SENATE BILL: The 'DREAM' Act (Law'd)

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

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Status: Senators have 24 hours to object.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

The amendment has passed.


So did Franzls, my post on that one appears to have vanished.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

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Status: Vote to come soon!

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I oppose this laxing of the standards.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

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Status: Senators this amendment is now vote, so vote Aye, Nay or Abstain.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

NAY! NO WAY IN HELL!!!

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Vote on Amendment 52:03:

Aye (6): Averroës Nix, Franzl, JulioMadrid, Oakvale, Simfan34, and Snowstalker
Nay (3): Ben, HagridoftheDeep and NC Yankee
Abstain (0):

Didn't Vote (1): Marokai Blue

The amendment has passed.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Do we have direction on this bill? any more amendemnts etc?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

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Just realized several of the previous amendments weren't altered as we went and thus those offered at the same time and those evne offered later didn't incporante say Franzl's amendment. Fortunately, I can use the clause in the OSPR stating that amendments only change the specified pieces to avoid this from becoming a disaster.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

A final vote request has been entered by Senator Yankee and no debate has occured in the last 24 hours.


Senators, tihs bill is now at final vote, please vote Aye, Nay or Abstain.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

NOT AS ENTHUSIASTICALLY AYE AS IT WOULD HAVE BEEN

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

This has enough votes to pass, Senators have 24 hours to change their votes.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Perhaps, I should formally present this at midnight.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Yes, you already voted here.

I am going to go ahead and end this, there is no way to acheive precise timing, I would need to effectuate what I mentioned earlier.

Final Vote on Passage of The Dream Act:

Aye (9): Averroës Nix, Ben, Franzl, HagridOfTheDeep, JulioMadrid, Marokai Blue, NC Yankee, Simfan34 and Snowstalker.
Nay (1): Oakvale
Abstain (0):

Didn't Vote (0):

The bill has passed the Senate and is presented to the President for his signature or veto.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

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[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

So I take it then that you have vetoed this and have offered a redraft, Mr. President?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

ONCE QUIT PULLING A DAMN ANTONIO, HERE!!!! Only, Nathan, myself and Ben (when both myself and the VP have been gone for five days minimum or other specified and involved circumstnaces detailed in the OSPR are invoked, which they haven't been), MAY ALTER SENATE BUSINESS!!!!

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

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The President has returned the underlying bill with a preferred redraft. The sponsor, Senator Ben, has requested a vote on the above redraft. This is a simple majority vote and will be conducted according to the same rules a final vote (please don't take seven days here. ). Senators please vote, Aye, Nay or Abstain.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

NAY!!! NOT ONLY NO, BUT HELL NO!!!!!!

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

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If this fails, the sponsor can motion to resume debate. Hence why I mentioned the issue with the slot in the PM last night, which seems to have confused some. I feared as much. Anyway we can amend the bill at that point, even if this fails.

I would be fine with removing the GPA requirement for the military personell. But I want it maintainined for the College path. There is a tendency for colleges to drop their standards or create junk programs just to look good, or in the case of the athletics, get the good players who aren't necessarily college material and thus rake in the dough in football. Considering the amount of pressure exerted by certain groups on this immigration issue, I would fear a good number of the colleges would start to recieve and likely would submit to such pressure and thus would start to establish or utilize existing programs with low or even no standards to get degress into the hands of some of these illegals who are by no means college material. I don't want institutions of higher learning to become further degraded by yet another influence with motives other than getting people educated.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

By your logic, Mr. President, why not just let the entire world just stroll into the country?

I thought it was well-understood by all when the bill was proposed that everyone affected by this is already in the country.

As effective a point that may be, passed results from amnesty programs, that were likewise only applied to people already here, resulted in even more illegals being present in the country afterwards. That happened after 1986 and again after 1996, precisely because

1) Amnesties/Paths to Legal Status are incentives in and of themselves and especially once you are doing it cyclically even whilst they are sold as "permenent fixes".

2) The enforcement measures rarely if ever materialize as promised.

Applicability to only current illegals, is hardly a solid provision in terms of removing the open borders encouraging incentivization inherent in the concept.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

None of that really has anything to do with the actual question. The question is not "What, if any, restrictions should be placed on citizenship applicants related to their high school grade point average?". The question is "Why should restrictions be placed on citizenship applicants related to their high school grade point average?".

The problem with the President's viewpoint and even some of the Senators, is that they makes no distinction between legal and illegal immigrants. Thus he doesn't account for that fact that you are making a big loophole in the law with the bill itself. Considering that, I don't think asking some conditions be met in return for us generously waiving our immigration laws for a specified group of people, is too much to ask. Some senators refer to this as jumping through hoops. No, jumping through hoops is the ridiculous red tape and bureaucratic nonsense in the legal process that has inflated illegal immigration numbers ( because people who would be legal otherwise, fell through the cracks) and encourage more illegal immigration (if the enforcement is lax on the illegal side, the complexity of the legal process is the perfect "repellent" from doing it the legal way). Asking that a group of people who have already violated our laws to meet a few simple and straightforward standards to demonstrate their good faith and intent to be law abiding and productive citizens if granted such status, is a reasonable demand to make and is both in their interest as well as everyone elses that they meet these requirements.

Even beyond all that, is that you have a large number of people who will in fact seek to take advantage and abuse this program. For those who think that having immigration laws or any enforcement of the borders at all is contrary to our heritage, I guess there would be a collective response of "Fantastic". However, for those of who live in real ville where every country has limits including us (and the only way to maintain those limits is to control who enters the country and when, and in turn only way to do that is to make sure you have immigration laws that are taken seriously), that isn't something that kind of behavior isn't something which can be allowed to occur. We have to make sure that this program meets its intended purposes. One of the big reasons there was such a public outcry on the immigration issue is because people have seen gov't not take it seriously and lack faith and trust in the gov't to keep its promises here. Considering the record, there is much justification for that viewpoint.

We have these people who didn't follow the legal path to get here, in my opinion any path to legalization, more or less citizenship, would be the perpetuation of a failed policy and strategy of cyclical mass amnesty and thus a mistake that should be avoided. However, this specific subgroup were not competent decision makers when they arrived and thus there is a legimate reason in my opinion to bend a little and create a "conditioned path" only for them. That is what this bill does in return for making sure that certain standards are met. Some of these standards ensure that legal status/citizenship is earned through making contributions to society, and in the process of doing that, helps the perspective citizens get a leg up in society, rather being handed citizenship and then dumped on the outer fringes of society. They can earn there way into a better standard of living at the same time they earn citizenship and we can ensure that the program isn't being corrupted or abused.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

This is 2-2-3-2



Come on people.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

So what's the verdict?

I haven't the slightest idea. I really don't track who voted what until the end. So until I dive back though and see who switched and what they were before, I am just as clueless as you.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Vote on President's Redraft:

Aye (1): JulioMadrid
Nay (4): HagridOfTheDeep, Marokai Blue, NC Yankee and Snowstalker
Abstain (4): Averroës Nix, Franzl, Oakvale, and Simfan34

Didn't Vote (1): Ben

The vote on the redraft has failed to achieve passage. The sponsor may either motion to send the bill back up to the President as is (basically what he already rejected) or motion to resume debate on the bill.