what percentage of the gay vote will Santorum get?

[Keystone Phil]

Depends upon whether he comes out before the election or not.

I was gonna say the same thing.  As I have said before I think the man's bitter for being raped by a priest when he was a 12 year old altar boy.  I also think he loved it and he's trying to cure himself.

Sadly I think it's homegrown by his parents. And even sadder is there are millions of kids being brainwashed the same way.

I guess no one is allowed to be opposed to gay marriage anymore, Akno? No one should be able to say "I don't approve of a gay lifestyle?"

What exactly is the gay lifestyle? Snorting Cocaine and doing casual sex or something? This would be a shock to my gay friends, who are perfectly nice people. Many aren't even sexually attracted to men, just romantically - they just want to be able to someday be recognized as loving their partner.

Anyone who generalizes an entire group to one "lifestyle" is a blind fool who thinks that stereotyping poor behavior over an entire group is appropriate.

I assume, Phil, that is not what you meant to do. I hope, at least.

I do not mean what you stated. I think that just because I don't accept the idea of most gays that they should marry and some other things they do that I should be branded a gay hater or that I was brainwashed. 

Now just as you stated the generalization of gays is foolish, so is the generalization that someone like Santorum, who wants to preserve the insitution of mariage, is a gay hater. I'm tired of that. I'm also tired of hearing that Santorum was raped by a priest from some angry partisan who needs to seek some serious help. You don't say that about people.

[Alcon]

I guess no one is allowed to be opposed to gay marriage anymore, Akno? No one should be able to say "I don't approve of a gay lifestyle?"

What exactly is the gay lifestyle? Snorting Cocaine and doing casual sex or something? This would be a shock to my gay friends, who are perfectly nice people. Many aren't even sexually attracted to men, just romantically - they just want to be able to someday be recognized as loving their partner.

Anyone who generalizes an entire group to one "lifestyle" is a blind fool who thinks that stereotyping poor behavior over an entire group is appropriate.

I assume, Phil, that is not what you meant to do. I hope, at least.

I do not mean what you stated. I think that just because I don't accept the idea of most gays that they should marry and some other things they do that I should be branded a gay hater or that I was brainwashed. 

Now just as you stated the generalization of gays is foolish, so is the generalization that someone like Santorum, who wants to preserve the insitution of mariage, is a gay hater. I'm tired of that. I'm also tired of hearing that Santorum was raped by a priest from some angry partisan who needs to seek some serious help. You don't say that about people.

I don't think people should be branded that way.

I honestly must tell you that I don't buy "preserving the institution of marriage" for a moment. You are uncomfortable around gay people and reflect that in your political atitude.

I have no problem with that, but the institution of marriage alone suggests that you believe letting gays in would hurt it. So, this truly is a result of you being uncomfortable - I personally think it would improve the institution of marriage.

I personally don't care. It doesn't hurt my life, and it improves theirs. It isn't going to stop me from getting married, nor anyone else. Saying that gays would ruin the institution of marriage is saying that their love is of an inferior quality to heterosexual love. End of story.

What IrishDemocrat says is foul and horrible, and he should be ashamed of himself, but I still do not believe for a moment that you find heterosexual love on the same level as homosexual love.

[Keystone Phil]

I guess no one is allowed to be opposed to gay marriage anymore, Akno? No one should be able to say "I don't approve of a gay lifestyle?"

What exactly is the gay lifestyle? Snorting Cocaine and doing casual sex or something? This would be a shock to my gay friends, who are perfectly nice people. Many aren't even sexually attracted to men, just romantically - they just want to be able to someday be recognized as loving their partner.

Anyone who generalizes an entire group to one "lifestyle" is a blind fool who thinks that stereotyping poor behavior over an entire group is appropriate.

I assume, Phil, that is not what you meant to do. I hope, at least.

I do not mean what you stated. I think that just because I don't accept the idea of most gays that they should marry and some other things they do that I should be branded a gay hater or that I was brainwashed. 

Now just as you stated the generalization of gays is foolish, so is the generalization that someone like Santorum, who wants to preserve the insitution of mariage, is a gay hater. I'm tired of that. I'm also tired of hearing that Santorum was raped by a priest from some angry partisan who needs to seek some serious help. You don't say that about people.

