Your STV vote: Netherlands 2017

[DavidB.]

Does anyone know the positions of the Dutch Libertarian Party? Are they radical, considering that classical liberalism is already pretty well represented in Dutch politics?

I know a lot about this party. They have had a lot of infighting over the last couple years. Its 2012 incarnation (which received a disappointing 4,000 or so votes), for which I voted last time around, was very much a "big tent" party, with the idea to unite libertarians of all stripes in order to change things. Note that libertarians in the Netherlands, for obvious reasons, are more likely to be real minarchists or ancaps than just "lol weed" people. Afterwards the "cultural right" took over. However, due to both evolution in the discourse (and people's political positions) and the Trump revolution a lot of these people became alt-righters rather than real libertarians. Meanwhile, nothing really happened in the party, which had lost a lot of its active members (and we're talking about a very small number of people here in the first place: not hard to become an LP board member...). Nowadays the party has been taken over by the "cultural left" / anti-nationalists, who want to leave the EU and NATO but also support open borders, immigration, globalization etc. A poll in a closed Facebook group indicated that most libertarians are actually going to vote for the Forum voor Democratie rather than for the LP this time around, which will certainly partly be due to the fact that the party has shifted to embracing multiculturalism and extreme anti-militarism (most of today's active members used to be left-wingers before joining the LP), and I fully expect them to receive fewer votes than in 2012. This entire saga has really convinced me that left-libertarians and right-libertarians may hold almost the exact same views, but that they still may not find that much common ground.

[DavidB.]

Curious what you think of my choices.
[6] 50Plus
[8] CDA
[2] ChristenUnie
[9] D66
[15] DENK
[11] Forum for Democracy
[3] GroenLinks
[5] Pirate Party
[7] PvdA
[4] PvdD
[13] PVV
[14] SGP
[1] SP
[12] VoorNederland
[10] VVD

They broadly make sense to me, logically. Not sure about GroenLinks over PvdD (but could be), also not sure how you can have the SGP this low while having CU that high, but it's possible if their views on women are truly a dealbreaker to you. Oh, and having 50Plus that high doesn't really make sense. They are not "left wing" and at least you'd prefer to vote PvdA and CDA over them.

[Intell]

[1] SP
[2] Pirate Party
[3] PvdA
[4] D66
[5] PvdD
[6] 50Plus
[7] GroenLinks
[8] CDA
[9] ChristenUnie
[10] VVD
[11] DENK
[12] Forum for Democracy
[13] PVV
[14] VoorNederland
[15] SGP

You would never vote D66 (who will cut back on healthcare more than the VVD, want a much more flexible labor market and are pro-TTIP) over PvdD, who are left-wing anti-globalists and basically vote along with the SP on anything.

Apart from that, do my choices make sense?

I didn't pick PvdD, as they were a party that only cared about animals rights, and a single issue party, and parties like that, I very much dislike. I'll probably continue my preference like that.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

1) GroenLinks
2) PvdA
3) PvdD
4) Pirate Party
5) D66

[SATW]

1. PVV
2. FvD
3. VNL
4. VVD
5. CDA
6. CU
7. SGP
8. 50Plus
9. LP
10. PvdA
11. D66
12. PvdD   
13. Pirate Party
14. GL
15. SP
16. DENK

[Goldwater]

[7] 50Plus
[4] CDA
[12] ChristenUnie
[3] D66
[8] DENK
[14] Forum for Democracy
[10] GroenLinks
[2] Pirate Party
[6] PvdA
[11] PvdD
[15] PVV
[13] SGP
[9] SP
[5] VoorNederland
[1] VVD

Thoughts, David?

[DavidB.]

Well, the point is that many of you guys' votes are just very idiosyncratic. They may represent your opinions quite accurately, and I think many of you have understood what these parties broadly stand for, but an actual Dutch VVD voter who is also fine with CDA would almost never prefer to vote for the SP over the SGP (though GL and perhaps the PvdA over the SGP are more believable). Most people's preferences broadly follow a certain pattern where left-wing parties are preferenced first and right-wing parties afterwards, or the other way around.

Having VNL at 5 and FvD at 14 seems strange to me: these parties have highly similar views, the only difference is their focus and their leadership. I do think VNL's focus may suit your views more, but you'd probably still support FvD over many other parties. And you'd almost certainly prefer any party over DENK (unless you somehow happen to be Turkish and an Erdogan supporter), with the possible exception of the PVV.

[Goldwater]

Well, the point is that many of you guys' votes are just very idiosyncratic. They may represent your opinions quite accurately, and I think many of you have understood what these parties broadly stand for, but an actual Dutch VVD voter who is also fine with CDA would almost never prefer to vote for the SP over the SGP (though GL and perhaps the PvdA over the SGP are more believable). Most people's preferences broadly follow a certain pattern where left-wing parties are preferenced first and right-wing parties afterwards, or the other way around.

Having VNL at 5 and FvD at 14 seems strange to me: these parties have highly similar views, the only difference is their focus and their leadership. I do think VNL's focus may suit your views more, but you'd probably still support FvD over many other parties. And you'd almost certainly prefer any party over DENK (unless you somehow happen to be Turkish and an Erdogan supporter), with the possible exception of the PVV.

Honestly, I don't know much about many of these parties, so that's why I was curious about your input.

