Ukraine Crisis

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

What are the chances that a deal is worked out where the Ukraine formally gives Crimea to Russia, and then the Ukraine joins NATO?

None. Putin doesn't want Russia sharing a border with NATO.

Russia borders five NATO members already.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

But you have to at least acknowledge that the pro-Russia side is indeed worst in its actions than the pro-EU one. That doesn't mean that either of them is good for on the long-term for the working class though.

Honestly, given the brutality of Yanukovych in his response, I'm inclined to agree that the POR/Russians have done worse overall, but the Euromaidan cheerleading in this thread is something I felt warranted a response.

And yeah, that article is silly.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Enter a lonely, courageous Ukrainian rebel, a leading investigative journalist. A dark-skinned journalist who gets racially profiled by the regime. And a Muslim. And an Afghan. This is Mustafa Nayem, the man who started the revolution. Using social media, he called students and other young people to rally on the main square of Kiev in support of a European choice for Ukraine. That square is called the Maidan, which by the way is an Arab word. During the first few days of the protests the students called it the Euromaidan. Russian propaganda called it, predictably enough, the Gayeuromaidan.

This part is of course hilarious. I hope it's meant in parody. As if a lonely courageous guy had started a super cool revolution by himself on #Twitter !!!1!1!! Seriously.

Snowstalker, I agree with you on the fundamentals. But you could word things better.

Of course, it's not a revolution if it's not the working people's revolution. Things will be awful when any government of pro-EU oligarchs start to implement EU austerity at its finest and the people is wholly disappointed and doesn't know what to do next.

But you have to at least acknowledge that the pro-Russia side is indeed worst in its actions than the pro-EU one. That doesn't mean that either of them is good for on the long-term for the working class though.

The new government is almost guaranteed to become unpopular. Just like Yushchenko did. When that happens though, at least they won't send snipers to shoot the protesters.

The next next election will result in a left-wing candidate coming to power. Hopefully the voters aren't stupid enough to make it Yanukovych again.

1. I doubt that the new government would be above violence.
2. Yanukovych is not remotely left-wing, nor is there a coherent or organized left in Ukraine.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Enter a lonely, courageous Ukrainian rebel, a leading investigative journalist. A dark-skinned journalist who gets racially profiled by the regime. And a Muslim. And an Afghan. This is Mustafa Nayem, the man who started the revolution. Using social media, he called students and other young people to rally on the main square of Kiev in support of a European choice for Ukraine. That square is called the Maidan, which by the way is an Arab word. During the first few days of the protests the students called it the Euromaidan. Russian propaganda called it, predictably enough, the Gayeuromaidan.

This part is of course hilarious. I hope it's meant in parody. As if a lonely courageous guy had started a super cool revolution by himself on #Twitter !!!1!1!! Seriously.

Snowstalker, I agree with you on the fundamentals. But you could word things better.

Of course, it's not a revolution if it's not the working people's revolution. Things will be awful when any government of pro-EU oligarchs start to implement EU austerity at its finest and the people is wholly disappointed and doesn't know what to do next.

But you have to at least acknowledge that the pro-Russia side is indeed worst in its actions than the pro-EU one. That doesn't mean that either of them is good for on the long-term for the working class though.

The new government is almost guaranteed to become unpopular. Just like Yushchenko did. When that happens though, at least they won't send snipers to shoot the protesters.

The next next election will result in a left-wing candidate coming to power. Hopefully the voters aren't stupid enough to make it Yanukovych again.

1. I doubt that the new government would be above violence.
2. Yanukovych is not remotely left-wing, nor is there a coherent or organized left in Ukraine.

1. What are you basing this belief on? Wishful thinking mostly.
2. Well, not to your standards, no. A candidate campaigning against austerity (regardless of how sincere) will win though.

The FN in France and the BNP in Britain are nominally anti-austerity too. Does that make them leftists?

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Seriously. This was an interesting thread on a serious topic. The mods ban Opebo but allow this sh**t? Ridiculous.

At least I don't support PETA?

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Russia Today is obviously silly propaganda, but then again so is most of what you get in America.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Who thinks this could set a dangouse precident for other counties. 

No, I don't think it will set a dangouse precident for other counties.

You sure? Alameda's been sabre-rattling against Marin IIRC.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

I checked, the United States gave no military guarantees to Ukraine whatsoever. Budapest Manifesto? The Manifesto does not carry military obligations. It does carry diplomatic ones and the U.S., as well as the EU states, are engaged in diplomacy.

Ag was referring to Japan and South Korea. There's no comparison, as there are clear military treaties in place.

Either the invading Russian troops get bombed by US, UK (and, hopefully, the rest of the NATO troops)

Now this is troubling. Not only you're preaching doom, you seem to look forward this eagerly. Bravo, a war of nuclear powers is surely going to help Ukraine and the rest of us.

I've learned recently that ag is a very disturbed person.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Not actually suggesting we do it but maybe the US and NATO should send some troops into Georgia at their request to take back the lands that Russia illegally took from them?

...

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

You need help.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

You need help.

Well, I will not be the one nuked

I'm an hour and a half away from the nearest Russian target (Philadelphia) if the worst comes.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Want to get China on our side? Promise them all of Siberia if they would side with us against Russia if it were to actually come to anything. If it was the US/Europe/China/Japan agianst Russia they would probably be more likely to back down.

This isn't the 18th century; military conquest isn't actually a legitimate diplomatic instrument anymore.

Tell that to Putin.

Or Obama, or Bush, Clinton, etc.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Even in the best-case scenario, Ukraine is still well over a decade away from EU membership (NATO membership can be done a bit more easily)

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

If Bulgaria can be in the EU, Ukraine can be in the EU.

Ukraine has significantly more problems than Bulgaria even ignoring the last couple months.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

The West and Russia both seem to support self-determination when it's convenient and oppose it when it isn't.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

And Ukraine is already implementing massive austerity measures, including halving pensions. Wonderful.

The Foreign Ministry of Estonia (a country not exactly friendly with Moscow) raises questions about who was responsible for the sniper fire during the Maidan protests.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Yeah, the G8 stopped being important several years ago.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Anyone think this will lead to WW3? I hope not...

No.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

ag, I just wanted to say that reading this thread, I appreciate how absolutely right you are. If the West were to follow your approach, Russia could be perhaps broken for good. You should be Secretary of State.

4 billion people dead worldwide would break Russia for good, yes.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Perhaps Snowtalker belongs to Jobbik

http://www.jobbik.com/jobbik_new_ukrainian_government_chauvinistic_and_illegitimate

No, I am not Hungarian or a neo-fascist. However, their reaction is understandable for the same reason that non-Ukrainians in western Ukraine (Hungarians, Slovaks, Romanians, etc.) often vote for the Party of Regions.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Henry Kissinger and Barack Obama have Nobel Peace Prizes. The award isn't exactly meaningful.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

There has been no Ukranian Nobel prize winners in literature.

And?

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Sevastopol held a referendum along with the rest of Crimea IIRC.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzLtF_PxbYw

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Russia's legal case in the declaration of independence (which lasted all of a day) is dubious at best, yes.