White Girl Bill (Failed)

[Psychic Octopus]

Sorry Winston, I have to oppose.

[tmthforu94]

For citizens to access this medication from a pharmacy, would they need a doctor's prescription?

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

I can't get behind legalizing dangerous, addictive drugs like meth, cocaine and all their counterparts. Alcohol may be just as dangerous with the right amounts, but you can have a beer here and there and not become dependent on it, but with other drugs such as those listed, one hit and you can't live without it. I would know. I had a friend who tried coke once and became an addict before going through rehab. I can't support this under any circumstances.

Would you support the bill if it were to be amended to remove the "harder" substances?

That's a possibility - depending on which harder substances are removed.

I can't get behind legalizing dangerous, addictive drugs like meth, cocaine and all their counterparts. Alcohol may be just as dangerous with the right amounts, but you can have a beer here and there and not become dependent on it, but with other drugs such as those listed, one hit and you can't live without it. I would know. I had a friend who tried coke once and became an addict before going through rehab. I can't support this under any circumstances.

But would you rather he had gone to prison instead of rehab? There is a desperate need for therapy rather than punishment. What's more, part of these drugs appeal is their illegality. After legalisation, drug usage rates in Portugal dropped.

Decriminalization is one thing - selling all these drugs on the open market is quite another. Also, comparing us to Portugal is irrelevant. Atlasia is not Portugal. Our demographics are not that of Portugal. We have no idea how it would turn out.

I oppose this bill. I'm against the legalisation of drugs.

I want to help the drug addicts. That means they should be provided by the state with the respective drugs. That would reduce crime and give them a human perspective.

The comparison with alcohol is not correct. Alcohol isn't very good, but it's a part of our culture since thousands of years, drugs don't.

Alcohol is far more dangerous to society than these drugs are - alcohol encourages violence against other people. Cocaine does not.

That is quite possibly the silliest thing I've heard on the Senate floor thus far in my time here.

I oppose this bill. I'm against the legalisation of drugs.

I want to help the drug addicts. That means they should be provided by the state with the respective drugs. That would reduce crime and give them a human perspective.

The comparison with alcohol is not correct. Alcohol isn't very good, but it's a part of our culture since thousands of years, drugs don't.

Alcohol is far more dangerous to society than these drugs are - alcohol encourages violence against other people. Cocaine does not.

Not correct. Both drugs do, actually.

That said, I'm not saying how I'll vote on this, but I would note to stated opponents like NCY and Hans that Winston pointing out alcohol is legal and regulated and legal despite being highly destructive may be very compelling to some. I think it behooves you to argue specifically how and why harder drugs like these are supposedly so much more addictive and destructive than alcohol that they must be outlawed while alcohol is available at the corner gas station. And IMHO the mere fact alcohol has a much older pedigree of being socially acceptable means little in terms of defining a drug's actual addictive and destructive properties.

IIRC, last time I checked many years ago that when the numbers of hard drug users and overdose deaths were compared to alcohol, even the most conservative estimates showed alcohol to be much more deadly (even without DUI fatalities).

Perhaps I am in the wrong, but I believe these harder drugs are far more destructive and addictive than alcohol or marijuana in smaller doses. Someone can have a beer or a joint and not become reliant or experience withdrawals, while someone who does cocaine here and there will become highly addicted to the substance in a short time. That is one of the reasons I oppose their legalization, but would support marijuana and such, but oppose these. It just seems reckless to allow people to easily purchase these products over the counter when the harm they do to someone in smaller doses far outweighs the harm alcohol can do.

[k-onmmunist]

What do you mean we aren't Portugal? I know that, I'm just saying that as another Western country, it provides a good example.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

What do you mean we aren't Portugal? I know that, I'm just saying that as another Western country, it provides a good example.

I'm just saying that one size does not fit all - just like when people argue that lowering the drinking age in the US will yield the same results as it did in France, England, etc... Obviously we could, but the outcome may be particularly bad, especially when you're talking about drugs as dangerous as those we are talking about legalizing.

[Fritz]

I oppose this.

The level of harm done must be taken into consideration.  Marijuana is perhaps the most benign of intoxicating substances, both in terms of its addictive qualities and the damage done to the user.  One cannot die from a pot overdose.  I am happy that this drug is legal in Atlasia.  Alcohol is more dangerous, it can be physically addictive, and it is possible (though rare) to die from overdose.  Cocaine and methamphetamine are both highly addictive substances which can rather easily be overdosed.  Badger mentioned that alcohol causes more harm- I believe that is because its use is more widespread due to its legality, and not because it is more harmful.  If we take the irresponsible step of legalising these dangerous substances, those statistics will surely change.

[Badger]

I oppose this.

The level of harm done must be taken into consideration.  Marijuana is perhaps the most benign of intoxicating substances, both in terms of its addictive qualities and the damage done to the user.  One cannot die from a pot overdose.  I am happy that this drug is legal in Atlasia.  Alcohol is more dangerous, it can be physically addictive, and it is possible (though rare) to die from overdose.  Cocaine and methamphetamine are both highly addictive substances which can rather easily be overdosed.  Badger mentioned that alcohol causes more harm- I believe that is because its use is more widespread due to its legality, and not because it is more harmful.  If we take the irresponsible step of legalising these dangerous substances, those statistics will surely change.

Actually, Fritz, the statistics I looked at (again, a long time ago) indicated that on a per capita/user rate--not merely overall numbers--the rate of lethal overdoses for alcohol were significantly higher than those for cocaine and heroin. Surprising I admit, but nonetheless.....

[Bacon King]

I oppose this.

