Ukraine Crisis

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Russian UN Ambassador says that Yanukovych has written to Putin asking him to use military force in Ukraine. Could be disinformatsiya, but puppets are puppets.

The latest rumor is that, having conveniently produced the letter, Yanukovich died.

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It is pretty clear that Ukraine will not be defended. They will find some "compromise", that will attempt to give Russia full control, without giving it that name. The Protectorate of Lesser and New Russia will seem like a minor price to pay to avoid the war. Russia will be slightly slapped by sanctions, which will only help Putin establish and maintain the isolation he desires. For a few months everybody will congratulate each other that they preserved peace. Then Putin will ask for seconds. And thirds. And more. I wonder, if Kalwejt wakes up before or after Gdansk?

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Seek a mental health professional.

I, actually, live in Mexico. When sh**t hits the fan we will, as usual, send a crappy squadron of poor folk to the Pacific to express our support, and be done with it. It is the rest of you who will need help.

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Seek a mental health professional.

I, actually, live in Mexico. When sh**t hits the fan we will, as usual, send a crappy squadron of poor folk to the Pacific to express our support, and be done with it. It is the rest of you who will need help.

Reclaiming a territory that had been part of Russia for over two centuries is a slippery slope to invading the United States?

Hitler never invaded the US, btw. Poland and Czecoslovakia did not get their German minorities by accdent either.

Unlike you I merely understand what is Putin. I know the type. It IS scary.

Un

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It is pretty clear that Ukraine will not be defended. They will find some "compromise", that will attempt to give Russia full control, without giving it that name.

You forget that there are quite a few people that don't want to be a Russian puppy.

Were there any fewer in Czechoslovakia?

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WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States has put trade and investment talks with Russia on hold as a rebuke for Russia's incursion into Ukraine, a United States official said on Monday.

"We have suspended upcoming bilateral trade and investment engagement with the government of Russia that were part of a move toward deeper commercial and trade ties," a spokesman for the Office of the US Trade Representative said.

We also threw out Putin's Teddy bear.

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Can Russia be expelled from the World Trade Organization?  

Would be much easier to remove restrictions on oil exports from the US. Will have a lot more effect.

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Can Russia be expelled from the World Trade Organization?  

Would be much easier to remove restrictions on oil exports from the US. Will have a lot more effect.

Plus natural gas, but that would mean a different US energy policy.

And, of course, even that is too big a price to pay for saving the world.

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Re UK econ sanctions: Cameron doesn't want to drain the City of Russian money.

Then just arrest it

alas...

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Seek a mental health professional.

I, actually, live in Mexico. When sh**t hits the fan we will, as usual, send a crappy squadron of poor folk to the Pacific to express our support, and be done with it. It is the rest of you who will need help.

Reclaiming a territory that had been part of Russia for over two centuries is a slippery slope to invading the United States?

Hitler never invaded the US, btw. Poland and Czecoslovakia did not get their German minorities by accdent either.

Unlike you I merely understand what is Putin. I know the type. It IS scary.

Un

The United States didn't fight Hitler in the Pacific either.

Yep, it fought him in France and in Germany.

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So this Yanukovych dead thing isn't just a crazy rumor being tossed around and more like a unsubstantiated rumor being given attention by some serious outlets? Because that's just bizarre especially that such a thing would be tried by the Russians being so blatant (has he had any prior health problems?)

In all fairness though it's not too clear what Putin and the Russians would gain by having him dead. He seems like the type who it'd be best to just shuffle away to some villa on the Black Sea for a quiet low key retirement and becoming a non-issue.

It seems he was not willing to issue a call to arms. That press conference in Rostov was bizarre: he was talking too much nonsense even by his own standards (hell, having been a president of Ukraine for so many years, he literally confused Russia and Ukraine, said something like "Ukraine has been our key partner").  Still, he explicitly said he does NOT want Russian troops there.

Nobody sees him afterwards. The next day there is a written statement saying he wants Russian troops in Crimea. Then today there is another one, saying he wants a Russian invasion. And then he seems to be dead.

You know the old story about the mummy they found in Egypt? They could not figure out, to whom it belonged, so they invited Russian specialists. These ordered everybody to get out of the room, so they could stay alone with the mummy. For a while there were yells and screams, then the Russians get out, wiping the sweat of their brows, and say: "It is Amehnotep XXVI". "How did you figure it out?" " The son of a bitch fessed up".

