Santorum is a lunatic, Part 10,568

[Wisconsin+17]

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So you believe that forcing everyone to pay for contraception is helping people pay their own bills? Rubbish. Let people make their own decisions - not the state, and you'll see that they will be better off than if you force them to pay the state to make decisions contrary to the well being of the people.

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Actually, we're saving tens of millions of American women money. You realize that there are plenty of American women who do not want/use/need contraception?

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Why don't we pay for boob jobs, nose jobs too? That's prohibitively expensive elective medicine that would benefit millions of American women.

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Well duh. If you work for the Catholic church - shouldn't you expect to follow what the Catholic church teaches?

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And what is that total compared to the total number of women? 10 percent? 20 percent? Do you believe it's right to raid their pocketbooks in order to help the others for elective medicine?

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Didn't 50+ percent of Catholics vote Democrat last election? Remind me, how many elections have the Democrats won when they failed to win a majority of Catholics.

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Sure, not paying for contraception is a winning issue. You want contraception - you pay for it. Oh, and btw - all you democrat men - why is your woman having to pay for her contraception? Shouldn't you be paying for it so that she doesn't have to rely on the state? Or are we paying for her contraception because you can't be bothered to look after her?

[Politico]

I retract the communist sensibilities comment, and apologize if it offended anybody. But, to me, agreeing that the government should force a religious institution to render a service that is incompatible with their religious beliefs strikes me as pretty damn communist. It's like something straight out of the Soviet Union. I would not expect this in America. The Supreme Court will definitely strike it down, but it is still scary what some  people are trying to push through drip by drip. Eventually the bucket overflows....

And I am not religious, let alone Catholic...

[Free Palestine]

I retract the communist sensibilities comment, and apologize if it offended anybody. But, to me, agreeing that the government should force a religious institution to render a service that is incompatible with their religious beliefs strikes me as pretty damn communist. It's like something straight out of the Soviet Union. I would not expect this in America.

That's not what communism is.

[Lief 🗽]

The hilarious thing about this right-wing faux indignation is that under the Bush administration this was already policy; the only change is that Obama is mandating that health plans fully cover contraception, instead of only partially covering it. And yet despite controlling the Congress and presidency, nothing was never done about it!

And let's not forget that this is already the law in the great state of Massachusetts, and in the four years that Politico's savior was governor (and in the healthcare bill that he signed into law) nothing was done to overturn this "communist" and "authoritarian" and "anti-freedom of religion" policy.

[Wisconsin+17]

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Just preaching to non-Catholics would deprive them of the 'exemption'. Obama has already said that the Church has a year to comply. The Church has replied saying that they will not comply with the unconstitutional mandate. That means we can tell Obama to stick it where the sun don't shine.

He wants to bring the brownshirts down to close everything 'Catholic', he's welcome to try.

[Politico]

I retract the communist sensibilities comment, and apologize if it offended anybody. But, to me, agreeing that the government should force a religious institution to render a service that is incompatible with their religious beliefs strikes me as pretty damn communist. It's like something straight out of the Soviet Union. I would not expect this in America.

That's not what communism is.

Thinking the government can force a religious institution to render a service that is incompatible with their religious beliefs is certainly not compatible with the Constitution. It is perfectly compatible with communism, however, in the sense that part of communism is control over social activity by a totalitarian state.

[Sbane]

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Obama.

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It's not just hospital workers. It applies to everyone without exception.

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So you're best reply is a Hobbesian choice? No, this only works if you believe that contraception reduces the incidence of abortion AND if you believe that the ends justify the means. First, your premise is flawed, secondly, even if contraception reduced abortion, it still wouldn't be justified.

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Nobody is pro choice out of pragmatism. If that were so you wouldn't have to force people to cover abortion and contraception. People are pro choice out of idealism - the desire to shape the world to fit themselves.

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So it's ok to demolish a building when you don't know if there's someone inside? That's not very good logic.

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So if I were to walk up, mug you, kill you, strip your body and sell the organs to save the lives of 5 others - that's no different then if you died from a heart attack?

