Snowguy's Climate Change Discussion Thread
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Author Topic: Snowguy's Climate Change Discussion Thread  (Read 734 times)
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snowguy716
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« on: July 08, 2013, 06:06:52 PM »

This is the best way for me to satisfy my spergiosity without cluttering up the boards.  Also Harry doesn't have to read this if he doesn't want to.  Smiley

http://hockeyschtick.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/science-is-about-evidence-not-consensus_8.html

Science is about evidence, not consensus.  You should never "believe" in a theory because there's a consensus. 

But when the evidence starts to come up short, the hand wringers and arm wavers will appeal to consensus to try and "prove" that their theory is correct.

The facts presented in the article are pretty basic in climate science now:

There is no hockey stick.  Every hockey stick graph has been quickly torn down upon release. 

The process with the latest hockeystick started a few years ago when Keith Briffa released a hockeystick graph that was supposed to corroborate Michael Mann's original hockeystick from 1998.  But Steve McIntyre was able to quickly show some glaring mistakes in the work... including much over reliance on one tree in northern Russia that suddenly began to grow much faster in the late 20th century.  This greatly skewed the graph to show a hockeystick.  Instead, it is likely that a neighboring tree died... and this freed up more nutrients for this tree to grow.

But McIntyre was slandered by the alarmists including many prominent climate scientists who called him a "confusionist denier".

Now Briffa finished the analysis that showed no hockey stick... but a plateauing of temperatures after the mid 1970s that coincides with a change in the main multi-decade Pacific Decadal Oscillation (PDO) and led to a similar change in Alaska's climate.  That is.. the warmest years of the 20th century were not at the end.. but in 1978 and 1981 in Alaska.. soon after the big PDO shift when the most warm water was hugging the coast of North America from the Aleutians to Mexico.  The same goes for places like San Diego.

But recently the PDO has become consistently negative.  The accumulative index of the PDO changed from increase to decrease in 2005 and 19 of the 20 main weather stations in Alaska have shown a dramatic cooling trend since 2000.. but especially after 2005.

Despite the hoopla over the heat wave that struck for a couple days in June, periods of record cold have been much more common in the past 3 years.  This year that was illustrated by the record latest break up of the Nenana River in central Alaska... a record that includes the precise second of the breakup going back to the 1920s.

But that didn't fit the pattern so it wasn't talked about outside of the "deniersphere".  When confronted with it directly, alarmists will do a lot of arm waving "it's all part of 'the new normal' and we're to blame!"

I've heard this before.  Remember polar bears were doomed?  Well, polar bear populations are on the rise.  It seems the lack of summer ice has led to an explosion of the ringed seal population... which the polar bears gorge themselves on during the March-May period... a period where there is plenty of ice to walk around on.  Later on, as the ice melts, the seals escape to open water where they are safe until freeze up again.  March-May ice coverage is not expected to decline very much.. even under the worst scenarios.

And, you guessed it... polar bear numbers crashed during times of higher ice coverage.. namely the early-mid 1970s and mid 1980s.  Ringed seal numbers decline dramatically when the ice doesn't melt... which is why the areas in the Arctic with the most consistent ice... the northern side of the Canadian Archipelago and Greenland where ice breaks into big chunks and piles up into slabs 50 feet thick... there are very few ringed seals and thus few polar bears.  While more sea ice benefits the bears in a longer hunting season.. it so negatively affects the prey that ultimately what is good for the goose is bad for the gander which then is bad for the goose.

Also.. remember how desertification is gonna ruin us all?  Actually, the planet has greened dramatically in the past 30 years as higher levels of CO2 have allowed plants to produce more food with less water.  Many of our own crops have benefited handsomely from higher CO2 concentrations... and it is very possible that if we had not increased CO2 levels like we have... that we would struggle much more to feed the 7 billion humans alive today as drought stress would eat into yields much more easily.

How about sea level rise?  Claims of 70 feet already being locked in by 2100... sinking Miami, NYC, and much of the Netherlands under the sea... are nothing but wild alarmist claims that will never come true.

In fact, the ocean at the moment is rising at a decidedly more modest 6-8 inches per century and shows no sign of an acceleration.. but actually a deceleration.  Sea level increases are decreasing in size!

The same goes for atmospheric CO2 concentration.  Despite by far record emissions of CO2 by humans since 2000.. the rate at which the concentration of CO2 is going up has decreased!  It seems the lack of warming on the globe has increased the ocean's uptake of CO2, which means despite increasing human emissions, the oceans have made up for that increase simply by not warming.

Drop your alarm.  The end is far from nigh.

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snowguy716
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« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2013, 01:14:03 AM »
« Edited: July 09, 2013, 01:37:12 AM by Snowguy716 »

http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2013/07/08/global_warming_wall_street_journal_article_cites_bad_evidence_draws_wrong.html

This is the rebuttal to the article I posted above.

Pay attention to the way the author frames the discussion.  It begins to sound more like religion complete with dogma, faith, and heathens (deniers and what denialists want.. which is to sow doubt of course.  To sow doubt in your faith.)

You should also pay attention to how the skeptic in the above post cites real scientists.  The rebuttal linked here cites a blog called "Skeptical Science" which has become somewhat famous in climate change alarmism circles for being awesome at pwning "deniers".

Joe Romm over at Climate Progress is another good alarmist read.

