The most influental U.S. presidential loser of the 20th Century? (user search)
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
May 19, 2024, 01:15:10 PM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  General Discussion
  History (Moderator: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee)
  The most influental U.S. presidential loser of the 20th Century? (search mode)
Pages: [1]
Author Topic: The most influental U.S. presidential loser of the 20th Century?  (Read 4001 times)
Frink
Lafayette53
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 703
United States


Political Matrix
E: -2.39, S: -6.17

« on: October 02, 2010, 04:26:31 PM »

The case for Hoover: FDR took some of Hoover's failed policies (particularly towards the end, 1932), multiplied them x10, and succeeded spectacularly. Then when WWII broke out, he took his own policies, multiplied them x10 again, and succeeded even more spectacularly.

I'll agree that FDR was able to out-Hoover Hoover with his economic policies, but I wouldn't call it a spectacular success, except on the PR front.

Decreasing unemployment by 15%, halting a nation-wide banking collapse, ending nearly 50 years of labor-management conflict,building some of the most lasting vestiges of beauty in the entire United States in the process, and then bringing this nation out of its most devastating depression with the buildup to WWII isn't a spectacular success?
Logged
Frink
Lafayette53
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 703
United States


Political Matrix
E: -2.39, S: -6.17

« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2010, 12:09:32 AM »


How was Hoover at all influential after 1932? The Republican Party even abandoned his conservative foreign policy and adopted FDR's internationalism. Robert Taft could not once get nominated.

Hoover managed to singlehandedly ruin America, and the effects of his ruination continue to be felt today.

Single-handedly ruin? Andrew Mellon, several senators, and the entire Federal Reserve (biggest culprit) certainly had a rather large hand in it themselves.
Logged
Frink
Lafayette53
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 703
United States


Political Matrix
E: -2.39, S: -6.17

« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2010, 09:40:07 PM »

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

It depends on which numbers you use, the statistics you use don't count relief workers which I think is very disingenuous to the topic, and if you use figures that count relief workers it slots in right below 10%. Even using only private nonfarm unemployment it went lower than 14.3%, actually.

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

Yes halting the banking collapse was due to his PR skills, why doesn't he deserve due credit for something that was 100% on him such as his PR skills? PR skills are vital to a good presidency in time of crisis and if his were such that he stopped one of the worst threats to our banking system than I'd say he's put them to a very good use.

The RFC helped briefly with Banks as well, but that was Hoovers beast as you know.

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

There were other examples of strikes and labor-management conflict you declined to cite. San Fransisco in 1934, for example, was one rather nasty one that was poorly handled by Roosevelt & Co. He has blemishes on his record for sure. Also the NRA was pretty much fascist and by far the most anti-labor pro-management alphabet agency of the New Deal, so don't discount that in your argument.

The problem with using something that happened in 1934 to say he had a poor record on that, was that it ignores the Wagner Act (1935) which radically altered the balance of power from management to labor, and at least temporarily brought a form of mediation to the constant bickering. It wasn't a perfect system (strikes were rampant and a bit too much power was given to big labor), but it ended the even more unbalanced status quo that had previously existed for 50 years, yes.

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

Robert Moses isn't the sum of all New Deal beautification and construction projects.

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

The WPA was not really a continuation of the ERA, but rather the Roosevelt era Civil Works Administration. The PWA (Public Works Administration) was continued a good deal of the Public Works spending that was in the ERA.

The FERA emergency dole was a continuation of the relief given by the ERA, but greater in size and administrative prowess (thanks to Hopkins). This is pretty much consistent with my belief that FDR's brand of relief was mostly a continuation of Hoover's policies, but implemented on a larger scale as well as more effective scale (also its important to note most of Hoovers emergency spending didn't really begin until 1932), and that Hoover was simply the wrong man at the wrong time.

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

It well known he was merely a very strong advocate of a national level conservation corps (based on the success of the examples you mentioned) rather than its originator. I think I'm missing your point in this here somewhere?

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

This postulates that US involvement in WWII was inevitable and a complete accident. Thats not a view I can reconcile with. Certainly the buildup and mobilization could have been ordered much later than it was IRL.

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

I'd say the circumstances and the fact that the country is still here today automatically make him above average, but flawed. I don't think the New Deal got us out of the Depression (sane), but certain aspects of it definitely did something to alleviate the worst of it while the Fed got its house in order and WWII loomed.
Logged
Frink
Lafayette53
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 703
United States


Political Matrix
E: -2.39, S: -6.17

« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2010, 09:43:51 PM »


How was Hoover at all influential after 1932? The Republican Party even abandoned his conservative foreign policy and adopted FDR's internationalism. Robert Taft could not once get nominated.

Hoover managed to singlehandedly ruin America, and the effects of his ruination continue to be felt today.

Single-handedly ruin? Andrew Mellon, several senators, and the entire Federal Reserve (biggest culprit) certainly had a rather large hand in it themselves.

Hoover just get the entire s**t hitting the air. While he indeed was a clumsy in dealing with depression, he's not the one responsible for collapse. Such things are long running processes with a deeper roots.

I actually exonerate Hoover of the blame. While his attempt at wage-fixing was a definite contributor to the problem (indeed several studies of the Great Depression find Sticky Wages to be among the most compelling causes up there with the tariff and money contraction), I'd generally say he was the wrong man at the wrong time and that a couple of his policies towards the end did genuinely help.
Logged
Frink
Lafayette53
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 703
United States


Political Matrix
E: -2.39, S: -6.17

« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2010, 01:32:50 AM »

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

Well I think we can agree that you probably don't end up with Taft-Hartley without the Wagner Act happening first. The central point I was trying to make is that it halted a good deal of the extremely heated labor unrest we were seeing on the West Coast in 1934, Minnesota, etc. by moving it to the courts.

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

Wow.. I just realized how much of an arrogant bastard I came off as there. I apologize.

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

I was claiming the main accomplishments of his presidency as a whole were evidence of a spectacular success; not that FDR was a uniquely special saint thrust down upon us from the gods for good behavior. I don't think I implied that at all, but merely implied that I think the real accomplishments of his presidency were a spectacular success.

For the record I think if Garner or Smith had won the nomination there is a good chance we would have seen similar relief programs out of both necessity and utility. Smith, in particular, probably only took his rightward turn in reaction to his loss to Roosevelt in the convention.

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

It wasn't to the same scale as it was starting in about 1938/39 or so, but yes it was a not often talked about part of the New Deal from the beginning.
Logged
Pages: [1]  
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.029 seconds with 12 queries.