Talk Elections

MADISON, Wis. - A federal judge in Wisconsin ruled the National Day of Prayer unconstitutional Thursday, saying the day amounts to a call for religious action.

U.S. District Judge Barbara Crabb wrote that the government can no more enact laws supporting a day of prayer than it can encourage citizens to fast during Ramadan, attend a synagogue or practice magic.

"In fact, it is because the nature of prayer is so personal and can have such a powerful effect on a community that the government may not use its authority to try to influence an individual's decision whether and when to pray," Crabb wrote.

Congress established the day in 1952 and in 1988 set the first Thursday in May as the day for presidents to issue proclamations asking Americans to pray. The Freedom From Religion Foundation, a Madison-based group of atheists and agnostics, filed a lawsuit against the federal government in 2008 arguing the day violated the separation of church and state.

President Barack Obama's administration has countered that the statute simply acknowledges the role of religion in the United States. Obama issued a proclamation last year but did not hold public events with religious leaders as former President George W. Bush had done.

Crabb wrote that her ruling shouldn't be considered a bar to any prayer days until all appeals are exhausted. U.S. Justice Department attorneys who represented the federal government in the case were reviewing the ruling Thursday afternoon, agency spokesman Charles Miller said. He declined further comment.

Obama spokesman Matt Lehrich said in an e-mail to The Associated Press the president still plans to issue a proclamation for the next prayer day.

"As he did last year, President Obama intends to recognize a National Day of Prayer," Lehrich said.

The American Center for Law and Justice, which represented 31 members of Congress who joined the federal government as defendants, called Crabb's ruling flawed and promised to appeal.

"It is unfortunate that this court failed to understand that a day set aside for prayer for the country represents a time-honored tradition that embraces the First Amendment, not violates it," ACLJ Chief Counsel Jay Sekulow said in a statement.

The Alliance Defense Fund, an Arizona-based group of Christian lawyers, issued a statement saying Crabb's ruling undermines American tradition dating back to the nation's birth.

Freedom From Religion Foundation attorney Richard Bolton didn't immediately return a message seeking comment.

Crabb wrote that her ruling was not a judgment on the value of prayer. She noted government involvement in prayer may be constitutional if the conduct serves a "significant secular purpose" and doesn't amount to a call for religious action. But the National Day of Prayer crosses that line, she wrote.

"It goes beyond mere 'acknowledgment' of religion because its sole purpose is to encourage all citizens to engage in prayer, an inherently religious exercise that serves no secular function in this context," she wrote. "In this instance, the government has taken sides on a matter that must be left to individual conscience."

http://www.philly.com/philly/wires/ap/news/nation_world/20100415_ap_federaljudgerulesdayofprayerunconstitutional.html

Should have happened along time ago. 

Nonsense.  What's next?  Thanksgiving?

By the President of the United States of America.

A Proclamation.

The year that is drawing towards its close, has been filled with the blessings of fruitful fields and healthful skies. To these bounties, which are so constantly enjoyed that we are prone to forget the source from which they come, others have been added, which are of so extraordinary a nature, that they cannot fail to penetrate and soften even the heart which is habitually insensible to the ever watchful providence of Almighty God. In the midst of a civil war of unequaled magnitude and severity, which has sometimes seemed to foreign States to invite and to provoke their aggression, peace has been preserved with all nations, order has been maintained, the laws have been respected and obeyed, and harmony has prevailed everywhere except in the theatre of military conflict; while that theatre has been greatly contracted by the advancing armies and navies of the Union. Needful diversions of wealth and of strength from the fields of peaceful industry to the national defence, have not arrested the plough, the shuttle or the ship; the axe has enlarged the borders of our settlements, and the mines, as well of iron and coal as of the precious metals, have yielded even more abundantly than heretofore. Population has steadily increased, notwithstanding the waste that has been made in the camp, the siege and the battle-field; and the country, rejoicing in the consiousness of augmented strength and vigor, is permitted to expect continuance of years with large increase of freedom. No human counsel hath devised nor hath any mortal hand worked out these great things. They are the gracious gifts of the Most High God, who, while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy. It has seemed to me fit and proper that they should be solemnly, reverently and gratefully acknowledged as with one heart and one voice by the whole American People. I do therefore invite my fellow citizens in every part of the United States, and also those who are at sea and those who are sojourning in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next, as a day of Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens. And I recommend to them that while offering up the ascriptions justly due to Him for such singular deliverances and blessings, they do also, with humble penitence for our national perverseness and disobedience, commend to His tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners or sufferers in the lamentable civil strife in which we are unavoidably engaged, and fervently implore the interposition of the Almighty Hand to heal the wounds of the nation and to restore it as soon as may be consistent with the Divine purposes to the full enjoyment of peace, harmony, tranquillity and Union.