I don't think people should be branded that way.

I honestly must tell you that I don't buy "preserving the institution of marriage" for a moment. You are uncomfortable around gay people and reflect that in your political atitude.

I have no problem with that, but the institution of marriage alone suggests that you believe letting gays in would hurt it. So, this truly is a result of you being uncomfortable - I personally think it would improve the institution of marriage.

I personally don't care. It doesn't hurt my life, and it improves theirs. It isn't going to stop me from getting married, nor anyone else. Saying that gays would ruin the institution of marriage is saying that their love is of an inferior quality to heterosexual love. End of story.

What IrishDemocrat says is foul and horrible, and he should be ashamed of himself, but I still do not believe for a moment that you find heterosexual love on the same level as homosexual love.

Excuse me, Alcon but don't tell me that I'm uncomfortable around anyone if you don't know me personally. I am for marriage being between a man and a woman. I don't think that means I am suddenly uncomfortable around a certain group of people. If that is the case, I guess all those who oppose gay marriage on your side are simply hiding their dislike for gays, right?

As for BL's comments, I don't know why you would tie that in with the way I feel about love. It has nothing to do with the subject. I stated that I am opposed to gay marriage. Don't like that? Too bad. I want you to comment on whether or not Kerry or Dean think gay love is on the same level of straight love because after all they are opposed to gay marriage too....or are you just targeting me because I'm a Republican and a Santorum fan, Alcon?

[Alcon]

Excuse me, Alcon but don't tell me that I'm uncomfortable around anyone if you don't know me personally. I am for marriage being between a man and a woman. I don't think that means I am suddenly uncomfortable around a certain group of people. If that is the case, I guess all those who oppose gay marriage on your side are simply hiding their dislike for gays, right?

As for BL's comments, I don't know why you would tie that in with the way I feel about love. It has nothing to do with the subject. I stated that I am opposed to gay marriage. Don't like that? Too bad. I want you to comment on whether or not Kerry or Dean think gay love is on the same level of straight love because after all they are opposed to gay marriage too....or are you just targeting me because I'm a Republican and a Santorum fan, Alcon?

First of all, I may be crazy, but I thought you previously have said that you are uncomfortable around gay people. I may be thinking of someone else. I would not accuse someone of something like this without further proof. The fact that you believe maintaining the dictionary definition of marriage over giving happiness to millions of people who feel that their love is "wrong" shows that your priorities are not with the latter. That says something.

I truly do not care what Kerry or Dean think on the subject. I am not them. However, I personally do not see what the "sanctity of marriage" is. The religiousness of it? Do you not think gay marriages are holy marriages? Or their love, for that matter, is worth that sanctity?

Do you, out of curiosity, believe that homosexual and heterosexual love is on an equal level?

In any case, I really do not care whether you like Santorum. I am "targeting you" (if that is what you call replying to your post) because I disagree with it, not because you like some random senator.

[Keystone Phil]

Excuse me, Alcon but don't tell me that I'm uncomfortable around anyone if you don't know me personally. I am for marriage being between a man and a woman. I don't think that means I am suddenly uncomfortable around a certain group of people. If that is the case, I guess all those who oppose gay marriage on your side are simply hiding their dislike for gays, right?

As for BL's comments, I don't know why you would tie that in with the way I feel about love. It has nothing to do with the subject. I stated that I am opposed to gay marriage. Don't like that? Too bad. I want you to comment on whether or not Kerry or Dean think gay love is on the same level of straight love because after all they are opposed to gay marriage too....or are you just targeting me because I'm a Republican and a Santorum fan, Alcon?

First of all, I may be crazy, but I thought you previously have said that you are uncomfortable around gay people. I may be thinking of someone else. I would not accuse someone of something like this without further proof. The fact that you believe maintaining the dictionary definition of marriage over giving happiness to millions of people who feel that their love is "wrong" shows that your priorities are not with the latter. That says something.

I truly do not care what Kerry or Dean think on the subject. I am not them. However, I personally do not see what the "sanctity of marriage" is. The religiousness of it? Do you not think gay marriages are holy marriages? Or their love, for that matter, is worth that sanctity?

