Ron Paul Introduces Healthcare Reform

[Vepres]

So is he advocating singlepayer or am I misunderstanding what a tax credit does?

That's what I'm thinking.  Maybe us health care liberals should just go along with it.

Might as well sell the left over chicken fried steak as dark meat, eh Lief?

THIS JUST IN: A tax credit is a form of big government spending.

I'm tired of this full-a-sh**t orgasm people get when the term tax credit is used.

It's just a buzz-word used so Joe Blows like Verpes over here won't feel like the government is giving him a handout when the Treasury cuts him his $1500 "refund check" to pay for his healthcare costs.  Yet if Health and Human Services sent him $1500 written out to Victory Memorial Hospital, he'd cry foul.

They give you the money, but you get to choose how it is spent on health, not the government. Besides, tax cuts are not really a handout, but an exemption from taxes. Thus government collects less money.

Except the government collects it and then you file for it.  So the government is writing a check to people to pay for costs.

And if you can only get the credit based on the costs, then you would have to already be billed to get it.  So you aren't choosing anything when you receive this money.  The choice has to already have been made.

Yeah, but YOU made the choice.

Unless you are paying your medical costs out of pocket (lol), no you did not. Some dude working for an insurance company did.

Yep.  Ron is selling socialized medicine with everything renamed to protect the innocent.

Uh, no. Is the government mandating you have insurance? Is the government giving you other people's money, or your money? Is the government monopolizing health insurance policy? Are they telling doctors what they will or will not cover? No, they dole out the money, but they make no decisions or policies, the companies do and you choose the company.

its a tax credit and thus it is tax payer funded. Obviously you would know this if you looked at where the check from the obama tax cut came from....Unless you dont have a job.

It's refunding YOUR money, not doling out others' money.

So if you don't pay income taxes, you're ed?

Payroll tax?

Besides, there's something called Medicaid.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Very interesting....but what if your healthcare expenses are more than the amount of tax you pay? You have to pay that difference out of pocket? Plus this would be devastating to the deficit, although Ron Paul won't care about that. He is just starving the beast he would say, as if that itself will stop spending. Except for allowing consumers to by across state lines and encouraging HSA's, I don't know if I like this bill.

People who support Obama are suddenly worried about the deficit?

Paul's overall economic programme of vastly reducing spending would eliminate the deficit, but it will of course go ignored.

Ron Paul wants to get rid of central banking and thus he wants to ensure that we will never be able to pay off our debts.

Please just stop saying words already, Hoffman.

[Sbane]

Very interesting....but what if your healthcare expenses are more than the amount of tax you pay? You have to pay that difference out of pocket? Plus this would be devastating to the deficit, although Ron Paul won't care about that. He is just starving the beast he would say, as if that itself will stop spending. Except for allowing consumers to by across state lines and encouraging HSA's, I don't know if I like this bill.

People who support Obama are suddenly worried about the deficit?

Paul's overall economic programme of vastly reducing spending would eliminate the deficit, but it will of course go ignored.

The deficit needs to be controlled, there is no doubt about that. But have you noticed how much godamn money this government spends? I would much rather they spend it on the welfare of their citizens rather than killing the citizens of other countries. That is all.

[Vepres]

Very interesting....but what if your healthcare expenses are more than the amount of tax you pay? You have to pay that difference out of pocket? Plus this would be devastating to the deficit, although Ron Paul won't care about that. He is just starving the beast he would say, as if that itself will stop spending. Except for allowing consumers to by across state lines and encouraging HSA's, I don't know if I like this bill.

People who support Obama are suddenly worried about the deficit?

Paul's overall economic programme of vastly reducing spending would eliminate the deficit, but it will of course go ignored.

The deficit needs to be controlled, there is no doubt about that. But have you noticed how much godamn money this government spends? I would much rather they spend it on the welfare of their citizens rather than killing the citizens of other countries. That is all.