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Seek a mental health professional.

I, actually, live in Mexico. When sh**t hits the fan we will, as usual, send a crappy squadron of poor folk to the Pacific to express our support, and be done with it. It is the rest of you who will need help.

Reclaiming a territory that had been part of Russia for over two centuries is a slippery slope to invading the United States?

Actually only 1784-1954.

And the United States is supposed to take action to defend the capricious border changes set by Nikolai Khrushchev?

You swore in a treaty to do this - in exchange for taking Ukrainian nukes. Do not want to do it? Give back the nukes.

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Seek a mental health professional.

I, actually, live in Mexico. When sh**t hits the fan we will, as usual, send a crappy squadron of poor folk to the Pacific to express our support, and be done with it. It is the rest of you who will need help.

Reclaiming a territory that had been part of Russia for over two centuries is a slippery slope to invading the United States?

Actually only 1784-1954.

And the United States is supposed to take action to defend the capricious border changes set by Nikolai Khrushchev?

You swore in a treaty to do this - in exchange for taking Ukrainian nukes. Do not want to do it? Give back the nukes.

I didn't sign anything, and any such agreement requiring American taxpayers to defend a nation that does not serve their national defense isn't worth the paper it was written on. Do not hold me accountable for the Ukrainian leadership at the time being foolish enough to rely on the West for their defense when they had an adequate deterrent.

You did not. But your government did, and your Congress ratified.

In any case, if you do not want to be held accountable, then do not be surprised if within the next 10 years pretty much everybody has a nuke of their own (states and non-state groups included). In the case of Ukraine, they should be able to produce one within a couple of years (they have power stations, from which they can extract plutonium, and have more than enough scientists and engineers who know how to do it).  They, of course, would not use it against the US (they would much prefer to explode it on the Red Square). But there will be a few dozen groups that will.

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Seek a mental health professional.

I, actually, live in Mexico. When sh**t hits the fan we will, as usual, send a crappy squadron of poor folk to the Pacific to express our support, and be done with it. It is the rest of you who will need help.

Reclaiming a territory that had been part of Russia for over two centuries is a slippery slope to invading the United States?

Actually only 1784-1954.

And the United States is supposed to take action to defend the capricious border changes set by Nikolai Khrushchev?

You swore in a treaty to do this - in exchange for taking Ukrainian nukes. Do not want to do it? Give back the nukes.

I didn't sign anything, and any such agreement requiring American taxpayers to defend a nation that does not serve their national defense isn't worth the paper it was written on. Do not hold me accountable for the Ukrainian leadership at the time being foolish enough to rely on the West for their defense when they had an adequate deterrent.


As an aside, since you seem convinced that this is 1938 redux, what countries do you suggest are next on the chopping block? Obviously Czechoslovakia and Poland were just the beginning for Godwin's dictator, and you can't argue that the Low Countries, Norway, Denmark, France, North Africa, and Russia had all been part of the German Empire prior to its dissolution.

As for the Russian dictator.... If you think he stops at Ukraine, I have 75 Brooklyn bridges in the Bronx to sell you.

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The interesting poll in Crimea would be three choices: autonomous state in Ukraine, autonomous state in Russia, or full independence.

An "independent" state of Crimea would be such a puppet joke, it shouldn't be considered.

In addition, "independent Crimea" would mean a million displaced persons: the local economy will simply not be able to support much more than half the current population (no water, no tourists). It only makes sense as part of a bigger project.

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Not actually suggesting we do it but maybe the US and NATO should send some troops into Georgia at their request to take back the lands that Russia illegally took from them?

At least, have big troop concentrations on the LOC. Both in Georgia and in Moldova. Do not cross the lines, for the moment - do so only if Russians move into mainland Ukraine. But make sure that the Russians have to think about defending those.

I would also do the same in the Far East with the "Northern Territories": make the Japanese concentrate a lot on Hokkaido, run big war games simulating landings on some islands. Basically, make the Russians disperse troops all over the country, in expectation that they MAY be attacked.

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I hope, the warmongering in this thread is not representative for anyone. It would be worse than the current Russian 19th century imperialist acting that is going on.

Appeasement is a lot more dangerous: if your objective is truly to avoid the war.

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Putin is no Hitler, he doesn't look for a lebensraum to conquer.

