SENATE STANDING COMMITTEE: Gov't Oversight and Reform (Game Reform/PC)

[DemPGH]

So the logic is: In order to create stratospheric levels of participation, levels of participation that blow the roof off the place, we'll abolish cabinet positions, regional executive positions, and lock out regional governments from operating. o_0

Yeah, time to pick up a bottle of Troll-Be-Gone at the local hardware store and ignore this crap.

[Хahar 🤔]

Actually, I have articulated my views on this matter at length, and the President has agreed with said views, but I know that the Vice President has an unconventional method of reading comprehension.

[MaxQue]

Thanks God the Judiciary decided to not take part in that. I wouldn't want the vice-president getting in my meeting to disrupt discussion, throw oil on the fire and insult the witnesses.

Don't even bother to enter Judiciary meetings if you are act this disrespectful towards opposition, Mr. Vice-President. I wouldn't allow it and would rush into the President office to complain towards that rudeness and I hope than Senator Yankee will do the same.

[Napoleon]

Overreaction much?

[MaxQue]

Overreaction much?

Perhaps, but the VP is in overreaction to this crisis since Day 1. We should reach peace and respect, now, instead of throwing oil on fire. I won't let anyone create a new crisis or worsen the social climate in Atlasia, whether it's NM-AM, Labor, Federalists or even the VP. Right now, the only person sprewing insults at its opponents, for no reason is the VP.

I don't see why we should shut up and watch in silence. A Senate audience isn't a place to scream insults at everyone you don't like, even if it's the VP.

[Napoleon]

I'm reading his post again and it doesn't appear to insult anyone. This

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on the other hand, is more insulting IMO than an off the cuff remark about Troll-be-gone.

We could all try to be a bit more civil, sure, I'd include myself in that and I try but sometimes disagreements can get heated- that's natural, that's politics. I don't think these guys have any interest or concern regarding civility though.

Anyway as far as I'm concerned any member of the administration is welcome to speak before the committee at any time and we welcome their input.

[MaxQue]

I'm reading his post again and it doesn't appear to insult anyone. This

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on the other hand, is more insulting IMO than an off the cuff remark about Troll-be-gone.

We could all try to be a bit more civil, sure, I'd include myself in that and I try but sometimes disagreements can get heated- that's natural, that's politics. I don't think these guys have any interest or concern regarding civility though.

Anyway as far as I'm concerned any member of the administration is welcome to speak before the committee at any time and we welcome their input.

I, too, welcome their input, as I would welcome the output of every citizen, but not if they are rude, unrespectful, impolite, insulting or plainly mischaracterizing the testimonies of the witnesses. As far as I know, saying than what the witness is saying is "crap" isn't respectul, in my book.

Yes, Xahar is insulting, too, but as he was answering to another insult, it's understandable, despite being insulting. If I'm insulted, I'm pretty sure I'll answer, too.

If we reach insults, there is no debate anymore, just mud-throwing.

EDIT: And, given I just got news of the lawsuit of an NM-AM member to stuck down the 2 decisions restoring the legitimate Pacific, I also wish to our VP-AG good luck (even if he won't need any, he has enough talent for that) and wants to express my distaste of the behaviour of the NM-AM member who did that. You lost last Pacific election, accept it, that's democracy.

I said I don't like insults, but I prefer them to plain tentatives of going around democracy when the results aren't the wanted ones.

[Хahar 🤔]

The Vice President will receive the respect due to him by his positions when he acts in a manner becoming of said positions.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

So the logic is: In order to create stratospheric levels of participation, levels of participation that blow the roof off the place, we'll abolish cabinet positions, regional executive positions, and lock out regional governments from operating. o_0

Yeah, time to pick up a bottle of Troll-Be-Gone at the local hardware store and ignore this crap.

And you really think that a post like this would help me achieve what I stated in the PM to you just hours prior? Do you really think this will help?

Thanks God the Judiciary decided to not take part in that. I wouldn't want the vice-president getting in my meeting to disrupt discussion, throw oil on the fire and insult the witnesses.

Don't even bother to enter Judiciary meetings if you are act this disrespectful towards opposition, Mr. Vice-President. I wouldn't allow it and would rush into the President office to complain towards that rudeness and I hope than Senator Yankee will do the same.

Maxy, the last I knew no such decision had been made and you had expressed interest in pursuing this matter, with regards to the legal issues. When did that change and why? There is no mention of it in your thread.  The post by the VP was made in reference to the desired reform, not the legality aspect and thus wouldn't have been made in your committee's hearing on the matter, which would have been limited to just those issues. Think Maxy!