Ron Paul would say to cut both.

[Free Palestine]

Please just stop saying words already, Hoffman.

[King]

1. Uh, no. Is the government mandating you have insurance?

2. Is the government giving you other people's money, or your money?

3. Is the government monopolizing health insurance policy?

4. Are they telling doctors what they will or will not cover? No, they dole out the money,

5. but they make no decisions or policies, the companies do and you choose the company.

(1) No, actually, it makes all health care free by giving tax return checks for any health care cost.  If anything, it might discourage the rich from even bothering to get health insurance if an injury means having to pay no taxes.  Who needs to give to charity when you can just get regular checkups to pay your taxes?  

That also makes health insurance a loser's business with only lower working middle class clients (not poor enough for Medicaid, not old enough to Medicare, and not rich enough to pay on tax credits) and likely causes the market to consolidate and creates less choice.

(2) It's giving me the people's money.  I doubt they save my payroll and income taxes in a little envelope until I file my return.  The $x I get will be from the pool of revenues they collect every year.  Or do you not understand monetary circulation?

(3) By pretty much making anything that isn't low-premium, high-deductible insurance that only services lower middle-class consumers non-competitive, I say that it is.

(4) You've just described how the British National Health Service works.

(5) They pressure you into certain plans as mentioned in #3.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Very interesting....but what if your healthcare expenses are more than the amount of tax you pay? You have to pay that difference out of pocket? Plus this would be devastating to the deficit, although Ron Paul won't care about that. He is just starving the beast he would say, as if that itself will stop spending. Except for allowing consumers to by across state lines and encouraging HSA's, I don't know if I like this bill.

People who support Obama are suddenly worried about the deficit?

Paul's overall economic programme of vastly reducing spending would eliminate the deficit, but it will of course go ignored.

The deficit needs to be controlled, there is no doubt about that. But have you noticed how much godamn money this government spends? I would much rather they spend it on the welfare of their citizens rather than killing the citizens of other countries. That is all.

So where is the disagreement here then?

[Vepres]

(4) You've just described how the British National Health Service works.

You obviously have no idea how the NHS works. They have committees decide what treatments are acceptable financially. (This is different than death panels, they ban types of treatmens.).

[Vepres]

Look, I'm not saying Paul's plan is amazing, but it sure as Hell better than what you lefties think.

[King]

(4) You've just described how the British National Health Service works.

You obviously have no idea how the NHS works. They have committees decide what treatments are acceptable financially. (This is different than death panels, they ban types of treatmens.).

Yes.  These committees are currently located in those beautiful skyscrapers with "Kaiser Permanente" written on them.  

You have one point, we do get to choose which committee hears our case.  But as a I said in #1, choice of committee will likely decrease as the market consolidates and demand for health insurance dips.

[Sbane]

So is he advocating singlepayer or am I misunderstanding what a tax credit does?

That's what I'm thinking.  Maybe us health care liberals should just go along with it.

Might as well sell the left over chicken fried steak as dark meat, eh Lief?

THIS JUST IN: A tax credit is a form of big government spending.

I'm tired of this full-a-sh**t orgasm people get when the term tax credit is used.

It's just a buzz-word used so Joe Blows like Verpes over here won't feel like the government is giving him a handout when the Treasury cuts him his $1500 "refund check" to pay for his healthcare costs.  Yet if Health and Human Services sent him $1500 written out to Victory Memorial Hospital, he'd cry foul.

They give you the money, but you get to choose how it is spent on health, not the government. Besides, tax cuts are not really a handout, but an exemption from taxes. Thus government collects less money.

Except the government collects it and then you file for it.  So the government is writing a check to people to pay for costs.

And if you can only get the credit based on the costs, then you would have to already be billed to get it.  So you aren't choosing anything when you receive this money.  The choice has to already have been made.

Yeah, but YOU made the choice.

Unless you are paying your medical costs out of pocket (lol), no you did not. Some dude working for an insurance company did.