In testimony whereof, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the Seal of the United States to be affixed.

Done at the City of Washington, this Third day of October, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-three, and of the Independence of the Unites States the Eighty-eighth.

-Abraham Lincoln

Truth. Pray on your own time, we don't need a specific day for such a thing.

This thread should get interesting rather quickly.

cinyc, that's an appeal to tradition. It's a logical fallacy.

Obama: "We are NO LONGER a Christian Nation"

Why would Thanksgiving be next?  Its not a religious holiday.  

Yep, that's why I posted it.  Its better than discussing Ron Paul for a week. 

It's inherently religious, though not promoting any particular religion.

Not when interpreting the constitution.   Who do you suppose we're supposed to give thanks to during Thanksgiving?  How many national prayer days did George Washington pronounce?  How can something that the founders also proclaimed be unconstitutional?

Hmm, now when did Obama say this? I'd obviously applaud him if he did but you are just fabricating things as usual aren't you?

Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor; and Whereas both Houses of Congress have, by their joint committee, requested me to "recommend to the people of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness:"

Now, therefore, I do recommend and assign Thursday, the 26th day of November next, to be devoted by the people of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being who is the beneficent author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be; that we may then all unite in rendering unto Him our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and protection of the people of this country previous to their becoming a nation; for the signal and manifold mercies and the favorable interpositions of His providence in the course and conclusion of the late war; for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty which we have since enjoyed; for the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been enable to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national one now lately instituted for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed, and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and, in general, for all the great and various favors which He has been pleased to confer upon us.

And also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech Him to pardon our national and other transgressions; to enable us all, whether in public or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually; to render our National Government a blessing to all the people by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed; to protect and guide all sovereigns and nations (especially such as have shown kindness to us), and to bless them with good governments, peace, and concord; to promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the increase of science among them and us; and, generally to grant unto all mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as He alone knows to be best.

Given under my hand, at the city of New York, the 3d day of October, A.D. 1789.

-George Washington

http://wilstar.com/holidays/wash_thanks.html

Darling, Obama's not involved in this story.

Take a deep breath.

True.  Obama did say that, sort of.  Stumbling over his words and initially forgetting to say just.

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/did_obama_say_we_are_no_longer.html

Umm, okay.

()

There is a tape out there of Obama saying exactly what jfcmst claims he did - if edited out of  context.  Taking remarks out of context - kind of like what the left did to President Bush to make him look like a moron on TV.

This I find curious. How is Thanksgiving religious? One can be thankful for good fortune without having to believe that some divine power provided said fortune. Even a determinist like me sees value in reflecting on what "luck" I've had.

Actually, here is the exact quote, I did NOT edit his words: "Whatever we once were, we are no longer a Christian nation – at least, not just. We are also a Jewish nation, a Muslim nation, a Buddhist nation, and a Hindu nation, and a nation of nonbelievers."

Imagine if King David had proclaimed that to Israelites and lifted up other gods to the same level of the one true God- God would have wiped him and them off the face of the earth.

The Alien and Sedition Acts were clearly unconstitutional, for instance.

I may be forgetting my Old Testament, but I don't believe God smote Solomon.

