Talk Elections

Who do you think was a better president, John F. Kennedy or Lyndon B. Johnson?

Go.

LBJ by far. JFK is way overrated.

The progress Lyndon Johnson made for civil rights far outweigh the achievements of most other presidents.

JFK by far.

LBJ was the worst president since World War II.

LBJ, without question.

Easily Johnson.

LBJ

LBJ accomplished more but he also drastically increased our role in Vietnam. I have similar opinions of both LBJ and Nixon: Both accomplished some very good things for the country and they both did some things that left a stain we are still trying to get out...

Kennedy, easily.

The progress Lyndon Johnson made for civil rights far outweigh the achievements of most other presidents, summed.

Johnson should probably be on Mount Rushmore.

Both were hawkish nationalist types, but at least LNJ had civil rights and the Great Society. Kennedy really is an overrated President.

Who's LNJ? I'm assuming you have a typo and mean LBJ.

lol

The down to earth civil rights crusader from Texas was a far better President than the sex obsessed patrician from Massachusetts.

Tough to say. Johnson's domestic accomplishments with civil rights legislation and numerous domestic accomplishments http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LBJ#Major_legislation_signed (also add establishing the National Endowment(s) for the Arts (and) Humanities) is impressive to say the least. But the impact of Vietnam can't be understated, and LBJ bares overwhelming personal responsibility for the vast escalation of American involvement.

Yes, Kennedy and Eisenhower had American troops there already, but nowhere to the degree LBJ deployed after the Gulf of Tonkin. Also by most accounts (e.g. then Senate Majority Leader Mike Mansfield) JFK intended on gradually withdrawing the then small number of American troops in Vietnam after the 64 election. Anything could've happen, of course, but it seems likely we would've never had the Vietnam War if JFK had lived.

In all, tossup.

LBJ

JFK

Those ideas came from JFK, who would have continued pursuing it if they passed. JFK had the intention of bringing all our advisory forces back from Vietnam after he was re-elected. LBJ sent 500,000 combat troops into a war that he didn't think we could win AND LBJ saying this is on the record.

JFK wins. LBJ was a great politician but mad some very bad decisions of his own. JFK was better.

JFK did almost nothing (except being manhandled by Tovarishch Nikita). LBJ did a lot of things, with mixed results. It's a matter of taste, but I'd say LBJ.

Johnson, the last President to actually do something to help the poor and the downtrodden in America.

Johnson by far.

Yep, making them slaves on the government plantation. What a wonderful massah.

Obama?

JFK

No.

Hasn't done jackshit.

JFK for several reasons
1-Everything Johnson was proposing that was any good (Civil Rights, certain parts of the Great Society) were proposed by JFK to a certain extent or another.
2-Vietnam. The most polarizing event in American history which has left scars that have yet to be healed.
3-The Great Society did more good than harm, but it was very poorly executed and didn't resolve the problem of urban decay and poverty
4-JFK was a baller.

JFK's handling of the Cuban Missle Crisis probably belongs on this list. Yes, I know there were untold other facts such as cuban subs with nukes patrolling less than 90 miles off US shores long before the Soviets prepared putting missles in Cuba, but the fact remains he kept Soviet land based missles out of the Western Hemisphere and strengthened America's hand in foriegn policy while doing it (wiping out much of the loss of face from the Bay of Pigs fiasco).

???

Everything Kennedy did in regards to Cuba was a disaster.

I'm not a fan of St Kennedy of Brookline.

They were both pretty good Presidents, but Johnson...I think JFK would have had a great presidency if he had served two terms (wouldn't be popular due to Vietnam, but...).  It took a lot of time of LBJ's reputation to improve after Vietnam, I don't think it'd be quite as hard for Kennedy, but...

I suppose it's kind of a good thing that Kennedy was killed.  I can't imagine him with graying hair in the '80s.  Plus, he'd probably be a divorced womanizer.  I suppose his reputation now is someone eternally young, energetic, charismatic, tragic, I guess that's a good thing for him.

No one remembers the Bay of Pigs anymore, they remember the Missile Crisis...The ones that are killed have it easier I guess.

Definitely LBJ.