Correct. But the "Heim ins Reich" rhetoric still sounds unpleasantly familiar.

At the moment, it seems Putin has been sending a clear signal to the West to stop ignoring legitimate Russian interests. The form is obviously inappropriate, and the occasion anything but well chosen. Backing up a corrupt crook like Yanukovich hasn't really been helpful to ensure Ukraine will pay their gas bill, while the military intervention may actually lead to more instead of less discrimination of Russian-speakers in Ukraine and other countries. But Putin's statements today have made me a little more optimistic that ultimately a diplomatic solution can be found.

Reread the pre-war German statements, before you become too optimistic.

And then compare your own to those of Chamberlain.

Legitimate grievances be freaked... Germany's were a lot more legitimate.

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Not actually suggesting we do it but maybe the US and NATO should send some troops into Georgia at their request to take back the lands that Russia illegally took from them?

At least, have big troop concentrations on the LOC. Both in Georgia and in Moldova. Do not cross the lines, for the moment - do so only if Russians move into mainland Ukraine. But make sure that the Russians have to think about defending those.

I would also do the same in the Far East with the "Northern Territories": make the Japanese concentrate a lot on Hokkaido, run big war games simulating landings on some islands. Basically, make the Russians disperse troops all over the country, in expectation that they MAY be attacked.

This is not Risk. Get real.

I am real. I know none of this will be done. This is why I am very pessimistic about the future. I guess, I should travel more around Europe in the next few years, while it still exists.

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Want to get China on our side? Promise them all of Siberia if they would side with us against Russia if it were to actually come to anything. If it was the US/Europe/China/Japan agianst Russia they would probably be more likely to back down.

Offer to just let Russia keep Crimea, most of the citizens want it and allow the ones that don't to leave in peace, but Russia shouldn't be allowed to take half the country or more, which is what they want.

Today Crimea, tomorrow Berlin. Just remember that.

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Not actually suggesting we do it but maybe the US and NATO should send some troops into Georgia at their request to take back the lands that Russia illegally took from them?

Despite that in 2008 Georgia was the agressor and the land was not controlled by Georgian government, anyway.

A lot of it (half the Southern Ossetia and the Kodori gorge in Abkhazia) was Georgian populated and Georgian controlled before 2008. The inconvenient fact is that the Georgian population was half massacred and half expelled at the time (we might as well forget that before the Soviet break up there had been about 2.5 times as many Georgians as the Abkhaz in Abkhazia - they had been expelled long ago, with the help of different Russian troops).  In any case, Georgians did not do exceptionally badly: most Ossetians also had to leave from under the Russian protection: the country is not suitable for human habitation at this point. Have you seen recent reports from the area? From the Soviet 100 thousand residents of SO, or pre-2008 70 thousand, the population is now down to somewhere between 20 and 40 thousand. Abkhazia is only marginally better. And, in a warning to Crimea, it was one of the main Soviet resorts.

Anyway, no doubt, in 2020, when 1,000,000 people have been forced to leave the Russian-occupied Crimea, you will be vaguely recalling that the true aggressors were the Ukrainians.

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Anyway, from now on I am on record as an enthusiastic supporter of nuclear proliferation. That is the only thing that can preserve peace at this point.

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Want to get China on our side? Promise them all of Siberia if they would side with us against Russia if it were to actually come to anything. If it was the US/Europe/China/Japan agianst Russia they would probably be more likely to back down.

Offer to just let Russia keep Crimea, most of the citizens want it and allow the ones that don't to leave in peace, but Russia shouldn't be allowed to take half the country or more, which is what they want.

Today Crimea, tomorrow Berlin. Just remember that.

Have you ever heard of this obscure tiny organization called NATO, that Germany is a member of?

Well, all that it means is that rather than occupied, Berlin will be nuked.

I am dead serious. You think NATO will work. NATO has never been tested. By letting Putin get away with murder this time, you make him hungry to, in fact, try it out. And even if it turns out it is serious, it will be too late by the time we find this out: nukes will be falling.

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You need help.

Well, I will not be the one nuked

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You need help.

Well, I will not be the one nuked

I'm an hour and a half away from the nearest Russian target (Philadelphia) if the worst comes.

Good. So you are safe as well Anyway, knowing your views, you, probably, wouldn't mind being the Russian gauleiter in the area