SENATE BILL: Emergency Resolution to Authorize Force in Iraq (Withdrawn)

[President Tyrion]

The Senate has the power to Declare War, not to Authorize Force. I don't think there's anything for the Senate to do here. If the President wants to increase combat operations in Iraq, it is going to have to be a top down policy.

[President Tyrion]

Presumably he's talking about the terrorists, but it seems like we'd be throwing the baby out with the bathwater to turn all of Iraq into "a sheet of glass".

The Senate has the power to Declare War, not to Authorize Force. I don't think there's anything for the Senate to do here. If the President wants to increase combat operations in Iraq, it is going to have to be a top down policy.

Why wouldn't the Senate have the power to authorize force?

This is the functional equivalent of a declaration of war on ISIS.

Yes, but ISIS isn't a sovereign nation. And I'm sure as hell not going to be on board with recognizing the sovereignty of a terrorist group so we can drone them to death. I mean, we can do the droning, but preferably without the recognizing.

With that said, we need to be very careful what we do here. Drone strikes are imperfect creatures, after all, and it's a guarantee that a widespread drone program will result in innocent lives lost. It's an extreme risk, and we, as a nation, need to understand that before we give Mr. President implicit or explicit authorization to strike.

[President Tyrion]

I guess what needs to be established is, what will these airstrikes accomplish...in order to get the Senate behind this. What are our goals here?

I, like many others, fear getting back into a war in Iraq when I really believe that letting them have a civil war is probably necessary before they stabilize, whether as a democracy or under another dictator, which is more their speed, but we need to make sure they don't fall to a terrorist group who will just set up a training base in Iraq to launch future attacks against the west. That's the only reason I'd want to get involved in the first place, and that happening seems like a real possibility.

I don't think just "letting them" have a civil war is a reasonable solution.

Who wins civil wars? The best, most powerful military, mostly due to international backing. I'm not going to back away and let every other country in the world determine Iraq's fate, when there's no evidence that such a process always ensures the best outcome.

[President Tyrion]

So you're endorsing us getting involved then, dear Tyrion?

What we must do here is look out for what is in atlasia's best interest, not just now but in the future.

Of course, this won't be my decision to make. I'm outta here Friday at noon.

I'm not sure if people have noticed, but I'm quite hawkish. I'm not interventionist, per se, but I do agree that we should consider the best interests of Atlasia.

[President Tyrion]

What you recommend then, Tyrion?

Well, I feel encouraged at seeing Tyrion agreeing in some regards to this approach. I wonder if by setting more specific goals (I admit mine are vague in comparison to what we want to do) we could get the support we need from a majority of Senators.

Sorry, didn't see this until now.

If drone strikes are what's necessary (and I wouldn't be able to say for certain, but I'm not a huge fan of them in theory), then the President can do what he likes, anyway. He doesn't need our permission.

I'm totally fine with making explicit what the President is doing, but I'm not sure what our role (meaning the Senate's role) in it would be. As I see it, we can lay sanctions, we can declare war, but we can't really legislate a quasi-war with a terrorist group, at least from the perspective of drone strikes.

I understand that ISIS is...undesireable, but I'm not particularly sure I have a concrete solution at this time.

[President Tyrion]

Well, this conversation has taken a somewhat bizarre but not altogether unexpected turn.

The President is Commander-In-Chief, which is the power I referenced obliquely when I mentioned he could authorize drone strikes on his own, because drone strikes are not a declaration of war. This isn't a game of "Civilization"; there aren't clean rules as to what constitutes war and what doesn't. The fact of the matter is that the Constitution is vague, and the Senate can approve military activity and it might happen, and the Senate can fail to approve military activity, and it STILL might happen, absent a declaration of war.

[President Tyrion]

I think the best way out of this is either an Amendment or court case.

What wording would you prefer in clause 18, Deus?

Eh...you're probably right that it doesn't matter what the bill is titled. What concerns me is that the title will result in people claiming that this isn't a declaration of war (as some have already done in this thread), even though that's explicitly what it is.

Obviously a bill stating that the Senate approves a declaration of war is a declaration of war.