JFK

JFK, for inspiring the greatest achievement in all of human history:

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JFK hands down

Not to be mean, but I'm not sure JFK would have survived to the 1980s if he was not assasinated. He had Addison's disease, after all, and possibly some other diseases. In regards to the Cuban Missile Crisis, JFK caused it himself by recklessly placing American missiles in Turkey and provoking the U.S.S.R. (which in turn, caused them to place missiles in Cuba). All of this could have been avoided if JFK was a more rational decision-maker.

BUT IT'S A FAKE !!!! ;D

LBJ.

JFK was a clown and a mimbo. But LBJ was truly freaking evil.

JFK

Why is LBJ winning, as Libertas mentioned already, LBJ was evil

Because LBJ did good things.

On the domestic front, LBJ by a country mile.

On the foreign policy front, both were atrocious.

LBJ, one of my two favorite Presidents.

No he didn't.

Neither they were both horrible!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, he did.

John Fitzgerald Kennedy was a better president.

Why?

LBJ carried on the Vietnam War. It doesn't matter who started it, LBJ had the chance to get out when things started getting worse and instead he proceeded toward disaster.

LBJ pushed through much more domestic legislation than JFK. Also, JFK nearly caused a nuclear war by placing American missiles in Turkey and provoking the U.S.S.R., causing them to place missiles in Cuba. Not to mention that JFK screwed up the Bay of Pigs and also increased U.S. troops levels in Vietnam (from 750 to 14,000). Finally, hindsight is 20-20--LBJ thought Vietnam was going to be another Korea and that he needed to prevent the U.S.S.R. from expanding its infeluence in Southeast Asia (due to the domino theory). He didn't know the U.S. would lose the war or so many lives. It's only in hindisght that Vietnam could clearly be said to be a mistake. Beleive me, if Vietnam ended up like Korea, everybody would be calling LBJ a true hero and a great President.

JFK was gonna pull out of Vietnam.

He might have changed his mind about that if he survived.

It's pretty hard to compare the two considering one died two years into his term. LBJ had more time to do good things and do bad things.

I say LBJ, he simply got more things done, but his legacy is still the Vietnam War and the failed suppreme crt nominee and cost us a true progressive as Chief Justice there were way more qualified Dems to fill that vacancy on, he could of did what Nixon, Warren and Truman did, go outside the Scrt to pick his nominee. Although Marshall would have won my vote.

JFK saved the world from Nuclear War aprx 6-7 times. LBJ pushed America into a quagmire which doomed the Democratic Party for a generation.

Also, it's debatable if the Great Society (outside of Civil Rights) was so great anyway.

Although LBJ is obviously the best American president aside from FDR, it is to JFK's credit that he is the third best, and certainly far better than anything since LBJ.

I'm not saying that it is clear that FDR is better than LBJ, just that they are the two best, and it is arguable that they're tied or one a bit better than the other, but there would be no rationale for putting any others in their league.. well that is, assuming 'liberal' values.  Obviously if you oppose rights for minorities, workers, etc., then various Republicans would be better.

The only time JFK "saved" the world from nuclear war was during the Missile Crisis, and that was caused by his own recklessness in the first place in placing American missiles in Turkey and provoking the U.S.S.R. Vietnam wasn't the only thing that doomed Democrats for a generation--does Carter, Jimmy ring a bell? Also, giving healthcare to seniors is a good thing. Enviornemntal protection adn consumer protection are also great things, and I'm pretty sure all of taht was also included in the Great Society.

lol?

It's a miracle that the man didn't cause a nuclear war.

1-Cuban Missile Crisis: Did not do as Curtis LeMay and many of advisors wished and initiate a first strike.
2-Bay of Pigs: Did not invade Cuba following the failure of the Cuban fighters
3-Berlin: Ordered his generals to pull back troops in what looked like the beginning of World War Three
4-Laos: Pushed for negotiations rather than a confrontation
5-Vietnam: Planned on with drawling forces rather than get into what LBJ did
While these aren't all nuclear war, they prove that he was anything but a hawk.

Also, in terms of the Great Society, some parts of it were good. But by in large it was an example of noble intentions, followed by bad administration and poor implementation. The belief that poverty can be ended through handouts is perhaps the most flat-out wrong belief when it comes to the War on Poverty. The only way to end the cycle of poverty is through jobs and education, neither of which were effectively provided by the Great Society. It was like the parent who think they are helping their child by giving them whatever they want (spoiling). It may do some good, but it dosen't teach them the life skills necessary for the future. I tend to agree with RFK on this: jobs not welfare, private sector not strictly public sector.

