European patriots meet in Koblenz

[Santander]

https://www.ft.com/content/d712b906-dff2-11e6-8405-9e5580d6e5fb

Marine Le Pen, Frauke Petry and Geert Wilders spoke on the same stage for the first time.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Those ain't "patriots".

But let's talk about how the AfD leadership tried to distance themselves from their chairwoman attending this meeting...

[DavidB.]

I liked Wilders' speech (in German):

https://youtu.be/VclCCUx3vP8

[parochial boy]

Let's be honest, the driving factor behind the right's hatred of the EU is so that they can "take back control", and then give it to corporations.

[Santander]

Let's be honest, the driving factor behind the right's hatred of the EU is so that they can "take back control", and then give it to corporations.

The EU is the pinnacle of corporatism.

[DavidB.]

Let's be honest, the driving factor behind the right's hatred of the EU is so that they can "take back control", and then give it to corporations.

If you really believe this that's pretty conspirational. You may say the views they have would inadvertently help big business etc. and screw over the poor, even if I'd disagree with that too, but the idea that their euroskepticism stems from the idea that the EU is an obstacle to corporations' profits is, err... pretty out there. Corporations are the biggest supporters of "globalism", mass immigration and European integration, the consequences be damned.

[Crumpets]

I can never understand why hard-core nationalists tend to get along better and strategize better than their liberal and social democratic counterparts. Shouldn't all these meetings break down into "we're awesome and you guys suck," the international motto of nationalist movements, immediately? It's almost as if the far-right is more concerned about race than being manipulated by foreign powers. I know, crazy talk.

[DavidB.]

I can never understand why hard-core nationalists tend to get along better and strategize better than their liberal and social democratic counterparts. Shouldn't all these meetings break down into "we're awesome and you guys suck," the international motto of nationalist movements, immediately? It's almost as if the far-right is more concerned about race than being manipulated by foreign powers. I know, crazy talk.

Why? Nationalism nowadays isn't about "we're better than you guys", it's about the sovereignty of nation states in times when "globalism" prevails. If Brexit happens, that makes the EU weaker and all nation states in the EU stronger. If Trump wins, that means the U.S. government won't push for more EU integration, mass immigration in the EU, and power to the UN. If Le Pen becomes the French president, that means other countries will be freer in saying "no" to EU demands on all sorts of issues. It makes sense for European nationalists to cooperate in order to make that happen. All this can pretty easily be explained on the basis of interests instead of "race".

[parochial boy]

Let's be honest, the driving factor behind the right's hatred of the EU is so that they can "take back control", and then give it to corporations.

If you really believe this that's pretty conspirational. You may say the views they have would inadvertently help big business etc. and screw over the poor, even if I'd disagree with that too, but the idea that their euroskepticism stems from the idea that the EU is an obstacle to corporations' profits is, err... pretty out there. Corporations are the biggest supporters of "globalism", mass immigration and European integration, the consequences be damned.

I was thinking along the lines of those members of the UK conservative party, whose brilliant post-Brexit plan is to turn the country into a tax haven.

Globalisation is happening whether people like it or not, as a result of technological development, and the only way to stop it turning into a massive handover of power to the private sector is to stop clinging on to the idea that democracy stops at your border.

[Crumpets]

I can never understand why hard-core nationalists tend to get along better and strategize better than their liberal and social democratic counterparts. Shouldn't all these meetings break down into "we're awesome and you guys suck," the international motto of nationalist movements, immediately? It's almost as if the far-right is more concerned about race than being manipulated by foreign powers. I know, crazy talk.

Why? Nationalism nowadays isn't about "we're better than you guys", it's about the sovereignty of nation states in times when "globalism" prevails. If Brexit happens, that makes the EU weaker and all nation states in the EU stronger. If Trump wins, that means the U.S. government won't push for more EU integration, mass immigration in the EU, and power to the UN. If Le Pen becomes the French president, that means other countries will be freer in saying "no" to EU demands on all sorts of issues. It makes sense for European nationalists to cooperate in order to make that happen. All this can pretty easily be explained on the basis of interests instead of "race".