Yep.  Ron is selling socialized medicine with everything renamed to protect the innocent.

Uh, no. Is the government mandating you have insurance? Is the government giving you other people's money, or your money? Is the government monopolizing health insurance policy? Are they telling doctors what they will or will not cover? No, they dole out the money, but they make no decisions or policies, the companies do and you choose the company.

its a tax credit and thus it is tax payer funded. Obviously you would know this if you looked at where the check from the obama tax cut came from....Unless you dont have a job.

It's refunding YOUR money, not doling out others' money.

So if you don't pay income taxes, you're ed?

Payroll tax?

Besides, there's something called Medicaid.

That's for medicare and social security.....or so they say haha. And Medicaid doesn't even cover everyone who is poor in many states. Of course "Obamacare" changed that but I'm sure you didn't approve.

[Vepres]

So is he advocating singlepayer or am I misunderstanding what a tax credit does?

That's what I'm thinking.  Maybe us health care liberals should just go along with it.

Might as well sell the left over chicken fried steak as dark meat, eh Lief?

THIS JUST IN: A tax credit is a form of big government spending.

I'm tired of this full-a-sh**t orgasm people get when the term tax credit is used.

It's just a buzz-word used so Joe Blows like Verpes over here won't feel like the government is giving him a handout when the Treasury cuts him his $1500 "refund check" to pay for his healthcare costs.  Yet if Health and Human Services sent him $1500 written out to Victory Memorial Hospital, he'd cry foul.

They give you the money, but you get to choose how it is spent on health, not the government. Besides, tax cuts are not really a handout, but an exemption from taxes. Thus government collects less money.

Except the government collects it and then you file for it.  So the government is writing a check to people to pay for costs.

And if you can only get the credit based on the costs, then you would have to already be billed to get it.  So you aren't choosing anything when you receive this money.  The choice has to already have been made.

Yeah, but YOU made the choice.

Unless you are paying your medical costs out of pocket (lol), no you did not. Some dude working for an insurance company did.

Yep.  Ron is selling socialized medicine with everything renamed to protect the innocent.

Uh, no. Is the government mandating you have insurance? Is the government giving you other people's money, or your money? Is the government monopolizing health insurance policy? Are they telling doctors what they will or will not cover? No, they dole out the money, but they make no decisions or policies, the companies do and you choose the company.

its a tax credit and thus it is tax payer funded. Obviously you would know this if you looked at where the check from the obama tax cut came from....Unless you dont have a job.

It's refunding YOUR money, not doling out others' money.

So if you don't pay income taxes, you're ed?

Payroll tax?

Besides, there's something called Medicaid.

That's for medicare and social security.....or so they say haha. And Medicaid doesn't even cover everyone who is poor in many states. Of course "Obamacare" changed that but I'm sure you didn't approve.

No, because states can't afford it.

[Vepres]

All in all, King, Paul's plan isn't so great. I think that people should just be responsible for themselves, pay out of pocket for most things, and give those who cannot afford it support.

[King]

Look, I'm not saying Paul's plan is amazing, but it sure as Hell better than what you lefties think.

And I'm just saying it's a single-payer national health insurance program with slightly modified means of administration--in that it's run out of the Treasury-to-providers instead of HHS-to-providers.  Likely, taxes would be raised to cover the ENORMOUS loss of revenue by this program.  As opposed to taxes would be raised to cover the ENORMOUS increase in spending by this program.

Oh and it gets banks into the wonderful world of insurance.  I'm sure no financial institution can pass up the "finance your large healthcare bill and pay it off with your tax credit instead of paying premiums" game.

I support this plan because it gets people right of the center to believe in something the left is arguing for and feel justified.  That's the definition of compromise right there.

