Sarkozy = Idiot

[GMantis]

He wants to officially ban burqas now.

I don't like burqas either, Nick, but enough with this nonsense of burqas will "not be welcome" in your country because you're "Pro woman."

If you don't ban burqas, they will be imposed on Islamic women by their relatives and by community pressure. This greatly exacerbate the alienation and isolation of Muslims from the native population, contributing to the lack of integration and ethnic tensions. Muslims men often act abusive against non-muslim women because they're not covered. Would this happen to such extent if headscarves were banned.
This is a step in the right direction. In my opinion, Islamic clothing should be restricted in the West. If the Muslims don't like it, tough for them. It's not if most Islamic countries permit non-Muslims permit to dress like they want.

[GMantis]

If you don't ban burqas, they will be imposed on Islamic women by their relatives and by community pressure. This greatly exacerbate the alienation and isolation of Muslims from the native population, contributing to the lack of integration and ethnic tensions. Muslims men often act abusive against non-muslim women because they're not covered. Would this happen to such extent if headscarves were banned.

Again, what about women who really want to wear burqas?

With the typical structure of the Islamic family and with the isolation and strong group pressure in their communities, it's virtually impossible to tell them apart from those who have burqas forced upon them. So it's better to be on the safe side.

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Great reasoning.

 

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And that doesn't suddenly make this right.

I'm just saying that they have little grounds from complaining, considering the very limited rights minorities have in most of their home countries. Also if their clothing contributes to their isolation and to hostility with the majority, which has very negative social effects, the public good should take priority over the wishes of some Muslims to impose their way of life in another country.

[GMantis]

With the typical structure of the Islamic family and with the isolation and strong group pressure in their communities, it's virtually impossible to tell them apart from those who have burqas forced upon them. So it's better to be on the safe side.

The "safe side" just happens to be your personal opinion and that's not fair to any Muslim woman.

Are you denying the fact that many women are forced to wear burqas, sometimes even non-Muslims in predominantly Muslim areas?

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But I'm not talking about foreign governments; I'm talking about the Muslims in France rightfully complaining.

Actually, often the same governments that give little rights to minorities are the most vocal protesters and I would say that for those countries' citizens to protest is hypocritical.

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What?

So now we have to outlaw anything that adds to "hostility with the majority?" This cannot be serious.

I find this absolutely mind boggling that you, of all people, are now going to talk about "the public good" (which really isn't affected by burqa wearing) vs. minority interests. You are literally defending xenophobia in the law.

Imagine if I complained about a minority group "imposing their way of life" on people in my country! Imagine if I just complained about it and now compare it to someone like yourself who wants to outlaw their customs.

Have I ever defended the anti-social expressions of a minority? The wearing of burqas is antisocial and threatening to the public good. It places pressure on other women to wear burqas, increases disempowerment of the women who wear them, isolate Muslims from the wider community and generate tension and conflict.
There is a reasonable difference between a minority expressing a culture and a minority which seeks to dominate or at least strongly influence the dominant culture. The wearing of burqas in Western countries crosses that line, in my opinion.
By the way, Italy has actually banned the wearing of burqas, since 2005:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6557252.ece
Haven't seen you protesting that, though.

[GMantis]

Are you denying the fact that many women are forced to wear burqas, sometimes even non-Muslims in predominantly Muslim areas?

I'm not denying that but I don't think they should be outlawed when a good amount of Muslims want to wear them.

If a non-Muslim in France is being forced to wear one, they can request legal action.

Did you read the part about the Muslim family structure or the strong group pressure within their communities? I don't think that many would complain.

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So now anything you deem "anti-social" has to be outlawed? Uh...

I have another idea: let's ban "housewives."

What do housewives have to do with this?

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Wearing a burqa is strongly dominating? Wearing a burqa in a Western country "crosses that line" only because you say so.

Next time, don't complain when xenophobic nationalists from Western Europe want to write laws that keep out a bunch of poor, uneducated, dirty Eastern Europeans from entering their country. They're just prevent "strong influence" on their dominant culture, after all. 

With some exceptions, Eastern European immigrants to Western Europe seek to integrate into society and don't attempt to behave as if they're ruling the countriesthey're immigrating into. I would say they integrate too well, considering their rapid assimilation rate.
The problem with the Muslim immigrants is not that they're poor and uneducated, but their attitude that they're superior over non-Muslims (dhimmis) and that the latter should accommodate them. I'm not saying that all think like that, but a significant part does and the attitude of many European governments doesn't help.

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That's because I never knew about it. That's disgusting. I don't know why some people insist on throwing these types of situations in my face. You can call me a lot of things but I'm not a hypocrite. Do you really expect me to say that it's ok that Italy does this? I just never knew it happened.

Good for you, but here's another reason why burqas should be banned.

[GMantis]

First of all your correct observation that non muslims are made to wear burqas in places like Saudi Arabia is not relevant in the west. You seriously think some muslims, who are heavily in the minority, are going to force some westerner (frenchwoman in this case) to wear a burqa? Uhh....wow.

Also how is a burqa antisocial? I personally don't like them one bit, but if a woman wants to wear it she should be able to. If she is being forced to wear one she would have a right to complain and would be heard in the west.