Do you, out of curiosity, believe that homosexual and heterosexual love is on an equal level?

In any case, I really do not care whether you like Santorum. I am "targeting you" (if that is what you call replying to your post) because I disagree with it, not because you like some random senator.

I said I would be uncomfortable if a gay person came up to me and started hitting on me as would most people.

And don't you dare say I'm denying happiness to anyone. Gay people can have happiness. Don't even go there. This is where people like myself are portrayed as "gay haters" because of those comments.

If you don't care what Kerry or Dean (members of your party) think, then we will end this conversation. You say you don't care what their position is because you are not them? Well you're not me either, Alcon. You obviously want to attack me yet refuse to acknowledge that some your fellow Democrats are against gay marriage, too.

If you want to target me, target Dean and Kerry and every other anti-gay marriage Democrat, Alcon. Don't be a hypocrite.

[Alcon]

I said I would be uncomfortable if a gay person came up to me and started hitting on me as would most people.

That is not the quote I was thinking about. It was someone else. My apologies.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

If people portray you that way because of my comments, shame on them. Hate and disagreement are two very different things. From my conversations with people who are gay, I have found that this is a sore spot, regardless of what you think - it is a completion, less so than happiness. This was poorly worded, but my meaning was the same.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

You know me, Phil. Am I a party cheerleader? Really, because as far as I know, the only reason I am a Democrat is because my politics matches the party. Hell, I feel no deep love for my party or its members. I agree with them frequently, but there are a lot of people who I agree with and don't like.

Don't think I'm attacking you - I am not. I am trying to interpret what I see as your beliefs, and you are free to correct me. I have no desire to attack you, as it gives me no gain.

I'm not sure how not caring about what Dean or Kerry thinks of gay marriage is not acknowledging it. I do acknowledge it, in the same way I acknowledge that the capital of Iceland is Reykjavik and don't even remotely care. If they were on this message board, too, I would care, yet I don't.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

There are many bad things I am, I am sure, but I am not a hypocrite. In fact, I'm not sure how if I was doing that it would be hypocritical since I'm not accusing you of not targeting some sort of group, but that is besides the point.

I disagree with their positions. If they were here, I would be having this same debate with them. And why would I not? You infer that I don't target Democrats because I agree with them - yet here I don't! What sort of political gain could I make from not attacking them? What sort of gain could I make from attacking you? I'm not a candidate for any office.

You are feeling personally attacked too easily here, I am afraid. I may be doing something I do not realize, but trying to understand your feelings on this is very different from what other people have done by attacking you and I am disappointed that you feel that I am doing the same thing.

[Keystone Phil]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

You know me, Phil. Am I a party cheerleader? Really, because as far as I know, the only reason I am a Democrat is because my politics matches the party. Hell, I feel no deep love for my party or its members. I agree with them frequently, but there are a lot of people who I agree with and don't like.

Don't think I'm attacking you - I am not. I am trying to interpret what I see as your beliefs, and you are free to correct me. I have no desire to attack you, as it gives me no gain.

I'm not sure how not caring about what Dean or Kerry thinks of gay marriage is not acknowledging it. I do acknowledge it, in the same way I acknowledge that the capital of Iceland is Reykjavik and don't even remotely care. If they were on this message board, too, I would care, yet I don't.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

There are many bad things I am, I am sure, but I am not a hypocrite. In fact, I'm not sure how if I was doing that it would be hypocritical since I'm not accusing you of not targeting some sort of group, but that is besides the point.

I disagree with their positions. If they were here, I would be having this same debate with them. And why would I not? You infer that I don't target Democrats because I agree with them - yet here I don't! What sort of political gain could I make from not attacking them? What sort of gain could I make from attacking you? I'm not a candidate for any office.

You are feeling personally attacked too easily here, I am afraid. I may be doing something I do not realize, but trying to understand your feelings on this is very different from what other people have done by attacking you and I am disappointed that you feel that I am doing the same thing.

You said earlier that you didn't care that Kerry and Dean were anti-gay marriage but you attack me for having the same position.

