Talk Elections

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article6823431.ece

This "election" should be treated as seriously as those in Syria or Cuba.

Christmas Is Going To Be December 25th This Year, I Heard.

when you next show me an election in Cuba where opposition to Castro gets... I won't say nearly 50%, I'd say 5% of the vote, I will agree :)

It's not a fair election, but it's not Cuba either.

Afghanistan is a fully normal South Asian state now. I say we pull out.

This was local fraud. Committed by both sides, I should add (not saying anything about extent), and helped by a dirt poor turnout. More on the model of an instable dirt poor country with western-imposed democracy as frequently seen in Africa, then; not the model of a strongman's dictatorship with window dressing elections as in Suharto's Indonesia or in Morocco.

I agree pulling out - or rather, ending OEF - would make sense. It took me time to understand that the flaw to Afghanistan plans was really as gamelosing disastrous as it looks on paper. The "country building" mission was doomed to certain failure if it could get identified with the non-defensive warfare on civilians/insurgents committed by the Americans and British from the first. It should never have gone ahead.
Meh. I was hopeful in 2001 and ready to ignore what I always knew was a flaw. Of course, OEF was initially marketed as "we'll just hunt out Osama bin Laden and the handful of people still with him, be gone by the end of the year". Yeah, well, lmao.

Ballots are being thrown out in some pro-Karzai areas (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/8248543.stm)

So the election commission is taking action. Very good.

If these "quarantined" ballots (all from stuffed 100% turnout, 100% Karzai booths, presumably) are not yet included in the partial but (according to my understanding) near-complete totals that have Karzai at 54%, then Karzai does not need them to avoid a runoff.

Do you think Karzai genuinely has won this election removing fraud cases?

No. I think Karzai has won this election removing those too-obvious fraud cases the commission will throw out.

Karzai's agreed to a run-off after the Electoral Commission invalidated his first-round victory and bumped him down to 48%.

()

He seems to have stolen my coat.

There are two commissions. One owned by Karzai, one by the US of A. Karzai's people theoretically have the final say, but they - or rather, Karzai - have given in what the other commission - or rather, the US Government - wants.

Any Afghan left with any faith in western-style democracy or the west or Karzai or Abdullah after this unseemly, monthlong and semiopen wrangling process is clearly stark barking insane.

I would say the same of any who had it beforehand.

He seems to have stolen my hat.

Just kidding.

Unfortunately.

Yeah, it's obviously not a "Western-style" democracy. How could it be given the history and the overall situation of the country.

All sides are probably cheating and all sides accuse each other of cheating, no matter whether that other side actually cheated or not (it probably cheated, just not to the extent the first cheating side claims).

Under "fair" conditions, Karzai would probably win anyhow... we just don't know how big. And he's probably going to win the run-off. But not before this whole process was turned into a farce.

Surprised it hasn't been noted here yet. The guy in western dress has pulled out.