If we had seperated the two main issues, we might have gotten someone on both or at least on the reform one. You could then have set the the parameters for the hearing and required desired amount of restrain as you saw fit on this matter. Right now this combined formate has destroyed this.

I would point out that complaining to the President (and Vice President since I sent it to both) was probably what led to this in the first place. Plus the last PM I got from Nix indicated that he is rather pissed off about this whole matter and that predated the VP's comments.

[DemPGH]

Overreaction much?

Perhaps, but the VP is in overreaction to this crisis since Day 1. We should reach peace and respect, now, instead of throwing oil on fire. I won't let anyone create a new crisis or worsen the social climate in Atlasia, whether it's NM-AM, Labor, Federalists or even the VP. Right now, the only person sprewing insults at its opponents, for no reason is the VP.

I don't see why we should shut up and watch in silence. A Senate audience isn't a place to scream insults at everyone you don't like, even if it's the VP.

Yeah, as Gertrude said, Thou "dost protest too much." And no, you don't have to be silent - I would have preferred you participate in the hearing, if that's what it can be called. As it stands, it's just enabling people to continue seeking attention, so you do what you want.

And please. With the bare-knuckled fights I've see in here, give me a break.

Guys, really: Do what you want. Go around in circles. I'm done with this. And there are some cases to turn my attention to later. Have fun.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I'm reading his post again and it doesn't appear to insult anyone. This

You must be logged in to read this quote.

on the other hand, is more insulting IMO than an off the cuff remark about Troll-be-gone.

We could all try to be a bit more civil, sure, I'd include myself in that and I try but sometimes disagreements can get heated- that's natural, that's politics. I don't think these guys have any interest or concern regarding civility though.

Anyway as far as I'm concerned any member of the administration is welcome to speak before the committee at any time and we welcome their input.

Indeed, and it is probably because I PMed them both, that the VP decided to comment thusly. Included in that was my frustration and reluctange on the part of our "guests" to be more responsive and open about their ideas. It appears the VP was far more "frustrated" than I was at the time though. Either way it was yet another unfortunate distraction.

Actually, I have articulated my views on this matter at length, and the President has agreed with said views, but I know that the Vice President has an unconventional method of reading comprehension.

It is not my goal to litigate what exactly Nix had agreed with or not.

It is my hope to find out what you agree with. What are this "views" exactly and what exactly do you want done?

[windjammer]

Well, as you know, I was really hostile toward the NMAM because I thought you, Xahar and Hashemite, were just two trolls. I wanted to put you in jail initially, because Ii was very angry because of Pacific’s destruction.

Now, I think I begin to understand what you have done this. I stay hostile toward you, but I see you differently. In fact, you’re just the rote Armee Fraktion. A group of terrorists, who were really educated, who wanted to change the world because they thought this world wasn’t  perfect. That’s why the became violent and took many hostages,…

I think it’s a good parallel with you. You want to change Atlasia because you think it’s far to be perfect. But what you’re doing, it’s just destruction instead of amelioration. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

So yes, I was wrong you’re not two trolls. You’re probably really intelligent in the reality, particularly Xahar who seems to be extremely strategical and calculating (it’s a compliment).

So, I hope you’re not completely narrow-minded like the rote Armee fraction and I hope you will understand that what you’re doing is wrong and should be ameliorated.

Well, I suppose I will regret soon to have said good things about you haha .

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I, too, welcome their input, as I would welcome the output of every citizen, but not if they are rude, unrespectful, impolite, insulting or plainly mischaracterizing the testimonies of the witnesses. As far as I know, saying than what the witness is saying is "crap" isn't respectul, in my book.

I think we have a deficit of structure here. In some ways that was intentional so that Chairman wouldn't be cosntrained and could get stuff done but on the flip side there is no blue print for "this is how you do a hearing" to follow. I think we started off right having set periods, but that broke down, primarily because they existed firmest in my head and less so amongst all those who were participating in this one way or the other (though I did post about it, brain penetration of others wasn't acheived).

[Hash]

If you want to get people to listen then quit beating up on strawmen and engage.

The reason you feel like no one is listening to you, is because a majority either firmly or at least to some extent thing you are detached from the real course of things. The constant use of strawmen (most of which are mischaracterizations and falsehoods), the attacking of opponents, and demeaning of proposals that fall short of your perfect outcome, are the exact reasons why nothing is getting done, especailly in the realm of what you want. As people mostly on the left, it is hard to believe you don't see the downsides of a Reaganist "Us vs Them" mentality. For comparison you have copied the exact political strategy used by enviromental movement on global warming, with the same predictable results.