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Ah, so because it's a losing proposition means that they shouldn't fight it. Rubbish. The constitution guarantees freedom of religion, and protects the rights of Catholics to not pay for contraception.

If Obama wants to ram it through- the constitution also guarantees the right of the people to expel and remove officials who have exceeded their constitutional authority.

First of all, unless you own a business and offer employees health insurance, you don't pay for sh**t.

The requirement does not extend to church employees, but institutions run by the church like Universities and Hospitals are covered by the requirement.

Contraception does prevent abortions since many of those people would choose to have an abortion if they got impregnated due to lack of contraception. And if abortion was illegal, they would go the illegal route which not only ends the life of the fetus but in many cases the life of the mother and in even more cases leaves her infertile and incapable of having children in the future. So yes, you can be pragmatically pro-choice. Don't know if that is the best way to describe it, but that's my stand on the issue.

Oh and Plan B does not kill embryos. Preventing implantation (which has not even been proven yet but that doesn't matter for your absolutist brain of course) is not the same as killing an embryo. Much, much better than killing the fetus after the nervous tissue has started developing.

[Free Palestine]

I retract the communist sensibilities comment, and apologize if it offended anybody. But, to me, agreeing that the government should force a religious institution to render a service that is incompatible with their religious beliefs strikes me as pretty damn communist. It's like something straight out of the Soviet Union. I would not expect this in America.

That's not what communism is.

Thinking the government can force a religious institution to render a service that is incompatible with their religious beliefs is certainly not compatible with the Constitution. It is perfectly compatible with communism, though.

Lolno

[Wisconsin+17]

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Then provide proof of such. The indignation is neither faux, nor right wing either. Plenty of Dims, including Sen. Casey have petitioned Obama to rescind the executive order.

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Yeah, and MA isn't TX. If MA wants to embrace Romney and communism, they will bear the consequences.

[Free Palestine]

Sure, communism is anti-clerical, but in communism there's no government.  You're thinking of authoritarian socialism.

[Lief 🗽]

Politico, will you still support Mitt Romney despite his support of communism during his time as Massachusetts governor?

[Politico]

The hilarious thing about this right-wing faux indignation is that under the Bush administration this was already policy; the only change is that Obama is mandating that health plans fully cover contraception, instead of only partially covering it. And yet despite controlling the Congress and presidency, nothing was never done about it!

And let's not forget that this is already the law in the great state of Massachusetts, and in the four years that Politico's savior was governor (and in the healthcare bill that he signed into law) nothing was done to overturn this "communist" and "authoritarian" and "anti-freedom of religion" policy.

Religious institutions in Massachusetts have not been forced to provide contraceptives for the express purpose of contraception nor have they been forced to provide abortions on demand. May I suggest dropping the F in your username?

[Starbucks Union Thug HokeyPuck]

I don't believe it's necessary for my state to expand a highway... am I therefore exempt from paying my taxes?

If you don't want to live in our society... go hop on a frickin boat and the entire Religious Right can find an island and live in Jesusland for the rest of their god damn lives.  Healthcare plans are there to cover medical needs... contraception being one of them.  

I can't believe the real meat of what Santorum was saying seems to have escaped the discussion.  It's the old standby from the conservative right... that totalitarian, authoritarianism, fascism, etc. etc.... are what you get when you apply secularism to society.   Well listen here morons, just because your empty, ignorant mind needs stupid fairy tales to teach you right from wrong doesn't mean the rest of us can't try to build a society where we do good things for each other for the sole sake of, oh I don't know, actually doing good things for people.  

Sorry if this comes off as a general rant against religion and it's followers, but I have a hard time keeping in my hostility in check when it comes to little weasels like Frothy.

[All Along The Watchtower]

I don't believe it's necessary for my state to expand a highway... am I therefore exempt from paying my taxes?

If you don't want to live in our society... go hop on a frickin boat and the entire Religious Right can find an island and live in Jesusland for the rest of their god damn lives.  Healthcare plans are there to cover medical needs... contraception being one of them.  