The level of harm done must be taken into consideration.  Marijuana is perhaps the most benign of intoxicating substances, both in terms of its addictive qualities and the damage done to the user.  One cannot die from a pot overdose.  I am happy that this drug is legal in Atlasia.  Alcohol is more dangerous, it can be physically addictive, and it is possible (though rare) to die from overdose.  Cocaine and methamphetamine are both highly addictive substances which can rather easily be overdosed.  Badger mentioned that alcohol causes more harm- I believe that is because its use is more widespread due to its legality, and not because it is more harmful.  If we take the irresponsible step of legalising these dangerous substances, those statistics will surely change.

Actually, Fritz, the statistics I looked at (again, a long time ago) indicated that on a per capita/user rate--not merely overall numbers--the rate of lethal overdoses for alcohol were significantly higher than those for cocaine and heroin. Surprising I admit, but nonetheless.....

Interesting fact.

Just playing devil's advocate here, but I'd just like to point out that this is even in spite of the fact that alcohol has proper dosing and labeling while illegal substances don't. Presumably if cocaine and heroin were subjected to proper FDA/SOIA regulation, alcohol would be even less safer in comparison.

[k-onmmunist]

Yeah, this is true. Alcohol will always be far more of a social cost than cocaine, simply because of how accepted it is in Western society and how easy access is. This would at least make sure it can only be sold at pharmacies.

[Fritz]

I oppose this.

The level of harm done must be taken into consideration.  Marijuana is perhaps the most benign of intoxicating substances, both in terms of its addictive qualities and the damage done to the user.  One cannot die from a pot overdose.  I am happy that this drug is legal in Atlasia.  Alcohol is more dangerous, it can be physically addictive, and it is possible (though rare) to die from overdose.  Cocaine and methamphetamine are both highly addictive substances which can rather easily be overdosed.  Badger mentioned that alcohol causes more harm- I believe that is because its use is more widespread due to its legality, and not because it is more harmful.  If we take the irresponsible step of legalising these dangerous substances, those statistics will surely change.

Actually, Fritz, the statistics I looked at (again, a long time ago) indicated that on a per capita/user rate--not merely overall numbers--the rate of lethal overdoses for alcohol were significantly higher than those for cocaine and heroin. Surprising I admit, but nonetheless.....

I don't believe it.  Please cite your sources.

[Badger]

I oppose this.

The level of harm done must be taken into consideration.  Marijuana is perhaps the most benign of intoxicating substances, both in terms of its addictive qualities and the damage done to the user.  One cannot die from a pot overdose.  I am happy that this drug is legal in Atlasia.  Alcohol is more dangerous, it can be physically addictive, and it is possible (though rare) to die from overdose.  Cocaine and methamphetamine are both highly addictive substances which can rather easily be overdosed.  Badger mentioned that alcohol causes more harm- I believe that is because its use is more widespread due to its legality, and not because it is more harmful.  If we take the irresponsible step of legalising these dangerous substances, those statistics will surely change.

Actually, Fritz, the statistics I looked at (again, a long time ago) indicated that on a per capita/user rate--not merely overall numbers--the rate of lethal overdoses for alcohol were significantly higher than those for cocaine and heroin. Surprising I admit, but nonetheless.....

I don't believe it.  Please cite your sources.

1987 statistics  (I told you these were old, but I doubt the numbers and ratios have changed markedly since then) from the National Institute on Drug Abuse and Bureau of Mortality Statistics show there were some 3800 to 5200 deaths from illegal drug use in the US, including suicides. None of these deaths occurred from marijuana of course.  125,000 people died as a direct result of alcohol use, not counting highway fatalities or homicides. NIDA surveys from that year approximated 18 million users of illegal drugs other than marijuana, and 113 million users of alcohol. (These statistics were cited by an opponent of drug legalization in 1988 congressional hearings on the subject.)

This averages out to less than one drug overdose for every 3500 drug users (again, not including marijuana) compared to one such death for every 900 drinkers. By comparison, prescription and over the counter medication is estimated to have caused 14-27 thousand deaths that year (including suicides and mixing the substances with alcohol). Even simple Aspirin caused anywhere from 180-1,000 deaths, including suicides.

And no, don't you dare ask me for a link to such old school research.

[Bacon King]

Does anyone have an amendment to offer before this bill is put up to a final vote?

[Bacon King]

This bill is now at a final vote. Please vote aye, nay, or abstain.

[Bacon King]

Final bill:

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[Bacon King]

Very hesitant aye.

Keep in mind the bill doesn't force any pharmacy to carry these substances, and pharmacies that do would still be allowed to turn an abuser away (just like they're allowed IRL to turn a customer down who's buying out half their stock of Robitussin or something). These preventative measures seem like they would mitigate the bad aspects of legalization enough to make the good things worth it: cutting away organized crime's primary profit stream, allowing the substances to be regulated and labelled to prevent accidental deaths, and ending the attitude that victimless crime should be so brutally punished. In addition, the billions of dollars in new tax revenue is a nice benefit as well.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

Nay

[Hans-im-Glück]

NAY

[tmthforu94]

Nay
At the end of the day, while I think personal decisions are important, I am extremely wary of legalizing dangerous and deadly drugs, and must vote this way.

[k-onmmunist]

Aye

[bgwah]

Aye

[Mint]

Aye.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Nay

[Fritz]

Nay

[Badger]

If this were RL in Ohio I'd vote nay, but in Atlasia:

Abstain.

[Bacon King]

Senators in favor: Bacon King, Winston Disreali, bgwah, Mint (4)
Senators opposed: AHDuke, Hans-im-Glück, Tmthforu94, North Carolina Yankee, Fritz (5)
Senators abstaining (with vote): Badger (1)

This bill has enough votes to fail. Senators have 24 hours to change their votes.