Talk Elections

Reasonable Minimum Wage Bill

1. A federal minimum wage of $7.25 shall be established by the end of 2009, which shall be increased to $8.50 by the end of 2010.

2. After 2010, the minimum wage shall be indexed to the rate of wage inflation, as measured by the Employment Cost Index (ECI). In periods of wage deflation as measured by the ECI, the minimum wage will be frozen.

3. Any employer found to be paying any of his employees below the minimum wage shall be sentenced to a fine of up to $20,000.

I'll need to think about this one :)

I would prefer $9.50 or better yet $12.50 but that won't pass for sure. This will have to do.

Christ, I may have to reconsider running against you :P

This bill is awful. Raising the minimum wage during such tough economic times will surely result in job cuts. In turn, prices will go up, making it more difficult for those who aren't at minimum wage but still in a lower income position, will be significantly affected. Demand will surely fall, and on and on.

I'd consider lower numbers, for example $6.50, increasing to $7.25, but in the present form, I cannot vote for this bill.

I, like NCY, would've preferred a higher wage, but this will have to do.

In any case, this is a necessity. Wages often fall in recessions and many of our wages in the regions are woefully inadequate for reaching a decent enough living (or even living above the poverty line.) Many places, such as Canada, are in the process of raising their minimum wage right now, and this is certainly a policy we need to have.

The raises are very gradual, and it would take over a year or even a year and ahalf for the wage to reach it's final state, so it should have less of an impact on businesses. In order to assure our citizens at least a decent living, and protection from sticky wages, we have to assure our citizens they have a right to a decent living.

As for the idea that wages reduce output and increase unemployment, this may have some hint of truth to it in the short term, but we would benefit in the long run. With all the stimulus money going to benefit individuals and give businesses a break, there's no better time to institute a minimum wage than now.

Especially since I'm a teenager who will be looking for a job soon, I've always been a supporter of a higher minimum wage. A lot of people are having to take minimum wage jobs because they lost their old job. This bill would help those people a lot. And I know this may sound silly, but raising the minimum wage could help more kids go to college. If they're responsible and put money into savings, they'll be able to afford collage. (Granted, it won't help that much, but it will help) ;)

It may, therefore be better not to introduce rises incrementally, The cost in adjusting, monitoring and taxing appropriately wages every 4 months would have to be met by the state and by each business. I can understand why (as it makes it cheaper during the downturn, to introduce) but it's staggered over some 20 months. It may be better to simply stagger it over say 18 or 24 months but in two increments, rather than 5.

No. College students would be more affected by higher prices for products they consume, namely food items but also basic things like laundry and haircuts. Not all entry-level jobs are minimum wage, just unskilled ones. Likely a teenager will be making a couple dollars more than minimum wage. That is, for those of us who actually HAVE jobs.

Introduce an amendment if you like ;)

I'm still haggling over the money before I look at the math ;D

Clause 4 could be abused in certain cases, perhaps a lower penalty.

There should be some sort of exclusionary clause for piece-rate places and other non-wage industries.

I take breaking wage laws very very seriously. You're essentially robbing someone of the ability to live their life, as such I think this penalty is just fine, perhaps even too kind.

Besides, there's alot of wage law breaches that go on in America today, and it's because of a lack of serious penalties or enforcement. We need to guard against such things.

I would also support enacting a living wage, but I don't think that that could pass the Senate. I would happily sign such a bill though.

I understand your concerns, but is five-year jail time really necessary for one or two workers getting low wages? There should be a clause that limits the penalty for small offenders. However, much higher penalties should be given to large corporations.

Also, you may want to further increase the penalties if the workers with low wages are illegal aliens.

Well, for sure.

Instead of trying to implement several different clauses for each type of earning, why not just specify that this applies to hourly wage earners or something like that?

Yes

This is a good bill.  We need to ensure that the working class is being paid enough to reasonably live on.  I support this 100%.

Tend to support.

But we also need to protect small businesses that may not be able to afford these types of hourly wages in such dire economic times.

Yes, I agree with that, which is also why a small tax cut on small business might also be in order.

We don't have the capacity to do that. Otherwise we could bypass the whole issue regarding small businesses and cut taxes for the lowest incomes like afleitch attempted (which most of us didn't support, and I still won't).

There are also tax cuts affecting small businesses already in effect due to the stimulus bill. The fact that people want to introduce these measures piecemeal and somewhat timidly shows that there are concerns over its effect at a time of economic crisis and possible recovery.

Therefore

Reasonable Minimum Wage Act

1. A federal minimum wage of $7.25 shall be established by the end of 2009, which shall be increased to $8.50 by the end of 2010.

2. After 2010, the minimum wage shall be indexed to the rate of wage inflation, as measured by the Employment Cost Index (ECI). In periods of wage deflation as measured by the ECI, the minimum wage will be frozen.

3. Any employer found to be paying any of his employees below the minimum wage shall be sentenced to a fine of up to $20,000.

Wow, opposed wholeheartedly. The only decent thing there is the first change.

What's wrong with linking the minimum wage to wages?

He didn't think of it first.

"As wages can be cut in lean times, so too can the minimum wage."

I absolutely, wholeheartedly, completely, 100%, without exception oppose a system where the minimum wage can drop.


Oh would you please go away. I have enough to deal with today without you involved.

I think attaching it to the wage inflation is actually pretty fair.

How about a compromise like U.S. social security checks are run?

Let's tie the minimum wage to "wage inflation", but only if that number is equal or greater than 0, otherwise, it just stays the same.