I can't believe the real meat of what Santorum was saying seems to have escaped the discussion.  It's the old standby from the conservative right... that totalitarian, authoritarianism, fascism, etc. etc.... are what you get when you apply secularism to society.   Well listen here morons, just because your empty, ignorant mind needs stupid fairy tales to teach you right from wrong doesn't mean the rest of us can't try to build a society where we do good things for each other for the sole sake of, oh I don't know, actually doing good things for people.  

Sorry if this comes off as a general rant against religion and it's followers, but I have a hard time keeping in my hostility in check when it comes to little weasels like Frothy.

Great post.

[Politico]

How is a prescription a medical need if it is only used for contraception? Furthermore, the most effective contraception, and the ONLY one that helps prevent the spread of HIV/AIDS, is readily available without a prescription in any local 7/11 for a cheap price. As they say down South, that dog don't hunt. As Romney would say, who let the dogs out?

The government is not supposed to meddle in economic activity and social activity to the degree it has under the Obama Administration. Enough is enough.

[Wisconsin+17]

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It's not single payer, sir. It's an individual mandate. Everyone is required to pay for contraception.

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It covers any and all church employees who are involved in these institutions. There, again are nuns that are falling under the mandate. There is significant overlap between those employed by the Church and by these institutions. Not to mention the fact that the law is outright unconstitutional in restricting religious freedoms guaranteed by the constitution.

The Church has already said that we are not going to comply.

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Again, not so. Contraceptive use has increased the abortion rate. Abortions today are far higher than they were in the past. Contraception is not perfect, and when contraception fails, couples are far more likely to undertake Abortion.

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The rate today is 10x what it was. Dr. Nathanson himself has testified before congress that doctors prior to legalization performed illegal abortions much the same as they do now. What has changed is that there is significant government support for abortion and the entire industry and legalization has opened the floodgates.

As for complications - do you really want to enter this debate? There are plenty of complications arising from legal clinics which in most states are not required to undertake inspections commenserate with their status as surgical clinics.

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Then why are you forcing people who disagree with you to fund things that you believe in? Isn't that contrary to pragmatism? It squares up straight with idealism.

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It kills unborn children.

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Just like killing an infant is not the same as killing an adolescent.

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So when does life begin? Where is this bright line between ok and not ok to kill?

[Sbane]

Trying to make a big deal about contraception use is the dog that don't hunt.

[All Along The Watchtower]

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It's not single payer, sir. It's an individual mandate. Everyone is required to pay for contraception.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

It covers any and all church employees who are involved in these institutions. There, again are nuns that are falling under the mandate. There is significant overlap between those employed by the Church and by these institutions. Not to mention the fact that the law is outright unconstitutional in restricting religious freedoms guaranteed by the constitution.

The Church has already said that we are not going to comply.

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Again, not so. Contraceptive use has increased the abortion rate. Abortions today are far higher than they were in the past. Contraception is not perfect, and when contraception fails, couples are far more likely to undertake Abortion.

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The rate today is 10x what it was. Dr. Nathanson himself has testified before congress that doctors prior to legalization performed illegal abortions much the same as they do now. What has changed is that there is significant government support for abortion and the entire industry and legalization has opened the floodgates.

As for complications - do you really want to enter this debate? There are plenty of complications arising from legal clinics which in most states are not required to undertake inspections commenserate with their status as surgical clinics.

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Then why are you forcing people who disagree with you to fund things that you believe in? Isn't that contrary to pragmatism? It squares up straight with idealism.

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It kills unborn children.

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Just like killing an infant is not the same as killing an adolescent.

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So when does life begin? Where is this bright line between ok and not ok to kill?

Contraception does NOT increase the rate of abortion. I don't know where you get that idea.

Oh wait, I do know.

[Lief 🗽]

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http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/02/dems-slam-romney-for-inconsistencies-on-birth-control-issue.php

[Wisconsin+17]

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So what you are saying is that devout Catholics have no place in American society? If you want to throw out the constitution -  be my guest. But don't be surprised when the United States don't follow along with you.