[Sbane]

Very interesting....but what if your healthcare expenses are more than the amount of tax you pay? You have to pay that difference out of pocket? Plus this would be devastating to the deficit, although Ron Paul won't care about that. He is just starving the beast he would say, as if that itself will stop spending. Except for allowing consumers to by across state lines and encouraging HSA's, I don't know if I like this bill.

People who support Obama are suddenly worried about the deficit?

Paul's overall economic programme of vastly reducing spending would eliminate the deficit, but it will of course go ignored.

The deficit needs to be controlled, there is no doubt about that. But have you noticed how much godamn money this government spends? I would much rather they spend it on the welfare of their citizens rather than killing the citizens of other countries. That is all.

So where is the disagreement here then?

Well, I just don't think "starving the beast" is a very good strategy. First the spending cuts must be made, hopefully to the military industrial complex, then the tax credits should be given out. Taking money away from the government is very popular, but people tend to get pissed when politicians start cutting things. And don't even pretend as if it's only liberals. We both know conservatives would be the ones most pissed if we scrapped military spending on technology we will never use.

[Vepres]

Look, I'm not saying Paul's plan is amazing, but it sure as Hell better than what you lefties think.

And I'm just saying it's a single-payer national health insurance program with slightly modified means of administration--in that it's run out of the Treasury-to-providers instead of HHS-to-providers.

Oh and it gets banks into the wonderful world of insurance.  I'm sure no financial institution can pass up the "finance your large healthcare bill and pay it off with your tax credit instead of paying premiums" game.

I support this plan because it gets people right of the center to believe in something the left is arguing for and feel justified.  That's the definition of compromise right there.

All in all, King, Paul's plan isn't so great. I think that people should just be responsible for themselves, pay out of pocket for most things, and give those who cannot afford it support.

[Sbane]

So is he advocating singlepayer or am I misunderstanding what a tax credit does?

That's what I'm thinking.  Maybe us health care liberals should just go along with it.

Might as well sell the left over chicken fried steak as dark meat, eh Lief?

THIS JUST IN: A tax credit is a form of big government spending.

I'm tired of this full-a-sh**t orgasm people get when the term tax credit is used.

It's just a buzz-word used so Joe Blows like Verpes over here won't feel like the government is giving him a handout when the Treasury cuts him his $1500 "refund check" to pay for his healthcare costs.  Yet if Health and Human Services sent him $1500 written out to Victory Memorial Hospital, he'd cry foul.

They give you the money, but you get to choose how it is spent on health, not the government. Besides, tax cuts are not really a handout, but an exemption from taxes. Thus government collects less money.

Except the government collects it and then you file for it.  So the government is writing a check to people to pay for costs.

And if you can only get the credit based on the costs, then you would have to already be billed to get it.  So you aren't choosing anything when you receive this money.  The choice has to already have been made.

Yeah, but YOU made the choice.

Unless you are paying your medical costs out of pocket (lol), no you did not. Some dude working for an insurance company did.

Yep.  Ron is selling socialized medicine with everything renamed to protect the innocent.

Uh, no. Is the government mandating you have insurance? Is the government giving you other people's money, or your money? Is the government monopolizing health insurance policy? Are they telling doctors what they will or will not cover? No, they dole out the money, but they make no decisions or policies, the companies do and you choose the company.

its a tax credit and thus it is tax payer funded. Obviously you would know this if you looked at where the check from the obama tax cut came from....Unless you dont have a job.

It's refunding YOUR money, not doling out others' money.

So if you don't pay income taxes, you're ed?

Payroll tax?

Besides, there's something called Medicaid.

That's for medicare and social security.....or so they say haha. And Medicaid doesn't even cover everyone who is poor in many states. Of course "Obamacare" changed that but I'm sure you didn't approve.

No, because states can't afford it.

Right, meaning under Paul's plan many people would be left with no health care except for the emergency room. I don't see how that is an improvement.

[Vepres]

So is he advocating singlepayer or am I misunderstanding what a tax credit does?