Yet another reason why your motives are suspect and many think you want destruction instead of reform.   

I didn't seek to bring you up here to put you on trial. I did it to investigate some areas of concern and to have a nice civil discussion about reform. The very first question asked by a member of this committee concerned a potential area of concern about the number of offices in the game and bares directly on any proposal to consolidate or eliminate the regions, which has been conveniently ignored to facilitate more strawmen.

Not all those who oppose us are 'reactionaries' and I have no interest in 'us vs. them' horsesh**t; plenty of people at least sympathize with our aims. Furthermore, I fully understand, recognize and respect why certain individuals may disagree (quite strongly) with us. However, you cannot expect us to respect those who incessantly brand us as 'trolls' or 'terrorists' and dismiss our legitimate political opinions as 'trolling'. To repeat what Xahar said, I will respect the VPAG when he acts in a manner becoming of the offices he holds and represents. We hold perfectly legitimate political opinions, even if one may disagree with the means we use to achieve them. The President himself, as has been noted previously, has, on paper at least, agreed with some of our views. However, certain people have shown no interest in engaging with us, preferring to throw us in fantasyjail, resort to name calling (trolls, terrorists etc) and - at worst - seek to silence us. Until such people treat our views with respect, I will keep callings thing as they are.

The proposals to eliminate/consolidate certain regions have been constant for years at this point, and they come up every now and again and invariably tend to go away as soon as they've come. I am not hostile to this solution, unless consolidation is compensated by just adding more elected offices to the mess. However, I feel as if there is very little chance of such a solution coming to pass.

A group of terrorists, who were really educated, who wanted to change the world because they thought this world wasn’t  perfect.

We're not terrorists, and I take offense at being called a "terrorist" (even moreso than being called a 'troll').

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Hash:
No one here is asking you to do anything with regards your oponents. My point was to get you to understand the perspective of the critiques you are receiving and how your actions have actually hampered not helped the situation. It was the same approach I took with Dereich a few days ago.

What is your standard for a reactionary then? For an obstructionist?

What does this consolidation plan have to look like to be acceptable to you?

[Napoleon]

What problem were you trying to solve and how was your solution supposed to be an improvement?

Dead region, delegation of power to a working legislature.

How does that solve a problem? It would appear that's just shoving a problem on to someone else without asking if they were willing to take care of it. That's beyond rude.

Answer the quesrion. How was that supposed to solve a problem?

[Хahar 🤔]

I'd just like to point this quote out, since it seems like our dear Vice President has some sort of messianic complex wherein he sees himself blowing his horn and scattering evildoers. I think this provides welcome insight into the motivations of the foremost ideologue of this witch hunt.

I mean, I fought and won that battle decisively while any number of folks headed for the hills, but it seems I'm the aggressor, the rude one, etc. So, we'll see. Maybe I was wrong. Maybe they want it back.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I am not interested in the Vice President's actions being psycho-analyzed, Xahar.

I would point out that the AG has not been brought up here through an official procedure, but you have and thus I would recommend concerning yourself less with the AG's actions and more with responding the numerous questions directed at you.

[Хahar 🤔]

Post all the questions I am apparently yet to answer and I will answer the ones I like in the way that I like.

[Hash]

Hash:
No one here is asking you to do anything with regards your oponents. My point was to get you to understand the perspective of the critiques you are receiving and how your actions have actually hampered not helped the situation. It was the same approach I took with Dereich a few days ago.

I understand the criticism received from certain reasonable people, because I don't have reading comprehension issues. That being said, a lot of the criticism, especially as of late, has come in the form of meaningless babble or personal attacks. Additionally, the idea that our actions have hampered the situation is entirely subjective and one which I reject. The meaningless bureaucratic horsesh**t, the ostensible 'reformists' teeny teeny symbolic reforms and the horrible 'messianic' judicial activism from the AG is what has 'hampered' whatever the situation is.

[TNF]

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Give me a break. This kind of trollish behavior on your part and on the part of all the other defenders of the status quo is the reason why something like Operation Rimjob was able to succeed in the first place. Archaic, legalistic Senate procedure that bores everyone half-to-death discourages activity, something compounded by the moribund regional system. If this Senate Committee is to be more than an Un-Atlasian Activities Committee, a witchhunt against the National Movement, it's going to have to step up it's game and offer solutions, not just airy, C-SPAN-esque rhetoric.

[Ban my account ffs!]

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Give me a break. This kind of trollish behavior on your part and on the part of all the other defenders of the status quo is the reason why something like Operation Rimjob was able to succeed in the first place. Archaic, legalistic Senate procedure that bores everyone half-to-death discourages activity, something compounded by the moribund regional system. If this Senate Committee is to be more than an Un-Atlasian Activities Committee, a witchhunt against the National Movement, it's going to have to step up it's game and offer solutions, not just airy, C-SPAN-esque rhetoric.