I have explained my position. I have stated that I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. That's final. You then tried your own form of generalization by saying I am against gay marriage simply because I am uncomfortable around gay people. That's what really started this debate. So stop saying you want to continue it to find out why I have this position. You know it now and you've known it before. And, finally, if you don't like generalizations, don't start making up some.

[Alcon]

You said earlier that you didn't care that Kerry and Dean were anti-gay marriage but you attack me for having the same position.

I don't care that you are either. I'm not interested in changing your opinion, but rather in understanding them. I equally disagree with Kerry and Dean as I do with you because you all have the same belief. I can't understand how anyone could possibly see the same issue as differently because someone is in their own party. That is a stupid concept that only partisan idiots could agree with.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I understand that you think that, but my question is what you believe the sanctity of marriage is. I have never had anyone respond to this question - ever. Everyone always stops at your point. 60% of the population agrees with you, and this is the one issue I haven't been able to understand the opposition to. That is all I want to know - what you consider the sanctity of marriage to be.

I already apologized for saying that you are uncomfortable around them. I misremembered something that you had said, and am at fault for that. I really do apologize. I tried to find the post first to assure I was correct, but it has been buried.

I think that when you understand that I started that post not understanding your feeling towards gay people, the post will make a lot more sense, and again I truly do apologize for the mix-up. I do not want to demonize you, a person who I very much respect.

[Keystone Phil]

You said earlier that you didn't care that Kerry and Dean were anti-gay marriage but you attack me for having the same position.

 I can't understand how anyone could possibly see the same issue as differently because someone is in their own party. That is a stupid concept that only partisan idiots could agree with.

Well I thought you kept ignoring it for that reason. You wouldn't address my point about that.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I understand that you think that, but my question is what you believe the sanctity of marriage is. I have never had anyone respond to this question - ever. Everyone always stops at your point. 60% of the population agrees with you, and this is the one issue I haven't been able to understand the opposition to. That is all I want to know - what you consider the sanctity of marriage to be.

The sanctity of marriage is the bond between a man and a woman. I believe it is a gift from God because through marriage, the love shared by two individuals, new life is brought into this world.

[Alcon]

Do you support civil unions?

[Keystone Phil]

Do you support civil unions?

Never actually made up my mind on this issue but I would lean towards being in favor of civil unions.

[Alcon]

Do you support civil unions?

Never actually made up my mind on this issue but I would lean towards being in favor of civil unions.

Although I disagree with you on gay marriage itself, I can understand that and even respect that.

Thank you very much. I apologize for sounding aggressive, which in retrospect I probably did. I've been talking with CARLHAYDEN too much.

[J. J.]

The sanctity of marriage is the bond between a man and a woman. I believe it is a gift from God because through marriage, the love shared by two individuals, new life is brought into this world.

Alcon, traditionally, many denominations have taken this view of marriage, and, in all fairness to be a type of property contract.  Many people see the sole reason for marriage to be procreation.  It is biologically impossible for same sex couples to naturally procreate.

[Alcon]

The sanctity of marriage is the bond between a man and a woman. I believe it is a gift from God because through marriage, the love shared by two individuals, new life is brought into this world.

Alcon, traditionally, many denominations have taken this view of marriage, and, in all fairness to be a type of property contract.  Many people see the sole reason for marriage to be procreation.  It is biologically impossible for same sex couples to naturally procreate.

I do not see marriage as being for procreation, as there are many married couples with no children and many unmarried couples with them.

I really think marriage should be a contract of love, not a property/religious/whatever one.

[Keystone Phil]

The sanctity of marriage is the bond between a man and a woman. I believe it is a gift from God because through marriage, the love shared by two individuals, new life is brought into this world.

Alcon, traditionally, many denominations have taken this view of marriage, and, in all fairness to be a type of property contract.  Many people see the sole reason for marriage to be procreation.  It is biologically impossible for same sex couples to naturally procreate.

I really think marriage should be a contract of love

In that case, why don't same sex couples have their own little ceremony and proclaim that they are "married?" Two gay people can truly love each other without getting married. That's why I get angry whenever I see a gay couple on TV saying "We just want to get married because of love. Love is all we want to share." No that's not the situation. Benefits, taxes...THAT'S the reason. That's why I'd consider being in favor of civil unions but not marriage.

