Title: Hiram Revels Post by: Emsworth on April 20, 2006, 08:20:41 PM In 1870, the state of Mississippi was "readmitted" into the Union. The Mississippi legislature elected a black person, Hiram Revels, to serve as its Senator. When he attempted to take his seat in the Senate, however, members of the Democratic Party objected on constitutional grounds.
The Constitution, as the Democrats pointed out, provides that a person cannot be a Senator unless he has been a citizen of the United States for at least nine years. Hiram Revels was undoubtedly a citizen of the United States; the Fourteenth Amendment guarantees citizenship to all persons born in the U.S. and subject to its jurisdiction. However, the Fourteenth Amendment had been ratified in 1868, only two years before Revels' election. Before 1868, the Democrats argued, Revels was not a citizen, because the Supreme Court declared in Dred Scott v. Sandford that black persons were not citizens. Thus, Revels was supposedly a citizen for only two years, and not for nine years as the Constitution required. The Senate, ultimately, decided to ignore the Supreme Court's interpretation of the law, and admitted Revels. Whether it was decided rightly or wrongly, whether it deserved to be overruled or not, Dred Scott was still the law of the land before 1868. Did the Senate, therefore, err in admitting Revels, or was it entitled to ignore the views of the Supreme Court? Title: Re: Hiram Revels Post by: MAS117 on April 21, 2006, 12:49:40 AM In 1870, the state of Mississippi was "readmitted" into the Union. The Mississippi legislature elected a black person, Hiram Revels, to serve as its Senator. When he attempted to take his seat in the Senate, however, members of the Democratic Party objected on constitutional grounds. The Constitution, as the Democrats pointed out, provides that a person cannot be a Senator unless he has been a citizen of the United States for at least nine years. Hiram Revels was undoubtedly a citizen of the United States; the Fourteenth Amendment guarantees citizenship to all persons born in the U.S. and subject to its jurisdiction. However, the Fourteenth Amendment had been ratified in 1868, only two years before Revels' election. Before 1868, the Democrats argued, Revels was not a citizen, because the Supreme Court declared in Dred Scott v. Sandford that black persons were not citizens. Thus, Revels was supposedly a citizen for only two years, and not for nine years as the Constitution required. The Senate, ultimately, decided to ignore the Supreme Court's interpretation of the law, and admitted Revels. Whether it was decided rightly or wrongly, whether it deserved to be overruled or not, Dred Scott was still the law of the land before 1868. Did the Senate, therefore, err in admitting Revels, or was it entitled to ignore the views of the Supreme Court? Title: Re: Hiram Revels Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on April 21, 2006, 08:38:36 AM Yes he was. The 14th Amemdment can be viewed as having a retroactive effect that is permissible under the definition of ex post facto made by Calder v. Bull (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calder_v._Bull). Hence in 1868, the 14th Amendment made Hiram Revels a person who had been a citizen since his birth.
Title: Re: Hiram Revels Post by: minionofmidas on April 21, 2006, 09:04:43 AM It could also be argued that Revels had been a citizen for nine years as he was also a citizen until the Dred Scott decision took his citizenship away. (Note that Revels was a freeman and had not been a slave up to 1863.)
However, I do prefer to think that the XIVth amendment merely stated the obvious regarding Black citizenship, and they had been citizens before, and that Dred was always null and void. Title: Re: Hiram Revels Post by: Emsworth on April 21, 2006, 04:11:43 PM The 14th Amemdment can be viewed as having a retroactive effect that is permissible under the definition of ex post facto made by Calder v. Bull (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calder_v._Bull). If it were intended to retroactively overrule Dred Scott, then words such as "are, and always were" would have been used. Alternatively, the Framers of the amendment would have used terms such as "the Constitution shall not be construed ..." It could also be argued that Revels had been a citizen for nine years as he was also a citizen until the Dred Scott decision took his citizenship away. Title: Re: Hiram Revels Post by: Nym90 on April 24, 2006, 02:11:22 PM Article I, Section 5 states that "Each House shall be the Judge of the Elections, Returns and Qualifications of its own Members"
Thus it would seem the Senate had the right to seat Revels. Title: Re: Hiram Revels Post by: A18 on April 24, 2006, 02:14:03 PM Article I, Section 5 states that "Each House shall be the Judge of the Elections, Returns and Qualifications of its own Members" Thus it would seem the Senate had the right to seat Revels. What does that have to do with anything? Title: Re: Hiram Revels Post by: Storebought on April 24, 2006, 02:36:21 PM I would have thought that the Civil War effectively answered the question on the Consitutional validity of the Dred Scott decision(s): might makes right.
Title: Re: Hiram Revels Post by: Nym90 on April 24, 2006, 03:42:02 PM Article I, Section 5 states that "Each House shall be the Judge of the Elections, Returns and Qualifications of its own Members" Thus it would seem the Senate had the right to seat Revels. What does that have to do with anything? Did the Senate, therefore, err in admitting Revels, or was it entitled to ignore the views of the Supreme Court? It would seem to imply that the Senate was entitled to ignore the views of the Supreme Court. They had the right to decide whether Revels met the Constitutional requirement or not. Title: Re: Hiram Revels Post by: A18 on April 24, 2006, 06:32:13 PM Article I, Section 5 states that "Each House shall be the Judge of the Elections, Returns and Qualifications of its own Members" Thus it would seem the Senate had the right to seat Revels. What does that have to do with anything? Did the Senate, therefore, err in admitting Revels, or was it entitled to ignore the views of the Supreme Court? It would seem to imply that the Senate was entitled to ignore the views of the Supreme Court. They had the right to decide whether Revels met the Constitutional requirement or not. I see. I thought you were saying that just because they had the right to make the decision, they were therefore 'correct.' Title: Re: Hiram Revels Post by: jimrtex on May 07, 2006, 02:11:30 PM In 1870, the state of Mississippi was "readmitted" into the Union. The Mississippi legislature elected a black person, Hiram Revels, to serve as its Senator. When he attempted to take his seat in the Senate, however, members of the Democratic Party objected on constitutional grounds. It is outside the Supreme Court's competency. Title: Re: Hiram Revels Post by: jimrtex on May 07, 2006, 02:16:42 PM I see. I thought you were saying that just because they had the right to make the decision, they were therefore 'correct.' Title: Re: Hiram Revels Post by: Emsworth on May 07, 2006, 03:45:14 PM I see. I thought you were saying that just because they had the right to make the decision, they were therefore 'correct.' Title: Re: Hiram Revels Post by: A18 on May 07, 2006, 03:46:48 PM I see. I thought you were saying that just because they had the right to make the decision, they were therefore 'correct.' Um, they're the sole judge, but the sole judge can be wrong. Title: Re: Hiram Revels Post by: jimrtex on May 11, 2006, 01:00:08 PM I see. I thought you were saying that just because they had the right to make the decision, they were therefore 'correct.' Title: Re: Hiram Revels Post by: A18 on May 11, 2006, 01:29:47 PM In a legally binding manner, they are. But that doesn't mean they made a legally sound judgment. We're getting into semantics. The bottom line is that the Congress's view of a person's qualifications is what goes, but a person can disagree with Congress's reasoning. It's no answer to say, "we decide," when the objection is that you decided wrong.
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