This times a bajillion.

[Bacon King]

Perjury is a crime, as is contempt of congress. I will use both of them if given a reason to do so.

Please provide the statutory authorization that makes either of these things a crime.

- a concerned citizen

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

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Give me a break. This kind of trollish behavior on your part and on the part of all the other defenders of the status quo is the reason why something like Operation Rimjob was able to succeed in the first place. Archaic, legalistic Senate procedure that bores everyone half-to-death discourages activity, something compounded by the moribund regional system. If this Senate Committee is to be more than an Un-Atlasian Activities Committee, a witchhunt against the National Movement, it's going to have to step up it's game and offer solutions, not just airy, C-SPAN-esque rhetoric.

ALL I WANT IS THEIR GOD DAMN PLAN!!! How many more ing times do I have say it.

Do you live on some other planet TNF? I mean really:

I, too, welcome their input, as I would welcome the output of every citizen, but not if they are rude, unrespectful, impolite, insulting or plainly mischaracterizing the testimonies of the witnesses. As far as I know, saying than what the witness is saying is "crap" isn't respectul, in my book.

I think we have a deficit of structure here. In some ways that was intentional so that Chairman wouldn't be cosntrained and could get stuff done but on the flip side there is no blue print for "this is how you do a hearing" to follow. I think we started off right having set periods, but that broke down, primarily because they existed firmest in my head and less so amongst all those who were participating in this one way or the other (though I did post about it, brain penetration of others wasn't acheived).

There are no set procedures for a committee save for regulating the membership, the chairman, and ability to pursue contempt. Other than that it is a pretty much free reign. How the hell else can it be freed up beyond that? It is almost as if you skimmed it for the keyword to then launch a rant about procedures, that doesn't comport with reality here.

What the hell do you think I have been trying to do here TNF? Really? You think I enjoy going round and round in circles with these people. I wanted to get their approach, their plan laid out. Every step of the way there is been one thing or another that has gotten in my damn way. I set periods in the hopes that those called with have a chance to speak their piece, the VP jumped the gun. I asked for assistance from the administration in the hopes that Nix or even the VP could convince some people to loosen up and offer ideas, but the VP's post a few hours later made it worse. I have already bitched the VP out and others for undermining this effort long before the posts in question were made, there isn't anything I can say in here that wasn't said via PM again more or less already. At the end of the day it is an open thread and people are gonna post what they want to post. Since then though they have all been convenient excusses to throw around attacks in both directions and beat down strawmen, that once again figments.

We tried to discuss reform last time and it went nowhere. We started out about how to make consolidation work, no one could agree on anyone thing, and finally my last question wasn't responded to and there it ended until this Senate. I am trying to do something different, that hasn't been done before and everyone and everyone just bitches, complains, demands, and don't think to give a damn about what they are actually saying, what they are actually complaining about, or whether or not it even meshes with the reality of who is seeking what here and why or more less whether they know what the hell they are talkign about procedurally.  This is the freest, most loosely bound structure in which to do this. If it cannot be done here, I don't see how it gets done anywhere, more or less under the structure of a debate on the floor.

Regions are not the primary problem here. It is the number of offices and the lack of diversity. Funny thing is that being serious is so horrible, until it comes time for you guys to vote and then winning becomes a various serious matter for you guys on the left in this game. It is also from the unwillingness of policy based accountability because there is no tangible connection between the policies, the impact and the voters save for the data posted by the Game Moderation team. If politicians were actually held accountable for that stuff, elections would actually be more then red avatar versus blue and yellow avatar. That problem will exist under any structure. The fact that we have one hundred plus inactives won't change because we reduce the number of offices either and if the reductions are severe enough, it might increase. I here it all the time on the right, I am hearing it as it is. Though I am sure the model of a small population with no diversity has been a proven success over and a over again, oh wait...

Abolishing the regions will turn Atlasia into the Pacific.

This times a bajillion.

Do you just jump in to a thread to agree with total nonesense as a matter of regular course?

Especially when the anti-Regionalist movement share so many parrallels with another left-wing movement you like to critique and expose on a regular basis. From the flawed connections between the alleged culprit and the problems at hand, the horrendous solutions to those problems and the misguided and self-defeating political stategy.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Post all the questions I am apparently yet to answer and I will answer the ones I like in the way that I like.

I won't bother to.

Just post what your plan is and what is your minimum criteria in a compromise package.