In all seriousness - IIRC I had some libertarian-trolling comments about the greatness of LBJ earlier in this thread - Johnson was good, on balance, although obviously Vietnam drags his rating down a little, but Kennedy saved the world from nuclear war.

So, uh, yeah, Kennedy.

Exactly. He came extremely close to causing one by placing American missiles in Turkey.

1. Was cuased by JFK's own incompetence by placing American missiles in Turkey
2. Was caused by JFK's own incomptence in screwing up the Big of Pigs by not giving the Cuban rebels their promised American air support
3-5. Not a guarantee nuclear war would have occured. Keep in mind that the U.S.S.R. was also very strongly afraid of a nuclear war. Also, just because JFk planeed on withdrawing U.S. troops from Vietnam doesn't mean he might not have changed his mind later. LBJ initialyl opposed escalation of the Vietnam War and only alter began to support it.

Has anyone's opinions changed? Any new perspectives?

Still LBJ. You can dissert as much as you want about what Kennedy would have done if not assassinated, but when you compare actual records it's pretty clear.

28 of you have got to be kidding me.

LBJ's program was basically JFK's, but more aggressive (both on the domestic side and the Cold War foreign policy side).

JFK, no contest.

Kennedy of course. Escalating the only war we've ever lost vs. preventing nucular war. I'll take the latter.

I think that Kennedy was a very good president, but I think that LBJ was miles ahead of Kennedy when it came to domestic issues. Johnson's civil rights legacy to me should far outweigh the Vietnam War weight.

Iraq wasn't really a win for the US either.

But LBJ wins in my opinion. He probably was a gigantic S.O.B. but he got things done.

Absolutely--this is what I was going to say.  LBJ was one of the best presidents ever in domestic affairs.  It's extremely difficult to give him an overall ranking, given that Vietnam was such a disaster.  Nevertheless, if someone forced me to at gunpoint I would rank him a "near great" president.  The highest I would go with JFK would be "very good."

Had JFK lived, his brother would have pushed him in the right direction on civil rights. Or at least I hope so. In any case, RFK would have been a better president than JFK. Not so sure about Johnson though.

LBJ, by far. But Ted Kennedy would have been better than him.

LBJ obvious due the Civil Rights passage and Marshall on the Supreme Crt. If Kennedy had been prez under a different time when the Vietnam war was waging and he rode the Kennedy antiwar movement to the WH like his brother RFK almost did he would of been the better of the two.

Seriously? Then why didn't Johnson run for re-election? Please explain to me in full detail what Johnson did well without mentioning redistribution of the wealth and socialism. John F. Kennedy was a true leader whom I would've considered voting for had he been there in 1964. He loved this country, believed in serving the country rather than what the country could do for the individual, and had a positive outlook on life. His heroism should never be forgotten from WWII. He may have had some character flaws regarding women but what guy would act differently if he constantly had the most beautiful women in the world throwing themselves at him? Other than Civil Rights, I don't see Johnson as doing well. I'll hold my views on other issues of his era for a different posting.

Once the Voting Rights Act was passed, Johnson knew he would lose the South and he felt his duty was to give Blacks equal representation and Destroy the Communist in the Cold War. Sometimes you have do what's best for your country rather than do whats best for your party and both cost the Dems 1968 barring a RFK revival.

cool glitch: "Total Voters" is showing up as 97 while 98 votes are recorded as cast.

There's actually a reason for that, I think. This is my second account, and was merged with my first account. I'm pretty sure that my votes in polls reset, thus allowing me to vote again.

JFK. I might have even still voted for him if LBJ hadn't escalated Vietnam. 

I always admired LBJ and saw him as something of a reluctant hero/tragic figure. The corrupt southerner who is somehow forced by History to step up, confront his fellow southerners and become the civil rights hero.

I'm still dumbfounded by the fact that the Hollywodd is unable to make a great movie about his unlikely life and career. 

I hope History will remember him that way... however much we talka bout how we define our times- our times define us... LBJ stepped up and I will always be damn proud to have cast my first vote for that man
He had his mistakes but he was a man who faced the challenges of the time with a resolve I wish our leaders had today and we always knew that

The Brown V Board of Kansas decision forced concervative dixiecrats like Thomas Clark and Stanley F Reed to accept Blacks as equals and set the stage for Johnson to step up.