Why not? If there were 3 years of wage deflation, should the minimum wage rise for those three years? It's a bit of kick in the gut for those who earn not far above the minimum wage and see their wages drop. Besides if they fall for one year, if there is wage growth the next year the minimum wage goes back up.

The minimum wage cannot keep increasing regardless of what else is happening in the economy and with comparitive wages.

Comments like these aren't needed on the Senate floor. You made no points, and you are only trying to pester and anger other Senators. =/

Whichever way we tie it to inflation is fine, as long as we prevent it from flying along with the winds of the economy, essentially ruining the point of a minimum wage.

I still oppose the amendment, however. Wage violations are very serious to me, I won't be a part of an attempt to let wage laws go only lightly punished.


It could simply stay the same.

I seriously wonder about your definition of the word "minimum" (which, to me, implies some sort of floor) if your idea of a minimum wage is one that floats back and forth. It completely destroys the purpose of a wage minimum if that minimum isn't solid.

The minimum wage will be solid in the manner that you cannot pay someone anything below it.

Do you know what happens if we have say several years of wage deflation and the minimum wage keeps going up? Employers who employ people cents, or a dollar above that start to bring their workers wages down to meet the minimum wage. Low wages start to 'back up' against the minimum wage increasing the number of workers who are paid the very minimum (rather than just above it) It leads to people with different roles and skills who would usually be paid a different wage being paid the same, so the more skilled worker is shortchanged or finds that they get the same money for doing less and their employer is willing to let that happen therefore reducing skills.

The minimum wage cannot operate in a vacuum in comparison to everyone else in the workplace.

I would tend to support this idea. As I told Marokai via PM I won't support a minimum wage that falls during deflationary times.

I would also support that by way of a compromise.

EDIT: I have amended the amendment :P

I still wish that penalties against wage violations were more harsh, but we can work on that.

Would everyone be fine with eliminating Clause 2, though? I regret writing that, and I know at least one or two others have voiced objections to me privately about it.

Yeah, clause 2 can go.

In what manner were the objections may I ask?

Yes, I would have proposed it anyways after that amendment.

I objected actually. I don't see why someone under 18 should be paid less for exactly the same work. Potential complications as a result might even be employers specifically attempting to employ teenagers solely for economic reasons.

So afleitch, if you amend your amendment again to remove Clause 2 I'll accept it as friendly and we can move on to another issue. :P

Done.

Accepted as friendly!

Senators have 24 hours to object.

I still think the $8.50 number will cripple small businesses.

     Freezing the minimum wage in times of deflation might backfire if the economy deflates enough. I don't know enough about the effects of Hoover's policies in the Great Depression to be sure about this, though.

And, it has passed.

This amendment is worse than the original bill.

I am sure than if the economy goes thought an very heavy and permanent deflation, senators will be able to manage that by changing the law.

Bump to this. Is anyone working on an amendment re: deflation or what-have-you? Otherwise, this is clear to have a final vote in a couple of hours.

I'd like to make some amendments to the wage violations section:

Would that be $30,000 per employee or $30,000 regardless of the number of employees?

I suppose $30,000 regarding the findings no matter the number of employees.

I'm going to try (although I have quite a bit of work to do this weekend) to get a report on this by Monday. Expect one next week for sure.

Does anyone object to my change?

I can start a vote on the amendment right now if someone calls for it.

No objections on my part.

I object.

A fine of up to £30,000 for one violation, deliberate or in error (and trust me it happens! People in my workplace were paid under the minimum wage for 3 months due to an error) could be enough to close a workplace down and cast it's employees into unemployment. The reasons for taking legal action against an employer have to be tightened in the legislation.

Good thing we don't use pounds. :P

Yes. Given the weakness of the Dollar ;D ;)

In all seriousness, that's actually a pretty small fine, I mean, $5.28 isn't very much ;)

I have a feeling you will be using Euros soon anyway. :P Just a gut feeling.

I suppose I'm fine keeping the first penalty lower, as long as we can agree on harsher penalties for bigger businesses.

No, The Sun hates Europe.

^^^friendly amendment :)

Accepted as friendly. :)

I'll just ignore (or withdraw, what have you) my earlier change and make this instead, taking Afleitch's concerns into account:


It's true, I don't want to punish smaller businesses, but larger businesses have no excuse, and deserve to be punished hard.

I hereby opne up a vote on this amendment. Please vote Aye, Nay or Abstain.

---

Aye

Aye

Aye

Well that wasn't at all what I just wrote. So nay.

Nay since this vote appears to be messed up.

Nay, the amendment was withdraw before the vote.

Nay, because I have no idea what's going on right now.

I change my vote to NAY.

wtf is going on?

Nay.

Nay.

Since the vote seems to be messed up, I change my vote to Nay. ???

Nay

---

With 0 Ayes, 10 Nays and 0 Abstentions this amendment has failed.

Let me make sure first: this is your right amendment, right Marokai?

Yes indeed.

I hereby open up a vote on this amendment. Please vote Aye, Nay or Abstain.

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Aye

Aye

Aye

Aye

Aye, so we can get this thing moving to my ultimate Nay vote.

Aye

With 7 Ayes, 0 Nays and 0 Abstentions this bill has passed.

*Amendment ;)

Aye ftr

Aye ftr

Aye ftr

I'd like a final vote please.

I hereby open up a final vote on the bill below. Please vote Aye, Nay or Abstain.

Aye

Nay

Aye

Aye

Got what I wanted - so Aye :)

Aye

This bill has enough votes to pass. Senators now have 24 hours to change their votes.

Aye

Aye

With 8 Ayes, 1 Nay and 0 Abstentions this bill has passed. I hereby present it to the President for his signature.

X Lief

Workers of Atlasia, rejoice!