My point here is to point out how fracking ridiculous this has all gotten.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2013, 07:02:18 AM »

When you have convinced yourself that doomsday is approaching and that someone is responsible, the desire to destroy those responsible and anyone who gets in the way is understandable.

Re-evaluating and analyzing are just unnecessary delays at that point.

Of course, Snowguy, you must be willing to concede by now what the root of this "dogmatic" approach to climate science is.
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snowguy716
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« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2013, 08:50:27 PM »

 http://www.nature.com/news/climate-change-the-forecast-for-2018-is-cloudy-with-record-heat-1.13344

A forecast was made in 2007 for the next 10 years that said that there would be a brief continued stall in warming and then a strong warming, sending us to new records.

It's mid 2013 and the earth has actually cooled since then.

Some of the main takeaways from the article:

“It’s fair to say that the real world warmed even less than our forecast suggested,” [modeller] Smith says. “We don’t really understand at the moment why that is.”

“Because the climate does not usually change drastically from one year to the next, the model is bound to start off predicting conditions that are close to reality. But that effect quickly wears off as the real climate evolves. If this is the source of the models’ accuracy, that advantage fades quickly after a few years.”

“Kevin Trenberth, a climate scientist at the National Center for Atmospheric Research in Boulder, Colorado, says that it could be a decade or more before this research really begins to pay off in terms of predictive power, and even then climate scientists will be limited in what they can say about the future.”


The models that are touted to give us "accurate" forecasts 100 years into the future... the models that predict catastrophic global warming... cannot predict accurately climate on a 10 year scale.


But the reason the models are failing is clear:

1)  They assume CO2 is the main driver of climate change.  That's obviously not true as the world has stopped warming for 15 years and we emitted more CO2 in that time period than any other 15 year period by a long shot.

2)  They assume that water vapor has only a positive correlation with CO2.  This also is not true.  Atmospheric water vapor began to decline at the same time that the globe stopped warming... and yet CO2 continued its steady rise.

3)  They assume that water vapor only has a positive feedback on the climate system.  Recent research (as in, research done in the past 20 years since this assumption was made permanent in our climate models) has indicated that cloud cover is one of the biggest negative feedbacks in the climate system, reflecting solar energy back into space before it can reach the ground.

It was mentioned that the models have not failed.  This is true.  The models are doing PRECISELY what we tell them to do.  We insert parameters, tell it CO2 doubling warms the atmosphere so much.. and let it run.  It invariably gives us a temperature that correlates perfectly with CO2 concentration.  The real world has not shown this.

So the mdoels aren't wrong.. the scientists programming them are wrong.  And now they're grasping at straws.  Apparently China's coal burning is causing the planet not to warm (at least according to Jim hansen who provides no evidence since the theory should be taken at face value since he's such a good, prominent climate scientist).  And if that's not it.. well, then the heat is sinking undetected to the bottom of the ocean, where it is hiding (we can't find it... hence the skeptic jokes about Kevin Trenberth's missing heat... oh CO2 warming continues unabated... it's just hiding at the bottom of the ocean now!)

Keep believing.  Keep your faith.  Buy your organic tomatoes and "green" window cleaner.  I'm sure that'll save us all.
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Frodo
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« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2014, 12:31:08 PM »

So why is the Earth still 2 to 3 degrees cooler than it was three million years ago despite having equivalent levels of CO2?  Changes in oceanic circulation is a big reason why:

Past Climate Change Was Caused by the Ocean, Not Just the Atmosphere, New Rutgers Study Finds

Thursday, October 23, 2014

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snowguy716
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« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2014, 01:03:28 AM »

It is a well known theory that the closure of the isthmus of Panama right around this time drastically altered ocean currents.

It is thought that the warm currents were deflected northward which increased wintry precipitation in the north, which led to ice cap formation, thus cooling the climate via albedo increases.
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Boston Bread
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« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2014, 09:13:17 AM »
« Edited: October 27, 2014, 09:15:57 AM by New Canadaland »

I don't have the time or expertise to address every point here. But scientists will retract their previous findings on climate if they find evidence against the existence of anthroprogenic climate change. It's just that they haven't. No reason to believe in some international conspiracy.  Not all their predictions are true (ex. polar bears) but this isn't evidence against climate change per se. It's hard to model these types of things. But with physical changes being measured around the globe, and average global temperature still decisively above 1970-1980, these handful of misses are not a sign that warming has ended or whatever. Ocean patterns and sunspots cause periodic changes that are at moments stronger than a few year's change in CO2 levels.
Also, as someone who has read articles by climatologists, a lot of your claims of what they believe are downright false. No one claims sea levels will rise 70ft by 2100. Predictions are more like 3ft. It's low because land ice melt takes so long. 70ft is if temperatures rise 3C and stay that way for centuries. You say the current rate is 6 to 8 inches per century? True, but obviously if temperatures rise, land ice will become the largest source of sea level rise instead of thermal expansion and the rate will go up significantly.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn22561-projections-of-sea-level-rise-are-vast-underestimates.html (by underestimate they mean ~60cm)
Likewise, climate science is not conclusive on the albedo effect of water vapour (clouds right?). No source I read ever claimed that it was settled that they had a positive feedback effect.
Whatever you believe, please don't misrepresent climate science and try to use less biased sources next time.
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