OLD: Comprehensive Social Security Reform Act (See new thread: Reference Only)

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

How can we let people without any income after 2 years ? Nobody chooses to stay unemployed for so much time. There needs to be an universal minmum benefit for everyone : I find $500 to be extremely low, but it's still better than nothing. Otherwise, I'm fine with Shua's proposal.


If the original proposal cost $450 billion, with rates starting with 90% and ending with 50% indefinitely, I'm pretty sure such a proposal should be almost budget-neutral.

I think you are trying to roll all direct welfare payments to people into the UI system as part of the combination/consolidation effort, correct?

Your original minimum amount was $600, so I don't see the difference really.

I doubt shua's budget neutral. According to Marokai, 70/50, 2 years was an increase of $150 billion or so.  Considering shua's rates, it's probably $90 billion increase or so, though that has different minimum and maximum numbers.


I don't like the idea of dropping all the way down to 40%.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

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[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Well hopefully that will either clarify where the Senate stands, or confuse the hell out of this thread with a bunch of nonsensical posts. Either way, it probably saves time from stumbling into an unnecessarily lengthy vote on the matter.

[CatoMinor]

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I do not support it continuing indefinitely. I would support shua's amendment if it included a point where the person is cut off or the % is significantly reduced after the 4th 6 months.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

I don't like the idea of dropping all the way down to 40%.

Why not? I don't think it should have to be either a large percentage or nothing.

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I do not support it continuing indefinitely. I would support shua's amendment if it included a point where the person is cut off or the % is significantly reduced after the 4th 6 months.

I'm not sure what you mean. My amendment has the UI ending after the 4th period of 6 months.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I don't like the idea of dropping all the way down to 40%.

Why not? I don't think it should have to be either a large percentage or nothing.

It just seems too low to the point of might as well not even bother, if that makes sense. I won't oppose it over that, so don't worry.

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I do not support it continuing indefinitely. I would support shua's amendment if it included a point where the person is cut off or the % is significantly reduced after the 4th 6 months.

I'm not sure what you mean. My amendment has the UI ending after the 4th period of 6 months.

What did I say about confusion?

[Marokai Backbeat]

How can we let people without any income after 2 years ? Nobody chooses to stay unemployed for so much time. There needs to be an universal minmum benefit for everyone : I find $500 to be extremely low, but it's still better than nothing. Otherwise, I'm fine with Shua's proposal.


If the original proposal cost $450 billion, with rates starting with 90% and ending with 50% indefinitely, I'm pretty sure such a proposal should be almost budget-neutral.

I think you are trying to roll all direct welfare payments to people into the UI system as part of the combination/consolidation effort, correct?

Your original minimum amount was $600, so I don't see the difference really.

I doubt shua's budget neutral. According to Marokai, 70/50, 2 years was an increase of $150 billion or so.  Considering shua's rates, it's probably $90 billion increase or so, though that has different minimum and maximum numbers.

You think so? I would guess more like a $110 or $120 billion increase. I don't think you get much savings from lowering the last 6 months to 40% (so you may as well keep it at 50% if you want) since I wouldn't suspect most people to stay on UI that long. A bit of savings from reducing the second six months, but remember, you're still expanding UI benefits and making them last 4 times as long as they currently do, traditionally. It's still going to cost alot.

[Napoleon]

My main issue is tying unemployment benefits to income rather than giving a fixed amount for everyone, perhaps tied to a percentage of median income or another factor.

[Antonio the Sixth]

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Hostile unless it includes an indefinite minimum. I hope we can all agree on a relatively cheap permanent income in order to save people from total destitution.

I don't know how it is in Atlasia, but I think the number of people who stay unemployed for more than 2 years is pretty low. Thus I think we can afford it.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

I usually get excited when Yankee PMs me. We go way back. I remember when he was but a young tike in the RPP eager to get his feet wet in the process. Today, my phone buzzed and it said I had a PM from him, and naturally my tail started wagging because I thought something important happened in the RPP.

Instead, it was just a stern reminder of my delinquency. I'll admit this bill doesn't really turn me on too much, and frankly I'm no expert in unemployment compensation (if that's what UI means, if it doesn't, I'm not going to make sense here). I will say that it can't run indefinitely. Both my mother and father's girlfriend work in the recruiting industry, and many of them have had one on one interaction with people who will not work because the salary that comes with that job is not much higher than the unemployment rate. At some stage, we have to cut it off to push people back to work. How long should it last? Who the hell knows. I should leave it to the experts here because all I have is anecdotal evidence which is pretty much worthless in this debate.

I do agree with Marokai that there's no point in lowering it by 10%. Just leave it at 50% and don't lose sleep over the difference. If there are specific questions I need to answer, I'll be happy to. Just understand the reason I haven't participated in this bill so much is because it seems like many of my colleagues understand the process much better than me.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I should have gone ahead and done this the last time we needed to "poll the collective opinion of the chamber". I decided against it at the time, because I feared it would be counterproductive.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

My main issue is tying unemployment benefits to income rather than giving a fixed amount for everyone, perhaps tied to a percentage of median income or another factor.

The main issue here is the amount of disruption it causes in a persons life, such as if they are still making payments on things when the lose their job unexpectedly. Though maybe we can have it based on income in the initial period(s), and then have it just a low fixed amount after that.

