U.N. Passes Resolution Against Israel Settlements, U.S. Abstains

[DavidB.]

Next summer I'll be building houses in the newest, freshest outposts again anyway, probably with the support of the U.S. administration. Cry moar, Obama!

[DavidB.]

That's disgusting. The settlements are reprehensible.

Ordinary villages in which people build houses and live with their families are reprehensible, just because it's Jews living there? Antisemitism 101, and one day the world will understand the insane freakout over SETTLEMENTS is just that.

Or not. It's not as if I care much, because we will keep building until Mashiach comes anyway.

❤

❤ back!

[DavidB.]

They should be evacuated and bombed.

Ask weed man to do it. But only if you like a mushroom cloud in your backyard.

[DavidB.]

You're aware any threat to throw a nuclear bomb on the West will probably cause the extinction of the Jewish people? West would stop protecting you against Arabs and there would be en explosion in anti-semitic crimes.

You're aware that this is literally impossible? Learn some Torah, dude. That's not what the future's going to look like. Apart from that, Israel bombing Canada would be perfectly justified it Ottawa would decide to bomb the settlements. Not that le weed man would ever have the balls to do anything like that.

We all know than, internatonally, the best for Israel would be a sign a peace deal and then loudly complain about every violation by Palestinians until it fell down. Created a ton of goodwill towards them in the 90's.

Haha, yeah, because we got so much goodwill when we unilaterally withdrew from Gaza because of cucked politicians. Totally worth the rockets raining down on Southern Israel destroying these people's lives! And the First Intifada was also totally worth it, because the world absolutely loved us and wasn't that sweet?

You know when the Jewish people were most popular? When we got slaughtered. We're not popular if we defend ourselves. But we can deal with that.

[DavidB.]

The one who's really a "colonialist settler", as Ray Goldfield correctly alludes to, is Intell, who lives in a country that his ancestors did not have any connection to. Jews who return to Israel, by contrast, objectively have a connection to Israel that is thousands of years old.

Another reminder, by the way, that any tears in this thread shed over the existence and growth of the settlement enterprise taste delicious. I may bump this thread with a selfie from my favorite outpost next summer!

[DavidB.]

Lmao @ the lefties here devaluing the A-word more and more by the minute. It's almost as worthless as "racist" nowadays. No one cares anymore. Good job, thank you!

I don't have any problem with the US acting and voting in their own interests, just as every single other nation does.

No smart person ever expects the U.S. (or any country, for that matter) to act altruistically. The point is that Obama's foreign policy of screwing over the U.S.' allies and aiding its enemies is not really in the country's interest at all.

[DavidB.]

So, I have a question, and I don't want it to be a loaded question, even though it kind of is, so feel free to answer a more constructive question if you want:

What does Israel gain from building these settlements? Even if they have every legal right to do so, just as the "Ground Zero Mosque" people did, what is the motivation which makes those building the settlements say "yes, we get that it's unpopular with the local Palestinians and Muslims, and yes, it provokes the ire of many of our neighbors, but the reason we need to build these settlements here and now is __________"?

I think I may be among the best suited people on this forum to answer this question since, you know, I engage in building these places. For me and the people who think like I do the simple truth is that it is our G-d-given land. The Israeli military liberating these areas in the 1967 war is a clear sign that we have entered a different era in terms of both world history and Jewish history, and that we are moving toward the coming of Mashiach (though we're absolutely not there yet). The notion of Eretz Yisrael, the G-d-given land of Israel, is important here, since giving it away would at least implicitly go against the idea that we find ourselves in these times.

But there is more at play here than just this messianic idea. Of course, Judea, Samaria and the disputed parts of Jerusalem are the cradle of Jewish history in our own land, certainly much more so than, say, the Negev or the Galil in undisputed Israel. The disputed areas are where Jewish history was made. Hevron is one of our holy cities, and the Tomb of the Patriarchs is a holy site. Shiloh is our former capital and nowadays it is called an "illegal settlement." The Temple Mount and Western Wall are technically in "East Jerusalem". Many Israeli (and non-Israeli) Jews, also among those who are not settlers, think it is outright absurd and a travesty of justice for foreign countries to decide where Jews can and cannot live in our own ancestral homeland. This is also something people who are not necessarily religious can believe in.

The idea that foreign countries can decide where Jews can and cannot build, then, is also often believed to run against one of the more fundamental pillars of Zionism, namely that Jews are finally independent and don't have to rely on whether the world has a favorable or an unfavorable opinion of us. This, of course, makes the U.N. and international law in general spectacularly unpopular, especially so because the U.N. is -- rightly, in my opinion -- perceived to ignore real injustices in the world.

The idea that the settlements would be an obstacle to peace is something most right-wing Israelis (and Jews) don't believe in. Before 1967 there were no settlements, yet there was no peace either. For us, the truth is that our presence in the Land of Israel in general is unwanted by Palestinians, on both sides of the green line. Few Israelis would accept the idea of Jews not moving into Israel anymore, or not building houses in Tel Aviv anymore, even if Palestinians don't like it, so we say: what's the big deal about building in Maale Adumim or Amona? I believe peace can only come when we accept each other's presence in the land; as long as Jews building houses in historically Jewish land is viewed as ~problematic~, peace cannot be achieved anyway.