With CDA and SGP, the former seemed kind of "moderate hero" ish while the latter seemed borderline theocratic, though maybe I'm misinterpreting things so maybe CDA should be lower and/or SGP should be higher. As for FvD, I don't know much abou themt so I thought it was safer to assume that they were more like PPV than VNL, better to put them too low than too high was my thought process. And finally, I didn't really understand what they actually were, so I just kind of lumped in the middle with the other leftist parties.

In any case, I realize my views and voting habits will be idiosyncratic pretty much anywhere, I just want to make sure I'm accurate with my idiosyncrasies.

[DavidB.]

Oh, I was not only talking about you, by the way. You're right: the CDA are barely still willing to say they are Christians whereas SGP still officially aim to make the Netherlands a theocracy. The CDA are a catch-all party (secular people also vote for them) and they are very close to the VVD nowadays, the main difference is focus (family values, respect etc.). They are easily each others' most preferred coalition partner. SGP are "borderline theocratic" but that will never happen since most people would never vote for them and their base is small, and they are a constructive right-wing partner to any government. They are also staunchly atlanticist and pro-defense. They will never be able to abolish any of the progressive legislation that has been passed over the last decades.

I'd say VNL are more similar to the PVV than FvD, though both share some important similarities (EU, immigration) and have their differences (tone, style, focus, electorate, economic views).

[Kingpoleon]

[] 50Plus
[4] CDA
[7] ChristenUnie
[1] D66
[] DENK
[] Forum for Democracy
[2] GroenLinks
[6] Pirate Party
[5] PvdA
[] PvdD
[] PVV
[] SGP
[] SP
[] VoorNederland
[3] VVD

DavidB., what would you say about mine?

[Vosem]

1.   Ancilla <3
2.   VVD
3.   SGP
4.   D66
5.   CDA
6.   PvdA
7.   GroenLinks
8.   ChristenUnie
9.   PvdD
10.   PVV
11.   50Plus
12.   Forum for Democracy
13.   VNL
14.   SP
15.   DENK

Why CU and VNL so low? Seems to me you'd definitely prefer CU over GL, and VNL's economic views fit yours to a T, which would probably be a pretty important point for you if you lived here, since taxes are very high here.

CU seems like a moderately economically-left and socially-right on a religious standpoint party: basically the opposite of what I'd like to see. As for GL, while the party as a whole has many positions I disagree with, I do in principle think that environmental conservation is an important issue and would normally be willing, in most countries, to preference a green party over a "standard" left-wing party, though I ranked PvdA higher since they seem unsure whether they want to stay the course or transition to being the Netherlands' third liberal party, after VVD and D66. Green politics has basically the same issue as pirate politics for me, in that while I basically agree with the main issue they're concerned with, the random far-left detritus that green parties tend to attract turns me off.

I ranked VNL low since I was under the impression they were led by a total buffoon in Jan Roos and I thought they were basically struggling to enter as a far-right competitor to PVV, not much different from Baudet's outfit, though scrolling through their Wikipedia page and taking a quick look at their tax policy, maybe they indeed should be higher -- between GL and CU seems logical. Hard to say, really.

[DC Al Fine]

[] 50Plus
[3] CDA
[2] ChristenUnie
[] D66
[] DENK
[] Forum for Democracy
[] GroenLinks
[] Pirate Party
[] PvdA
[] PvdD
[] PVV
[2] SGP
[] SP
[5] VoorNederland
[4] VVD

Which one first, which one second?

That was an accident but it's oddly fitting. I'd be a CU-SGP swing voter over in the Netherlands. I guess I'd preference SGP first, then Christen Unie.

[mvd10]

1. VVD
2. VNL
3. SGP
4. FvD
5. CDA
6. D66
7. CU
8. PvdA
9. GroenLinks
10. PVV
11. SP
12. PvdD
13. 50PLUS
14. DENK

VVD is by far the #1 choice. I might vote VNL or SGP in European elections (VVD sits in the ALDE group with Verhofstadt as their leader) or if the VVD leader is a social liberal like Dijkstal or Hennis-Plasschaert. I wouldn't even consider the other parties, CDA might have been higher with another leader though.

[YL]

Something like:

1. GL
2. PvdA
3. D66
4. SP
5. PvdD
6. Pirates
7. CU
8. CDA
9. VVD
------- probably not bothering beyond here, but
10. SGP
11. DENK
12. 50Plus
13. VNL
14. FvD
15. PVV

[Grand Wizard Lizard of the Klan]

[1] ChristenUnie

[2] SGP
[3] CDA
[4] SP

Would not vote:

[5] PvdA
[6] 50Plus
[7] GroenLinks
[8] PvdD
[9] VoorNederland
[10] Forum for Democracy
[11] PVV
[12] VVD
[13] D66
[14] DENK



[15] Pirate Party



I am only 100% sure about CU, SGP and SP as I devoted some time to read their platforms, reading some articles translated by Google Translate, some debates, posts of our Dutch users etc. I somehow in my judgments combine two approaches: how I would vote as a Dutch and how I would vote as myself so probably for David some of my choices will be not really logical.


    

[America Needs R'hllor]

[1] D66
[2] GroenLinks
[3] PvdA
[4] CDA
[5] VVD

Would not vote:

[6] 50Plus
[7] Pirate Party
[8] VoorNederland
[9] ChristenUnie
[10] PvdD
[11] Forum for Democracy
[12] SP
[13] DENK
[14] SGP
[15] PVV