There have been some cases, where non-women living in heavily Muslim areas to at least cover their heads to avoid constant abuse.

If you don't ban burqas, they will be imposed on Islamic women by their relatives and by community pressure. This greatly exacerbate the alienation and isolation of Muslims from the native population, contributing to the lack of integration and ethnic tensions. Muslims men often act abusive against non-muslim women because they're not covered. Would this happen to such extent if headscarves were banned.

Again, what about women who really want to wear burqas?

With the typical structure of the Islamic family and with the isolation and strong group pressure in their communities, it's virtually impossible to tell them apart from those who have burqas forced upon them. So it's better to be on the safe side.

I think I have a vague idea of where you're coming from, but understand that you're in Bulgaria.

I don't understand you. What do you mean by that?

[GMantis]

What do housewives have to do with this?

Let's ban subservience, right?

Being a housewive is being subservant? Didn't know you were a feminist, Phil.

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So they're not allowed to practice what they believe because of this alleged superiority? We have to straighten them out, right?

It's not a good idea for the minority to think that they can order around the majority. It inevitably leads to conflict and negative consequences for all involved. I would say that this is pretty obvious.

[GMantis]

Being a housewive is being subservant? Didn't know you were a feminist, Phil.

I'm not. I'm just using the same rhetoric that you're using.

It's absurd to compare this. Being a housewife doesn't hide you from the surrounding world.

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Who the hell is ordering around the majority? They're ordering around the majority by wanting to wear a burqa?

This is just part of the problem, which includes the insistence that employers should accommodate them in all possible ways, that they must not be "insulted" - this is taken to an absurd level, for example there have been calls to stop commemoration of the Holocaust as it supposedly denigrates Palestinians. The wearing of burqas (at least for security reasons) is incompatible with European norms, so permitting Muslims to wear them is already imposing their way on life on the majority.
This is a good example of what I'm talking about:
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=18940_Austrian_Muslims_Demand_All_Teachers_Wear_Hajib&only

[GMantis]

It's absurd to compare this. Being a housewife doesn't hide you from the surrounding world.

Whatever, dude.

[quote
This is just part of the problem, which includes the insistence that employers should accommodate them in all possible ways, that they must not be "insulted" - this is taken to an absurd level, for example there have been calls to stop commemoration of the Holocaust as it supposedly denigrates Palestinians. The wearing of burqas (at least for security reasons) is incompatible with European norms, so permitting Muslims to wear them is already imposing their way on life on the majority.
This is a good example of what I'm talking about:
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=18940_Austrian_Muslims_Demand_All_Teachers_Wear_Hajib&only

...

And this has nothing to do with burqas. This is a horrific slippery slope argument.
[/quote]
If Muslims believe that everything they demand for themselves will be granted - and the wearing of burqas is part of that - they'll soon start to demand changes in the life of the majority. I think it's quite logical. Would those extremists have made those demands if it was clear that Muslims couldn't do whatever they wanted (if for example, headscarves were banned in school, as they were in Turkey until not long ago).

[GMantis]

they'll soon start to demand changes in the life of the majority. I think it's quite logical. Would those extremists have made those demands if it was clear that Muslims couldn't do whatever they wanted (if for example, headscarves were banned in school, as they were in Turkey until not long ago).

No, it's not logical; it's a ridiculous slippery slope.

If society capitulates (as many Muslims see it) on Islamic clothing, then some Muslims (mainly extremist, but still) see it permissible to pressure society to accommodate other demands, and if these are accommodated, to press yet other demands. Remember, most of these Muslims come from countries where minorities have little rights and many think that because the host countries give them many rights, they are somehow in control. And after all, they have religious justification for this.

[GMantis]

they'll soon start to demand changes in the life of the majority. I think it's quite logical. Would those extremists have made those demands if it was clear that Muslims couldn't do whatever they wanted (if for example, headscarves were banned in school, as they were in Turkey until not long ago).

No, it's not logical; it's a ridiculous slippery slope.

If society capitulates (as many Muslims see it) on Islamic clothing, then some Muslims (mainly extremist, but still) see it permissible to pressure society to accommodate other demands, and if these are accommodated, to press yet other demands. Remember, most of these Muslims come from countries where minorities have little rights and many think that because the host countries give them many rights, they are somehow in control. And after all, they have religious justification for this.

And when Muslims wish to carry out Sharia Law and stuff like that, we can (and do) speak out against it. In the meantime, stop using the slippery slope argument for burqas. It's like me saying, "Well, we have to seal the borders because if we let too many Mexicans in, they'll force Spanish to become our official language."

I don't think those who have surrendered on so many issues regarding Muslims, would have much authority if they suddenly turned around out and opposed Sharia law and the like. After all, the same arguments can be used in this case, as in earlier cases: "It's just part of their religion and tradition!", "As hosts we must make immigrants feel welcome!" and so on.
And while all this is going on, all the negative drawbacks of burqas also go on: the isolation and alienation of Muslims, the security risks,  the forced wearing of burqas under pressure of their relatives, wider community and recently, Islamist groups.
I see that you believe strongly in the high minded position of absolute freedom, but absolute freedom is useless and even dangerous against those who have no respects for freedom and only wish to destory it.