Why would anybody argue sovereign power of a nation state is superior to EU-ism for any other reason than that they think their nation is "better" on average than it's counterparts?

[DavidB.]

I was thinking along the lines of those members of the UK conservative party, whose brilliant post-Brexit plan is to turn the country into a tax haven.

Pro-business Tories were remainers; Brexiteers in the Conservative Party didn't care. But in general I don't think the Conservatives are comparable to the ENF parties on this conference at all.

Why would anybody argue sovereign power of a nation state is superior to EU-ism for any other reason than that they think their nation is "better" on average than it's counterparts?

Because they (we) view the nation state as the most legitimate entity wielding power in the world. The world is divided into separate peoples/nations sharing a frame of reference, culture, values with each other. Of course one can be part of more than one nation or people, and the boundaries are blurry, and one can become part of a different nation if one complies with that nation's requirements, but in general the world can be seen as such. Nations should govern themselves, and power should reside with the people. The idea that the Dutch nation would be "better" than the German nation or the Slovenian nation seems ludicrous to me, but the idea that Germans or Slovenes should decide what happens in the Netherlands is equally wrong, which is why I oppose the EU in its current form.

[ag]

https://www.ft.com/content/d712b906-dff2-11e6-8405-9e5580d6e5fb

Marine Le Pen, Frauke Petry and Geert Wilders spoke on the same stage for the first time.

Title corrected.

[parochial boy]

I was thinking along the lines of those members of the UK conservative party, whose brilliant post-Brexit plan is to turn the country into a tax haven.

Pro-business Tories were remainers; Brexiteers in the Conservative Party didn't care. But in general I don't think the Conservatives are comparable to the ENF parties on this conference at all.

The libertarian wing of the Tories were very much pro-Brexit.

And it still remains the fact that any weakening of the EU would result in a major handover of power to big businesses.

[DavidB.]

And it still remains the fact that any weakening of the EU would result in a major handover of power to big businesses.

Regardless of whether that is a fact of not, that is not what you said earlier ("the driving factor behind the right's hatred of the EU is so that they can "take back control", and then give it to corporations"). That statement implies parties like FN, PVV and AfD primarily hate the EU because it impedes the power of corporations, which is just very far-fetched.

[parochial boy]

And it still remains the fact that any weakening of the EU would result in a major handover of power to big businesses.

Regardless of whether that is a fact of not, that is not what you said earlier ("the driving factor behind the right's hatred of the EU is so that they can "take back control", and then give it to corporations"). That statement implies parties like FN, PVV and AfD primarily hate the EU because it impedes the power of corporations, which is just very far-fetched.

It was hyperbole.

But there very definitely a current with in the Eurosceptic movement that dislikes the EU because it both has the ability and has in practice, impeded ultra-liberal economic policies.

The pre-Marine FN was very economically liberal; as is UKIP; as are the main anti-EU politicians in Switzerland; and the Dan Hannan/Douglas Carswell wing of the British right was opposed to the EU very much as a result of the fact it willing to intervene in the markets.

[DavidB.]

But there very definitely a current with in the Eurosceptic movement that dislikes the EU because it both has the ability and has in practice, impeded ultra-liberal economic policies.

The pre-Marine FN was very economically liberal; as is UKIP; as are the main anti-EU politicians in Switzerland; and the Dan Hannan/Douglas Carswell wing of the British right was opposed to the EU very much as a result of the fact it willing to intervene in the markets.

This is definitely true, but it doesn't apply to any of the parties in ENF.

[Sozialliberal]

I liked Wilders' speech (in German):

https://youtu.be/VclCCUx3vP8

I listened to the whole speech and didn't like it. I do agree with some points Wilders made, but overall too much generalization, too much exaggeration, too much polarization. Not the type of politician I'd vote for.

[Zioneer]

https://www.ft.com/content/d712b906-dff2-11e6-8405-9e5580d6e5fb

Marine Le Pen, Frauke Petry and Geert Wilders spoke on the same stage for the first time.

No no no no, you're confusing patriots with fascist scum again.

[ingemann]

I fail to see the patriotism in valueing Russian interest over ones own homeland.