That's what I'm thinking.  Maybe us health care liberals should just go along with it.

Might as well sell the left over chicken fried steak as dark meat, eh Lief?

THIS JUST IN: A tax credit is a form of big government spending.

I'm tired of this full-a-sh**t orgasm people get when the term tax credit is used.

It's just a buzz-word used so Joe Blows like Verpes over here won't feel like the government is giving him a handout when the Treasury cuts him his $1500 "refund check" to pay for his healthcare costs.  Yet if Health and Human Services sent him $1500 written out to Victory Memorial Hospital, he'd cry foul.

They give you the money, but you get to choose how it is spent on health, not the government. Besides, tax cuts are not really a handout, but an exemption from taxes. Thus government collects less money.

Except the government collects it and then you file for it.  So the government is writing a check to people to pay for costs.

And if you can only get the credit based on the costs, then you would have to already be billed to get it.  So you aren't choosing anything when you receive this money.  The choice has to already have been made.

Yeah, but YOU made the choice.

Unless you are paying your medical costs out of pocket (lol), no you did not. Some dude working for an insurance company did.

Yep.  Ron is selling socialized medicine with everything renamed to protect the innocent.

Uh, no. Is the government mandating you have insurance? Is the government giving you other people's money, or your money? Is the government monopolizing health insurance policy? Are they telling doctors what they will or will not cover? No, they dole out the money, but they make no decisions or policies, the companies do and you choose the company.

its a tax credit and thus it is tax payer funded. Obviously you would know this if you looked at where the check from the obama tax cut came from....Unless you dont have a job.

It's refunding YOUR money, not doling out others' money.

So if you don't pay income taxes, you're ed?

Payroll tax?

Besides, there's something called Medicaid.

That's for medicare and social security.....or so they say haha. And Medicaid doesn't even cover everyone who is poor in many states. Of course "Obamacare" changed that but I'm sure you didn't approve.

No, because states can't afford it.

Right, meaning under Paul's plan many people would be left with no health care except for the emergency room. I don't see how that is an improvement.

All in all, King, Paul's plan isn't so great. I think that people should just be responsible for themselves, pay out of pocket for most things, and give those who cannot afford it support.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

You obviously have no idea how the NHS works.

Neither do you.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Well, no. Not really. There is a committee that decides what drugs it makes sense to be funded for by taxpayers money (but it doesn't decide on the legality of drugs), but that's only a very minor part of the system. NICE isn't perfect, but most criticism of it is astroturfing from the pharmaceutical industry. Almost all of the running of the service - and spending decisions - is done within NHS Trusts. Central government (and NICE is operationally seperate from that) mostly decides how much money the service gets, while also drawing up strategic and general policy stuff.

[Vepres]

Look, I'm not saying Paul's plan is amazing, but it sure as Hell better than what you lefties think.

And I'm just saying it's a single-payer national health insurance program with slightly modified means of administration--in that it's run out of the Treasury-to-providers instead of HHS-to-providers.  Likely, taxes would be raised to cover the ENORMOUS loss of revenue by this program.  As opposed to taxes would be raised to cover the ENORMOUS increase in spending by this program.

Oh and it gets banks into the wonderful world of insurance.  I'm sure no financial institution can pass up the "finance your large healthcare bill and pay it off with your tax credit instead of paying premiums" game.

I support this plan because it gets people right of the center to believe in something the left is arguing for and feel justified.  That's the definition of compromise right there.

It's very different, actually.

1. It doesn't monopolize insurance, it simply helps pay for premiums.
2. It doesn't set deliverance policy, it simply helps you pay your deliverer.

Again,

All in all, King, Paul's plan isn't so great. I think that people should just be responsible for themselves, pay out of pocket for most things, and give those who cannot afford it support.

[King]

Yes, Verpes I know I know I know.  But I didn't wanna just waste that heartfelt paragraph I wrote.  And I'm saying that's single-payer, perhaps with weaker regulations.

