Ukraine Crisis

[Tetro Kornbluth]

OFF TOPIC: This thread has so far added at least two people onto my ignore list. Please, I like to think of myself as kind. I don't want to add more.

[Mr. Morden]

OFF TOPIC: This thread has so far added at least two people onto my ignore list. Please, I like to think of myself as kind. I don't want to add more.

If only Obama's threats had been as tough as this, Putin wouldn't have invaded.

[All Along The Watchtower]

OFF TOPIC: This thread has so far added at least two people onto my ignore list. Please, I like to think of myself as kind. I don't want to add more.

If only Obama's threats had been as tough as this, Putin wouldn't have invaded.

You mean if only Obama had added Putin to his ignore list?

[RogueBeaver]

Ukrainian unit overrun at Belbek airport.

[Lincoln Republican]

It's times like this we need John McCain in the White House, without Palin as VP of course.

[Famous Mortimer]

It's times like this we need John McCain in the White House, without Palin as VP of course.

You want WWIII?

If you don't want WWIII, what do you imagin McCain would actually do?

[Lincoln Republican]

It's times like this we need John McCain in the White House, without Palin as VP of course.

You want WWIII?

If you don't want WWIII, what do you imagin McCain would actually do?

Putin and the Russians would take McCain more seriously than they ever would Obama.

McCain would take a much firmer stance and wouldn't let the Russian dictator push him around.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

It's times like this we need John McCain in the White House, without Palin as VP of course.

You want WWIII?

If you don't want WWIII, what do you imagin McCain would actually do?

Putin and the Russians would take McCain more seriously than they ever would Obama.

McCain would take a much firmer stance and wouldn't let the Russian dictator push him around.

But what, specifically, do you think McCain would be able to do?

[Famous Mortimer]

It's times like this we need John McCain in the White House, without Palin as VP of course.

You want WWIII?

If you don't want WWIII, what do you imagin McCain would actually do?

Putin and the Russians would take McCain more seriously than they ever would Obama.

McCain would take a much firmer stance and wouldn't let the Russian dictator push him around.

That's not a serious answer. "Because McCain is good and Obama is bad!"

What would McCain do policy-wise to make the Russians take him seriously?

What would he do policy-wise to make sure Putin didn't push him around?

Again, try not to include policies that would cause WWIII.

[Lincoln Republican]

Read this article

http://news.yahoo.com/mccain-punish-putin-000600943--politics.html

[Famous Mortimer]

Haha. Restart missile defense. Because flushing a bunch of our own money down the toilet will really show those Russians.

[ag]

It's times like this we need John McCain in the White House, without Palin as VP of course.

You want WWIII?

If you don't want WWIII, what do you imagin McCain would actually do?

Well, if somebody does not want WWIII what s/he should do is

1. Immediately stop all negotiations with the Russians on all matters not having to do with the withdrawal from Ukraine. No contacts whatsoever on any matters - however minor or innocuous. The non-essential personnel at the embassy (and families) should be removed ASAP and in a very demonstrative fashion, US citizens advised to avoid traveling to Russia (and those resident there, advised to leave). Consulates outside of Moscow should be closed. Restrict issuance of US visas to the holders of the Russian diplomatic and service passports to the Consular Sections of the US embassies in Kiev and Tbilisi (continue stamping the visas into the regular passports in Moscow, to the extent that the reduced consular representation makes it possible).  Russians should be forced to sharply reduce their embassy staff and close their consulates as well. Encourage the allies to take similar diplomatic measures.

2. Immediately impose painful economic sanctions on Russian elites. The Magnitsky list should be expanded to include a few thousand people, at least (including the families of all the Russian MPs who voted to authorize the use of force in Ukraine). Put under the sanction regime all major Russian public and semi-public companies (including the likes of Gazprom). All financial transactions between US and Russia should be put under scrutiny. Russia should be put under notice that unless all troops are removed ASAP, all Russian assets in the US will be confiscated and used to finance the Ukrainian government (any attempt to preemptively remove such assets at this point should be summarily blocked).  Impose a special tariff on all Russian exports and imports to be dedicated to financing of the Ukrainian government.  Restrict the use of the US  airspace to all Russian air traffic.

3. Urgently remove all the restrictions on oil exports from the US. Guarantee, as much as possible, to the Europeans that their energy needs will be taken care of no matter what happens, as long as they join with the sanctions regime. Especially encourage the Turks to join in (they should not be too hard a sell - they are worried). Stress, that Turkish government will get the full support of the US in suspending the action of the Montreux convention on the Straights navigation: Bosporus has to be closed off ASAP. Lithuanians and Poles should be given guarantees of full support in closing the land transit to Kaliningrad.