Then there is the reality that the two-state solution would actively kill off the settler segment of society, including its ideological influence not only over politics, but also over society, the Israeli right, and the direction in which country is moving. Obviously these people would remain right-wingers, but the messianic idea of living in J&S as pioneers who lead a movement that will eventually move society in a better direction (i.e. their direction) will die, and some left-wingers are quite honest about this being a major goal of theirs. The more settlements we build and the more settlers there are in J&S, the less likely a 2SS becomes (indeed, I think it is impossible already), and therefore the left's goal to kill off this movement and its ideology cannot be achieved anymore and settlers will continue to influence society and the Israeli right -- even more so as demographics will become more and more positive for the religious right.

Side question to David:
I know you're from the Netherlands, but did you or your family moved there from the USSR since the late 80's? Just a sociological interest in some trend I recently spotted

No, but I totally understand why one would think so based on my political opinions (though I would likely be less of an ideological religious Zionist in that case.)

I'm sick of the US being attacked no matter what it does.

Irony overload.

[DavidB.]

So apparently Obama and Hollande are scheming to impose a second resolution, this one ordering Israel to abide by third-party peace plans, before the term is over.

I'm almost wondering if Obama's goal here is to push things so far that the US-Israeli relationship cannot be repaired even under a new President. It's the only thing that makes sense at this point, besides him simply being a stupid, vengeful person who doesn't understand foreign relations.

It is as if they live on another planet. No one will care about this or any upcoming resolution after January 20, and no one will take any steps to implement them. Meanwhile, the Israeli right will be emboldened, which may lead to the immediate annexation of Maale Adumim after Trump takes office. Great job, Obama!

[DavidB.]

Then, you'll have the blood of European Jews on your hands.

[DavidB.]

You're very aware any move like the ones you suggest will cause yet another anti-semitic flare in Europe, including attacks.

It's up to European governments to prevent that. Can't blame Israel for that, although I know antisemites always like to do so.

Note that's totally Bibi plan, making to rest of the world so dangerous for the Jewish people than they are forced to move in Israel.

I, for one, think one must be "totally" deranged to think this would be Bibi's plan, but ok. I do think it is G-d's plan, but that's something wholly different.

[DavidB.]

I'm not blaming Israel, I'm blaming Nethanyahu. If he the great defender of the Jewish people all around the world like he claims he is (and so lecturing world leaders about Jewish issues all the time), why does he follow policies that hurt the very people he claims to want to protect?

It's not Netanyahu's responsibility to protect Jews in Europe, and as a Jew in Europe the last thing I would want is for Israel to act all cucked up internationally or domestically because of us. A strong Israel empowers Jews all over the world. A weak Israel weakens Jews all over the world.

I don't want to sound harsh or agressive, but if G-d plan is to make all Jewish people to move back to Israel, why are you still living in Netherlands? Aren't you disobeying G-d by staying in Europe?

This is none of your business, though I would be willing to discuss it with someone who is not hostile like you are.

[DavidB.]

How does a strong/weak Israel strengthen or weaken my Jewish friend who has full tattoo sleeves and is posting about Christmas gifts on Facebook this morning? Don't see how Israel impacts her livelihood in Columbia Heights, MN.

Time for iggy, you're so boring.

[DavidB.]

Self-IDing "Christian Zionists" obviously have a different worldview than Israeli nationalists.

[DavidB.]

The real coward here is Barack Obama- he's now spitting unprecedented attacks against the Netanyahu administration, but he only has the guts because Clinton wasn't elected. He's like a little child who's coy when his parents are there, but throws tantrums whenever they're not there.

ftfy

AW and Mencken get it.

I don't like Netanyahu, but every Jew who chooses to criticize Netanyahu instead of Obama right now has their priorities -- and probably actually more than that: their values -- profoundly messed up.

[DavidB.]

Can someone please answer my question above?

14 countries voted for it, the US abstained and 0 voted against it.

[DavidB.]

Can someone please answer my question above?

14 countries voted for it, the US abstained and 0 voted against it.

Thank you. None even joined the US in abstaining.

The U.S. lobbied with countries (Ukraine, NZ are already confirmed) in order to have them vote yes, so that's why.

[DavidB.]

And Israel lobbied the other way. Those countries made their decisions.

Just like the U.S. made its decision for Donald Trump, who will be amazing for Israel. Thank you & enjoy the next eight years!

Next summer I'll be building houses in the newest, freshest outposts again anyway, probably with the support of the U.S. administration. Cry moar, Obama!

[DavidB.]

And Israel lobbied the other way. Those countries made their decisions.

Just like the U.S. made its decision for Donald Trump, who will be amazing for Israel. Thank you & enjoy the next eight years!

Next summer I'll be building houses in the newest, freshest outposts again anyway, probably with the support of the U.S. administration. Cry moar, Obama!

Don't be so sure he'll look at it the same way when he actually takes office. Remember, George Bush opposed tge settlements. His father and Ronald Reagan fiercely opposed the settlements. Trump is unpredictable- you can't be entirely sure  what he'll do.

This is true but doesn't make for good trolling, and in all fairness Trump's appointment of David Friedman as well as his past statements do indicate that his stance on the settlement issue is differs from former presidents' viewpoints.