Marokai, is there any way to estimate roughly the cost of an extension that is indefinite in time?

[Fuzzybigfoot]

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Hostile unless it includes an indefinite minimum. I hope we can all agree on a relatively cheap permanent income in order to save people from total destitution.

I don't know how it is in Atlasia, but I think the number of people who stay unemployed for more than 2 years is pretty low. Thus I think we can afford it.

^^^^  This.  I don't want to risk letting people fall thorough the cracks, so to speak.  Even if it's a very small number of people.

[Napoleon]

My main issue is tying unemployment benefits to income rather than giving a fixed amount for everyone, perhaps tied to a percentage of median income or another factor.

The main issue here is the amount of disruption it causes in a persons life, such as if they are still making payments on things when the lose their job unexpectedly. Though maybe we can have it based on income in the initial period(s), and then have it just a low fixed amount after that.

Marokai, is there any way to estimate roughly the cost of an extension that is indefinite in time?

That would be the most preferable solution. We need to work out a better system before fiddling around with percentage points and other numbers.

[CatoMinor]

I don't like the idea of dropping all the way down to 40%.

Why not? I don't think it should have to be either a large percentage or nothing.

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I do not support it continuing indefinitely. I would support shua's amendment if it included a point where the person is cut off or the % is significantly reduced after the 4th 6 months.

I'm not sure what you mean. My amendment has the UI ending after the 4th period of 6 months.

My bad, I thought it had it continue indefinitely at the 40% after the 4th 6 months

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

My main issue is tying unemployment benefits to income rather than giving a fixed amount for everyone, perhaps tied to a percentage of median income or another factor.

The main issue here is the amount of disruption it causes in a persons life, such as if they are still making payments on things when the lose their job unexpectedly. Though maybe we can have it based on income in the initial period(s), and then have it just a low fixed amount after that.

Marokai, is there any way to estimate roughly the cost of an extension that is indefinite in time?

While you are waiting a response, I will hold off on the vote on your pending amendment so as to allow you the option to withdraw and replace it depending on the response you get.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

My main issue is tying unemployment benefits to income rather than giving a fixed amount for everyone, perhaps tied to a percentage of median income or another factor.

The main issue here is the amount of disruption it causes in a persons life, such as if they are still making payments on things when the lose their job unexpectedly. Though maybe we can have it based on income in the initial period(s), and then have it just a low fixed amount after that.

Marokai, is there any way to estimate roughly the cost of an extension that is indefinite in time?

While you are waiting a response, I will hold off on the vote on your pending amendment so as to allow you the option to withdraw and replace it depending on the response you get.

Thank you.

[Marokai Backbeat]

What exactly are you asking from me, Shua?

I'm getting mildly irritated at you people. You don't need me for everything.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

What exactly are you asking from me, Shua?

I'm getting mildly irritated at you people. You don't need me for everything.

I'm sure if you need help with this you can let the SoIA know.

Antonio wants to allow people to continue to keep getting $500/month indefinitely after 2  if they still haven't found a job after 2 years.  I'm wondering if you think there's any way to estimate the cost of that.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

I would consider that if you can't get ANY paid work in two years that they would qualify for some other kind of Government support.

I think 3 years of specific unemployment support is fair.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I would consider that if you can't get ANY paid work in two years that they would qualify for some other kind of Government support.

I think 3 years of specific unemployment support is fair.

If this bill passes, any "other kind of government support" would be repealed.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I would consider that if you can't get ANY paid work in two years that they would qualify for some other kind of Government support.

I think 3 years of specific unemployment support is fair.

If this bill passes, any "other kind of government support" would be repealed.

I thought so.


I know you wanted to consolidate programs, but rolling all direct payment welfare into UI was a probably a strategic error. It conflicts with the original notion of what UI was meant to be. You should have either changed the name, or not rolled them altogether.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I would consider that if you can't get ANY paid work in two years that they would qualify for some other kind of Government support.

I think 3 years of specific unemployment support is fair.

If this bill passes, any "other kind of government support" would be repealed.

I thought so.


I know you wanted to consolidate programs, but rolling all direct payment welfare into UI was a probably a strategic error. It conflicts with the original notion of what UI was meant to be. You should have either changed the name, or not rolled them altogether.

Why so ? Is it really worth creating yet another agency just to manage $500 payments for people unemployed since 2 years ? I think my solution works fine.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

This is something that has bothered me... I don't think that all welfare payments should be lumped into one.

If someone is dependent for life on a disability pension, I completely understand that - but unemployment is different.

[Marokai Backbeat]

This is something that has bothered me... I don't think that all welfare payments should be lumped into one.

If someone is dependent for life on a disability pension, I completely understand that - but unemployment is different.

You could always do what Canada does, which is just change the name to "Employment Insurance" and include more broad benefits that aren't always related to job losses. It would at least be a bit more honest.

Marokai, is there any way to estimate roughly the cost of an extension that is indefinite in time?

What you're essentially doing here is creating a guaranteed minimum income system, not an unemployment insurance system. I'm not sure there's any way I can accurately give you the information you want. It would cost a significant chunk more than current estimations, I can certainly tell you that, but I'm not sure how many people would really be out of a job that long, and it would takes years for the cost numbers of people remaining on the system to really add up. I guess you could take my initial projections of how much it would cost as something close, but I really can't offer you anything specific.