching a person with a PCP addiction running wild. IndyTexas, I think you need to reevaluate your views. Living life full of hatred is not good for the soul.

[SATW]

I don't even respond to IndyTexas' stupidity.

I did.  I reported it.  That sort of language he used about the Yemeni Jews has no place on this forum.

I'm merely pointing out the differences in bathroom habits of the various peoples of the Middle East in the early 20th century.

They didn't know how to use toilets then and if you go to Yemen today a good number of them still don't.

So sue me.

Clearly you have been drinking out of one to make disgusting comments like these.

[Zioneer]

I don't even respond to IndyTexas' stupidity.

I did.  I reported it.  That sort of language he used about the Yemeni Jews has no place on this forum.

I'm merely pointing out the differences in bathroom habits of the various peoples of the Middle East in the early 20th century.

They didn't know how to use toilets then and if you go to Yemen today a good number of them still don't.

So sue me.

Man, I have disagreed with basically everyone DavidB has been posting in this thread, but you're much, much worse.

[SATW]

I don't even respond to IndyTexas' stupidity.

I did.  I reported it.  That sort of language he used about the Yemeni Jews has no place on this forum.

I'm merely pointing out the differences in bathroom habits of the various peoples of the Middle East in the early 20th century.

They didn't know how to use toilets then and if you go to Yemen today a good number of them still don't.

So sue me.

Clearly you have been drinking out of one to make disgusting comments like these.

Not Manischewitz, I'm afraid.

lmao.

I've given you enough attention for one night, I'm done here.

[SATW]

Whoever mods this board, can this thread be closed? It's not going in a positive direction anytime soon, I'm afraid

Also, enjoy ignore, Indy.

[NeverAgain]

Whoever mods this board, can this thread be closed? It's not going in a positive direction anytime soon, I'm afraid

Also, enjoy ignore, Indy.

I guess I can lock it... This was intended to be a discussion on the King David Bombing and Netanyahu's comments of such.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

Horus is going back on ignore for the most ridiculous statement I have ever read in my life. I say this as a Mizrahi/Sephardic Jew.

You would be one of the Mizrahim or the Sephardim.

My grandfather sometimes said he rather admired the early Zionists. They were mostly German or English or Austrian. They built an orderly, modern state from scratch. But then they had to go and bring your kind in.

It is absolutely disgusting the way they flew in those Jews from Yemen, ape-people who didn't even know how to use the toilets on the planes they flew them in on. And the Persians were just as bad. And then came the Russian gangsters.

And meanwhile my father's family's ancestral village, which used to be a civilized, Christian place, has been overrun by savage Mohammedans - the ones who stab people like you.

It's really shameful what your kind have done to the place.

Jesus Christ, I mean, we'd all suspected you were anti-semitic, but there'd been a vague hope of not vocalizing it until now. For all your praise of WASPy, effeminate, urbane, -1 E, -7 S, liberal yankee paternal Republicans from New England, it appears you're little more than the allegedly troglodytical common folk you purport to despise.  

[SATW]

Whoever mods this board, can this thread be closed? It's not going in a positive direction anytime soon, I'm afraid

Also, enjoy ignore, Indy.

I guess I can lock it... This was intended to be a discussion on the King David Bombing and Netanyahu's comments of such.

yea, I thought it was decent thread. I enjoy conversations like this, even if it's diametrically opposed to my own viewpoints, but Indy (and Horus) completely hijacked it, sadly.