4. Resume, very publically, the negotiations with the European allies on missile protection systems.  Make it clear that this is done in response to the new situation.

5. Start, as soon as practicable, major war exercises with the NATO partners in the region - both around the Black Sea and in the Baltics (as practicably close to St. Petersburg as possible). Reinforce NATO garrisons in Poland, the Baltics and in Norway. Negotiate with the Ukrainian government a few bases inside Ukraine (in friendly, pro-Western areas - but this would not only be Lviv, but also Sumy and Chernihiv, right on the Russian border). 

6. Another major war exercise should be conducted with the Japanese, around the Northern coast of Hokkaido. Support should be hinted to the Japanese claim on the Northern Territories. If Georgians and Turks agree, have the Turkish troops take positions on the LOCs near South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Have Moldovans and Romanians start very public negotiations about establishing Romanian bases near Transnistria.

7. At the same time, US diplomats should be rushed to Central Asia and other ex-Soviet states, offering guarantees of protection against the Russian invasion. Those visits should be very public - give them as much media coverage as possible, have Kerry himself go to Astana. The Kyrgyzstan airbase should be reinforced, if the Kyrgyz government allows (make it very hard for them not to allow).

If all this is done in rapid succession and decisively, there is still some chance of avoiding WWIII.

[Lincoln Republican]

Haha. Restart missile defense. Because flushing a bunch of our own money down the toilet will really show those Russians.

He does some good proposals however.

[ag]

It's times like this we need John McCain in the White House, without Palin as VP of course.

You want WWIII?

If you don't want WWIII, what do you imagin McCain would actually do?

Putin and the Russians would take McCain more seriously than they ever would Obama.

McCain would take a much firmer stance and wouldn't let the Russian dictator push him around.

Again, try not to include policies that would cause WWIII.

The only policy that would lead to WWIII is appeasement. Do not appease.

[ag]

Ah, and there is one more thing that should be done, though it is out of the hands of the US government. Put pressure to have Russian sportsmen restricted from international competition. In particular, what would be very effective, is expelling Russia from the UEFA - right now, before the World Cup (while FIFA as a whole might resist, UEFA should be an easier sell - there are quite a few federations there, which are going to be very sympathetic). Canceling the Russian World Cup in four years time would be great as well - if it could be done (make it clear to the FIFA bureaucrats that otherwise there would be a major boycott).

But here US government could only exert pressure, not act by itself.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

It's times like this we need John McCain in the White House, without Palin as VP of course.

Yes, those long drawn out wars in both Iraq and Iran fighting people who aren't allied with Putin would come in handy here. Putin will be just thinking "One of those two, or the actual Afghanistan has to be their Afghanistan. Morons."

[Lincoln Republican]

It's times like this we need John McCain in the White House, without Palin as VP of course.

Yes, those long drawn out wars in both Iraq and Iran fighting people who aren't allied with Putin would come in handy here. Putin will be just thinking "One of those two, or the actual Afghanistan has to be their Afghanistan. Morons."

At no point does McCain call for military intervention, in fact

"McCain stresses that there is no U.S. military option for responding to Russian aggression in Ukraine, nor should there be. NATO response is not a viable option, and the Ukrainians can’t fight the Russians on their own, he said."

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

It's times like this we need John McCain in the White House, without Palin as VP of course.

Yes, those long drawn out wars in both Iraq and Iran fighting people who aren't allied with Putin would come in handy here. Putin will be just thinking "One of those two, or the actual Afghanistan has to be their Afghanistan. Morons."

At no point does McCain call for military intervention, in fact

"McCain stresses that there is no U.S. military option for responding to Russian aggression in Ukraine, nor should there be. NATO response is not a viable option, and the Ukrainians can’t fight the Russians on their own, he said."

I was referencing his "Bomb bomb bomb Iran" comment.
Oh yeah, we'd be fighting a 4th war with Syria, too.

[Peeperkorn]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/03/world/europe/pressure-rising-as-obama-works-to-rein-in-russia.html

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Told you.

[Clarko95 📚💰📈]

Ah, and there is one more thing that should be done, though it is out of the hands of the US government. Put pressure to have Russian sportsmen restricted from international competition. In particular, what would be very effective, is expelling Russia from the UEFA - right now, before the World Cup (while FIFA as a whole might resist, UEFA should be an easier sell - there are quite a few federations there, which are going to be very sympathetic). Canceling the Russian World Cup in four years time would be great as well - if it could be done (make it clear to the FIFA bureaucrats that otherwise there would be a major boycott).