You want a society where everyone pays for contraception, and for health care - it's called Canada. I hear they are taking applications...

[Wisconsin+17]

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Yes, it does. The abortion rate now is 10x what it was in the 60s. Contraception is more common now than before.

If contraception was actually preventing abortion - we would expect to see the opposite. Like I said - contraceptives fail. When they fail, people are more likely to have an abortion. People are also more likely to engage in risky behaviour when they think there are fewer consequences. Abortion is the safety net of contraception.

[Sbane]

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It's not single payer, sir. It's an individual mandate. Everyone is required to pay for contraception.

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It covers any and all church employees who are involved in these institutions. There, again are nuns that are falling under the mandate. There is significant overlap between those employed by the Church and by these institutions. Not to mention the fact that the law is outright unconstitutional in restricting religious freedoms guaranteed by the constitution.

The Church has already said that we are not going to comply.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Again, not so. Contraceptive use has increased the abortion rate. Abortions today are far higher than they were in the past. Contraception is not perfect, and when contraception fails, couples are far more likely to undertake Abortion.

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The rate today is 10x what it was. Dr. Nathanson himself has testified before congress that doctors prior to legalization performed illegal abortions much the same as they do now. What has changed is that there is significant government support for abortion and the entire industry and legalization has opened the floodgates.

As for complications - do you really want to enter this debate? There are plenty of complications arising from legal clinics which in most states are not required to undertake inspections commenserate with their status as surgical clinics.

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Then why are you forcing people who disagree with you to fund things that you believe in? Isn't that contrary to pragmatism? It squares up straight with idealism.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

It kills unborn children.

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Just like killing an infant is not the same as killing an adolescent.

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So when does life begin? Where is this bright line between ok and not ok to kill?

You see I don't have a bright line. Abortion is a very yucky issue with no bright lines for me. In the end abortions will always continue to happen. We can either provide a safe environment for them or have them be performed in a back alley somewhere. Abortions are one of the safest procedures when performed in a proper setting, but complications can arise like in any medical procedure. I would prefer abortions be done as early as possible. And preventing implantation would be even better. And even better than that would be TO PREVENT OVULATION WHICH IS WHAT PLAN B DOES ACCORDING TO MEDICAL LITERATURE. ANY ADDITIONAL EFFECTS ARE UNKNOWN BUT MAY INCLUDE PREVENTING IMPLANTATION. And preventing implantation ain't killing something. It's not comparable to real abortions, but perhaps you aren't aware of what real abortions entail. And you think contraception leads to more abortions? LOL is the only response worthy of that statement.

This is a complicated world, my friend. Get used to the gray.

[Free Palestine]

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Yes, it does. The abortion rate now is 10x what it was in the 60s. Contraception is more common now than before.

If contraception was actually preventing abortion - we would expect to see the opposite. Like I said - contraceptives fail. When they fail, people are more likely to have an abortion. People are also more likely to engage in risky behaviour when they think there are fewer consequences. Abortion is the safety net of contraception.

I think there are plenty of other reasons why the abortion rate has went up in the past fifty years.

And anyways, who the fock cares?  I don't.

[Mechaman]

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Yes, it does. The abortion rate now is 10x what it was in the 60s. Contraception is more common now than before.

If contraception was actually preventing abortion - we would expect to see the opposite. Like I said - contraceptives fail. When they fail, people are more likely to have an abortion. People are also more likely to engage in risky behaviour when they think there are fewer consequences. Abortion is the safety net of contraception.

I think there are plenty of other reasons why the abortion rate has went up in the past fifty years.

And anyways, who the fock cares?  I don't.

Yeah like Roe v. f***ing Wade which legalized on-demand abortions in 1973.

Thank you Captain Obvious!!!!

[Politico]

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http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/02/dems-slam-romney-for-inconsistencies-on-birth-control-issue.php

Again, perhaps you should consider dropping the F in your name if you are going to post such rubbish?

You guys will say anything to get Santorum now that you know Gingrich is not a possibility. It's not going to happen.

You can lie about Romney all you like, but he is going to defeat Obama. Get used to it.