[bergie72]

The sanctity of marriage is the bond between a man and a woman. I believe it is a gift from God because through marriage, the love shared by two individuals, new life is brought into this world.

I know I'm going to regret getting in to this, but if marriage between a man and woman is to bring in new life, then to do we need to further define marriages as just that?  Do we need to have fertility testing prior to marriage, and if either person is infertile, they can't be married?  Or couples that have no desire to have children?  Or, older people who may be past child-bearing age that want to be married? 

IMO, marriage should be a contract between two consenting people, no different than organizing a business or any other legally binding matter.  It is up to the individuals to define how that contract should be carried out.  And if they wish or desire a religious aspect to the execution of that contract (a church marriage), than that is their right. 

But those people should not have the right to impose their will, beliefs or desires on others who to wish to conduct their business differently.

<stepping off his soapbox>

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays everyone!!!

Oh, and to get back to the topic on this thread, I think Santorum could pull 10% of the gay vote.  If there is more emphasis put on economic issues than social, the percentage could go higher.  I know I will NOT be voting for him, and I will be working with other organizations to get Rick out of office in 2006.

[Alcon]

The sanctity of marriage is the bond between a man and a woman. I believe it is a gift from God because through marriage, the love shared by two individuals, new life is brought into this world.

Alcon, traditionally, many denominations have taken this view of marriage, and, in all fairness to be a type of property contract.  Many people see the sole reason for marriage to be procreation.  It is biologically impossible for same sex couples to naturally procreate.

I really think marriage should be a contract of love

In that case, why don't same sex couples have their own little ceremony and proclaim that they are "married?" Two gay people can truly love each other without getting married. That's why I get angry whenever I see a gay couple on TV saying "We just want to get married because of love. Love is all we want to share." No that's not the situation. Benefits, taxes...THAT'S the reason. That's why I'd consider being in favor of civil unions but not marriage.

Well, of course it is for the benefits and taxes. That's what heterosexual marriage is for, too. The legal definition of marriage, I believe, should be seperate from personal definitions. Churches could not perform gay marriages if they so desired in my view; however, I do not think government marriage should be anything other than the taxes or whatnot. It is not the government's job to enforce moral standards.

[Keystone Phil]

The sanctity of marriage is the bond between a man and a woman. I believe it is a gift from God because through marriage, the love shared by two individuals, new life is brought into this world.

Alcon, traditionally, many denominations have taken this view of marriage, and, in all fairness to be a type of property contract.  Many people see the sole reason for marriage to be procreation.  It is biologically impossible for same sex couples to naturally procreate.

I really think marriage should be a contract of love

In that case, why don't same sex couples have their own little ceremony and proclaim that they are "married?" Two gay people can truly love each other without getting married. That's why I get angry whenever I see a gay couple on TV saying "We just want to get married because of love. Love is all we want to share." No that's not the situation. Benefits, taxes...THAT'S the reason. That's why I'd consider being in favor of civil unions but not marriage.

however, I do not think government marriage should be anything other than the taxes or whatnot. It is not the government's job to enforce moral standards.

But you just said that marriage is a contract of love. It looks like you left out the taxes and benefits in your earlier statements.

[Alcon]

The sanctity of marriage is the bond between a man and a woman. I believe it is a gift from God because through marriage, the love shared by two individuals, new life is brought into this world.

Alcon, traditionally, many denominations have taken this view of marriage, and, in all fairness to be a type of property contract.  Many people see the sole reason for marriage to be procreation.  It is biologically impossible for same sex couples to naturally procreate.

I really think marriage should be a contract of love

In that case, why don't same sex couples have their own little ceremony and proclaim that they are "married?" Two gay people can truly love each other without getting married. That's why I get angry whenever I see a gay couple on TV saying "We just want to get married because of love. Love is all we want to share." No that's not the situation. Benefits, taxes...THAT'S the reason. That's why I'd consider being in favor of civil unions but not marriage.

however, I do not think government marriage should be anything other than the taxes or whatnot. It is not the government's job to enforce moral standards.