But here US government could only exert pressure, not act by itself.

Yeah, punish a bunch of soccer players. Not like politicizing international sports hasn't backfired before.  That'll show Russia.

[ag]

From Russian Facebook

.... (somebody claiming inside info about what is happening high up in the regime)

1. Decision on Crimea was taken personally by Putin. He is fully supported by a small group of top officials (5 or 6 men), by coincidence those not having any assets in the West (...)

2. If the West cannot stop Putin during the coming week, there will be an annexation of Eastern Ukraine.

3. Kremlin is basing its plans on having as its opposite the weakest post-war political elite in the West. American leadership is viewed absolutely derisively. Economic sanctions do not make the

4. However, the threat of personal economic sanctions has scared the sh**t out of the other officials, both around the president and around the prime minister. One of them has been hospitalized with heart trouble.

5. However, these officials will not dare to go against Putin. They are almost superstitious in their belief in his luck, say that up till now Putin got everything he wanted.

[ag]

Ah, and there is one more thing that should be done, though it is out of the hands of the US government. Put pressure to have Russian sportsmen restricted from international competition. In particular, what would be very effective, is expelling Russia from the UEFA - right now, before the World Cup (while FIFA as a whole might resist, UEFA should be an easier sell - there are quite a few federations there, which are going to be very sympathetic). Canceling the Russian World Cup in four years time would be great as well - if it could be done (make it clear to the FIFA bureaucrats that otherwise there would be a major boycott).

But here US government could only exert pressure, not act by itself.

Yeah, punish a bunch of soccer players. Not like politicizing international sports hasn't backfired before.  That'll show Russia.

It will make Russians very unhappy. And will be a big strike against Putin´s personal tastes.

[ag]

Ah, and there is one more thing that should be done, though it is out of the hands of the US government. Put pressure to have Russian sportsmen restricted from international competition. In particular, what would be very effective, is expelling Russia from the UEFA - right now, before the World Cup (while FIFA as a whole might resist, UEFA should be an easier sell - there are quite a few federations there, which are going to be very sympathetic). Canceling the Russian World Cup in four years time would be great as well - if it could be done (make it clear to the FIFA bureaucrats that otherwise there would be a major boycott).

But here US government could only exert pressure, not act by itself.

Yeah, punish a bunch of soccer players. Not like politicizing international sports hasn't backfired before.  That'll show Russia.

And, anyway, the sportsmen themselves should be allowed to perform - just not under the Russian flag. Renouncing Russian citizenship should be welcomed.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Ah, and there is one more thing that should be done, though it is out of the hands of the US government. Put pressure to have Russian sportsmen restricted from international competition. In particular, what would be very effective, is expelling Russia from the UEFA - right now, before the World Cup (while FIFA as a whole might resist, UEFA should be an easier sell - there are quite a few federations there, which are going to be very sympathetic). Canceling the Russian World Cup in four years time would be great as well - if it could be done (make it clear to the FIFA bureaucrats that otherwise there would be a major boycott).

But here US government could only exert pressure, not act by itself.

Yeah, punish a bunch of soccer players. Not like politicizing international sports hasn't backfired before.  That'll show Russia.

Forcing FIFA to move the Cup out of Russia while there is still time to reschedule it elsewhere wouldn't hurt soccer players generally.

Read this article

http://news.yahoo.com/mccain-punish-putin-000600943--politics.html

Georgia into NATO? Even if McCain were President and far more persuasive than he actually is, there is zero chance that the Europeans would agree to that. Possibly, just possibly they'd agree to the Ukraine joining NATO once it has lost the Crimea, but even that would be a stretch.  Plus it's not as if NATO would be likely to move major forces into the Ukraine.

[Peeperkorn]

From Russian Facebook

.... (somebody claiming inside info about what is happening high up in the regime)

1. Decision on Crimea was taken personally by Putin. He is fully supported by a small group of top officials (5 or 6 men), by coincidence those not having any assets in the West (...)

2. If the West cannot stop Putin during the coming week, there will be an annexation of Eastern Ukraine.

3. Kremlin is basing its plans on having as its opposite the weakest post-war political elite in the West. American leadership is viewed absolutely derisively. Economic sanctions do not make the

4. However, the threat of personal economic sanctions has scared the sh**t out of the other officials, both around the president and around the prime minister. One of them has been hospitalized with heart trouble.

5. However, these officials will not dare to go against Putin. They are almost superstitious in their belief in his luck, say that up till now Putin got everything he wanted.

What's "Russian Facebook"?