[GMantis]

It matters not a jot to you or I or any non-Muslim (or male) what some Muslim women are pressured to wear. When the people it actually concerns speak out against it and the damage it does to their community then you know 'good for them, but..'

It does matter to me if women are pressured to wear it but you and others keep ignoring the fact that there are plenty of Muslim women that want to wear it. What do we say to them?

We ask them why. Why do they wish to wear a regional dress (the Afghan Burqua) that goes OTT on what 'modest' dress is supposed to be in Islam and why they feel they have to wear it. Which is exactly what the commission intends to do with the help of the Muslim community the majority of whom also want to see an end to a dress that is not just alien to France, but alien to the French Arab/African Muslim community too.

Why do they have to answer to a commission about what the hell they want to wear?

You know, preaching about "alien fashion" by an American to, say, a European in traditional folk dress (which tends to be very conservative) would be deemed very offensive and forcing them to wear American clothing would be fascist.

I just don't like the government requiring citizens to explain why they want to wear something that has no affect on the society whatsoever.

I've given quite a few reasons why burqas are dangerous to society, would you mind actually addressing some of these points, instead of taking a false position of highmindness?
It wouldn't hurt to tell what should be done about those women who are forced in various ways to wear burqas.

[GMantis]

I've given quite a few reasons why burqas are dangerous to society, would you mind actually addressing some of these points, instead of taking a false position of highmindness?

I don't think there's anything dangerous about a burqa aside from possibly concealing weapons. Your examples are just paranoia about Muslims forcing their traditions on others.

So it appears that you oppose integration of Muslims, as almost nothing says "Fuсk integration!" more than completely concealing women under a moveable tent.
And it's not paranoia. Did you actually read that article about the Austrian school?

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What can we do? Believe me, I'd love to act on that. I don't want anyone forced to wear something they don't want to wear. I just don't think banning them all is the right idea.

In fact, Sarkozy doesn't want them banned (I do, but the thread isn't about me). He just wants a frank discussion about their role in society - something you also oppose.

[GMantis]

If you don't ban burqas, they will be imposed on Islamic women by their relatives and by community pressure. This greatly exacerbate the alienation and isolation of Muslims from the native population, contributing to the lack of integration and ethnic tensions. Muslims men often act abusive against non-muslim women because they're not covered. Would this happen to such extent if headscarves were banned.

Again, what about women who really want to wear burqas?

With the typical structure of the Islamic family and with the isolation and strong group pressure in their communities, it's virtually impossible to tell them apart from those who have burqas forced upon them. So it's better to be on the safe side.

I think I have a vague idea of where you're coming from, but understand that you're in Bulgaria.

I don't understand you. What do you mean by that?

Turkey is more...threatening isn't quite the right word. Turks vote in a bloc for the Turkish party. It's not like that in most places.

Threatening is quite the right word, considering that Turkey supports this party in all possible ways and Turkish politicians occasionally speak about "lost territories".
But this is not really a religious question, as the Bulgarian Turks are generally better integrated and less religious than those in Western Europe. It's more of an ethnic question.
The situation in the West, where religion is the important element of identification for most Muslims, is quite different. The encouragement of fundamentalist Islam does nothing for the integration of Muslims or their relations with the host countries.

[GMantis]

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I don't think a "frank discussion" is needed to justify their role. They don't need to answer to the government for what they want to wear.

But he doesn't just want a "frank discussion." He said they are not welcome in France so spare me the nonsense.

This is his opinion, but he hasn't said that he wants them banned. As a significant proportion of the population does question their role, perhaps a frank discussion would be a good idea? Better than banning them outright, which many European countries have done?

[GMantis]

I'll take conversing over a flat out ban but I think choosing between the two is ridiculous. I don't think Muslim women should have to explain to the government why they want to wear something and then hope it's convincing enough for some politicians.

That's because you're blind to all the negative consequences and not really caring about those who are brainwashed or forced into wearing them

By the way, how can you say that a remark by a President like "they [burqas] will not be welcome in my France" is just an opinion?

He hasn't actually pushed for a legislation for the banning of Burqas. Of course his opinion carries weight, but he's not a dictator or with the powers of an American president, so his word isn't exactly binding.

[GMantis]

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Uh, what?

Dude, I clearly stated throughout this thread that there are negative consequences and that I'm personally not a fan. I also stated that I do care about those forced into wearing them. I just think your "solution" is absolutely, ridiculously unfair to the women that want to wear them but you are being blind to that.

I suppose that you also support those people who want to walk naked outside to do so. This fits your logic perfectly.

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But it's more than just an opinion to say that they're "not welcome" in his country. That sounds like a threat to me.

He said that wearing of burqas is not welcome. A small, but important difference.

[GMantis]

Personally, Islamic day wear is ok so long as it doesn't impede identification. If it leaves the woman's entire face and some of her hair exposed, then I don't care what else she wears. But I get the strong impression that Sarkozy's ban goes farther than this.

The whole point of a burqa is that it covers the face. Sarkozy is not calling for the ban of headscarves.