All in all, King, Paul's plan isn't so great. I think that people should just be responsible for themselves, pay out of pocket for most things, and give those who cannot afford it support.

But Verpes, let me ask you this: isn't telling people to be responsible for themselves while giving support to those who can't the very nature just sharing the wealth?

It's not just in this thread, Verpes, but it sounds to me like you hold a very leftist ideology deep inside your heart.  You just hate the language of liberalism and find comfort in hearing conservative rhetoric.  Everything you always stand for is just socialism wearing a hat.

Well, no. Not really. There is a committee that decides what drugs it makes sense to be funded for by taxpayers money (but it doesn't decide on the legality of drugs), but that's only a very minor part of the system. NICE isn't perfect, but most criticism of it is astroturfing from the pharmaceutical industry. Almost all of the running of the service - and spending decisions - is done within NHS Trusts. Central government (and NICE is operationally seperate from that) mostly decides how much money the service gets, while also drawing up strategic and general policy stuff.

NICE sounds like a beefed up FDA.

[Marokai Backbeat]

Now Libertas apparently likes tax credits. He didn't used to, of course, when it gave him a chance to bitch. But since Ron Paul proposed it..

Prevented the market from correcting itself, spent massive amounts of money that should have instead gone to cut taxes, implemented interventionist programs that harm the economy, etc, etc.

But Obama did cut taxes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stimulus_Bill_of_2009#Tax_cuts

"Tax credits" are not tax cuts.

Increasing deficit spending to give "tax credits" to people who didn't pay taxes in the first place (i.e. welfare) only exacerbates the problem I described.

Nice try, though.

Tax credits are effectively the same thing as tax cuts, as they reduce taxation, just in return for specific conditions. A reduction in the amount of taxes is a tax cut by definition, as a "tax cut" is not an action in itself, but the phrase used for "tax reduction" and reduction=cut=drop=lowering. It's just not a blanket tax reduction.

Also, I had no idea that vast amounts of the American public paid no payroll taxes, sales taxes, toll taxes, state-specific taxes, consumption taxes, or gas taxes! Obviously federal income taxes are the only taxes that exist!

As if you've ever paid taxes in your life.

Sorry, I'm not going to debate something ridiculous like this. A "tax credit" is not a tax cut. If the government sent you a "tax credit" check, that's as clear an example of welfare masquerading as a tax cut as I've ever seen.

[King]

Libertas spoke the truth!  But unfortunately, it contradicts the word of his cultmaster Ron Paul.

Le sigh.

[Vepres]

Yes, Verpes I know I know I know.  But I didn't wanna just waste that heartfelt paragraph I wrote.  And I'm saying that's single-payer, perhaps with weaker regulations.

All in all, King, Paul's plan isn't so great. I think that people should just be responsible for themselves, pay out of pocket for most things, and give those who cannot afford it support.

But Vepres, let me ask you this: isn't telling people to be responsible for themselves while giving support to those who can't the very nature just sharing the wealth?

It's not just in this thread, Vepres, but it sounds to me like you hold a very leftist ideology deep inside your heart.  You just hate the language of liberalism and find comfort in hearing conservative rhetoric.  Everything you always stand for is just socialism wearing a hat.

Well, I was actually a Democrat when I first got into politics (two years before I joined the forum), but I take issue with liberal attitudes. I like universal coverage, but the only proponents of it seem to want to restrict choice. I don't mind higher taxes, but I don't like giving them exclusively to the rich. I like welfare, but I don't think it should be blindly given to people because then they'll be complacent.

In fact, now that I think about it, I'm more of a third-way supporter. Curse you King for causing me to enter into deep self analysis!

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Libertas spoke the truth!  But unfortunately, it contradicts the word of his cultmaster Ron Paul.

Le sigh.

Neither Dr. Paul nor I ever claimed that a tax credit is a tax cut. Another fail by Marokai Blue.