But you just said that marriage is a contract of love. It looks like you left out the taxes and benefits in your earlier statements.

Honestly, I didn't really think about that. As someone who doesn't pay taxes, they are not in the front of my mind.

I think marriage should be a contract of love, yes. However, I think the government's definition of marriage should not have anything to do with love. The government works best as a cold, heartless machine.

[ilikeverin]

I think that there should be givil unions for all

And churches can marry Bob Jones and his favorite pet rock Ty if they really wanted to.  But they could not apply for a civil union becuase Ty is not sentient.

[Smash255]

Depends upon whether he comes out before the election or not.

I was gonna say the same thing.  As I have said before I think the man's bitter for being raped by a priest when he was a 12 year old altar boy.  I also think he loved it and he's trying to cure himself.

Sadly I think it's homegrown by his parents. And even sadder is there are millions of kids being brainwashed the same way.

I guess no one is allowed to be opposed to gay marriage anymore, Akno? No one should be able to say "I don't approve of a gay lifestyle?"

What exactly is the gay lifestyle? Snorting Cocaine and doing casual sex or something? This would be a shock to my gay friends, who are perfectly nice people. Many aren't even sexually attracted to men, just romantically - they just want to be able to someday be recognized as loving their partner.

Anyone who generalizes an entire group to one "lifestyle" is a blind fool who thinks that stereotyping poor behavior over an entire group is appropriate.

I assume, Phil, that is not what you meant to do. I hope, at least.

I do not mean what you stated. I think that just because I don't accept the idea of most gays that they should marry and some other things they do that I should be branded a gay hater or that I was brainwashed. 

Now just as you stated the generalization of gays is foolish, so is the generalization that someone like Santorum, who wants to preserve the insitution of mariage, is a gay hater. I'm tired of that. I'm also tired of hearing that Santorum was raped by a priest from some angry partisan who needs to seek some serious help. You don't say that about people.

I completley agree that the priest comment was over the line.

However Mr Santorum iis far from an innocent man.  His comments speak volumes.  He isn't about so called "preseving traaditional marriage".  The man has nothing but a pure & utter deep hatred for gays.  Just look at the guy's comments.  Comparing gays to beastitality.  THAT IS HATE.  If it wasn't hate & that he just opposed gay marriage, he would have said just that & not thrown in the beastiality crap into the mix.  Santorum gets villified as a gay hater not because that he opposes gay marriage, but because of his utter hate filled comments.

[Keystone Phil]

Santorum's comments were over the line but I really don't think he hates gay people. I hope that in one of the Senatorial debates in 2006 that someone asks Santorum "Do you hate gays?" so he can explain his full position. I truly believe that he is not a hateful man.

[Alcon]

Santorum's comments were over the line but I really don't think he hates gay people. I hope that in one of the Senatorial debates in 2006 that someone asks Santorum "Do you hate gays?" so he can explain his full position. I truly believe that he is not a hateful man.

I think that his speeches where he compared gay marriage to a man marrying (and, inferred by that, copulating with) a turtle and other such scenarios were all uncalled for.  I can see his positions, but I am afraid that the man is not a reserved public speaker. I have a quote book which features a lot of truly questionable things Santorum has said that I got for Christmas. Some of it should never have come out of his mouth.

[Smash255]

Santorum's comments were over the line but I really don't think he hates gay people. I hope that in one of the Senatorial debates in 2006 that someone asks Santorum "Do you hate gays?" so he can explain his full position. I truly believe that he is not a hateful man.

Just  look at what he said.  I know he is your hero and everything and you don't think he is capable of being full of hate, just look at the comments.  Those comments WERE AND ARE HATE

[Keystone Phil]

Santorum's comments were over the line but I really don't think he hates gay people. I hope that in one of the Senatorial debates in 2006 that someone asks Santorum "Do you hate gays?" so he can explain his full position. I truly believe that he is not a hateful man.

Just  look at what he said.  I know he is your hero and everything and you don't think he is capable of being full of hate, just look at the comments.  Those comments WERE AND ARE HATE

If he really hated gays, he would come out and say it. He speaks his mind. We already know that.