So it's okay for him to do it because the evil Left supposedly did it first?

The constitutionality of the Alien and Sedition Acts was questioned by the Anti-Federalists immediately after they were passed.  Two state legislatures denounced them.  And the most odious provisions of the Alien and Sedition Acts were never passed again.  No Supreme Court case was brought against the law, but Marbury v. Madison hadn't been decided yet.

The sheer number of Presidents who have proclaimed days of prayer or fasting - including Washington, Adams, Madison and Lincoln - suggests it is constitutional if not mandatory.

Obama's quote was NOT edited and it was NOT out of context

No matter how common something is, it can still be unconstitutional. "Commonness" is not a constitutionally relevant criterion. Segregation was quite common and actively supported by many Presidents, but it was ultimately ruled unconstitutional.

Can I ask you what you beleive Western Culture entails? 

What do you expect him to do, proclaim all the other gods false and have their followers burned at the stake?  He's simply acknowledging that there are non-Christians in America who are Americans.

Why is this so terrible?  He's giving every person a stake in the country, not just Christians.  I don't know why Republicans have this elitist attitude that Christianity ideology must remain Supreme.  We shouldn't have to interpret constitutional law based on the religions of the Founding Fathers.  We don't know if their opinions would have changed or stayed the same.  For god sakes many of the Founding Fathers intended slavery to be a legal institution, and a large minority didn't beleive in the Freedoms of Speech we currently have.   The interpretation of the Constition should be interpreted the way modern society sees fit.   

I'm with the Red staters on this one.  Lets kill Christmas next.

Commonness is absolutely a relevant criterion when interpreting the Constitution, especially when what is common was so back around the time of the founding.  Original intent matters to the Supreme Court - and what the Founders did is highly relevant.

I suppose this doesn't matter to liberals who believe that the Constitution should be read to mean whatever they think it means in light of current circumstances.  But the current Supreme Court doesn't think that way.

Well, bring it on!

()

I King 11:11   Wherefore the LORD said unto Solomon, "Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and thou hast not kept My covenant and My statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant. 12    Notwithstanding in thy days I will not do it for David thy father's sake: but I will rend it out of the hand of thy son. 13    Howbeit I will not rend away all the kingdom; but will give one tribe to thy son for David My servant's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake which I have chosen."

Solomon was the cause of Israel splitting into two nations, which didn't turn out well

Good. Taxpayer money shouldn't be wasted in any form by encouraging prayer. It's the job of pastors, priests, and other such people to encourage people to pray, not the government.

Good, it was an explicit pronouncement of Christian preference.  It's understandable that so many Christians are apprehensive about their steel grip being eased off this country.  But they have to remember that it is not just their country and an appeal to majority is not a legitimate claim to dominance.  That's the same logical fallacy used against black people getting rights as well.  It's a real test of character to be able to stand for what's right even when you don't have to.  And we all know Christians could easily force us down an even more insane path, but we thankfully have well-rounded Christians like Obama in high posts.

There is nothing inherently Christian about prayer or the National Day of Prayer.  And your distrust of Christians is extremely disturbing.

As for Obama:

Because history is sure on the side of Christians being peaceful and restrained in the hands of extreme power.  What is it about my distrust so "extremely disturbing"?  Those are some strong words.

And let's not pretend it isn't all about Christians, that much is obvious.  Regardless, there is something inherently religious about prayer, something the United States is not.  Every American should be able to call the government theirs, millions cannot with things like this in place.

Because it is extremely irrational in the US context.  Christians have never been anything but peaceful and restrained in the US, and never really had extreme power.  And because it's a sign of disrespect for people with legitimately held religious beliefs, one step up from anti-Semitism.  

A day of prayer ISN'T all about Christians.  It's about prayer - OPTIONAL prayer.  No one is being forced to pray to anyone. I suppose by your logic, millions of Christians and other religious Americans and even the not-so-religious who still pray at times ought not to be able to call the government theirs since it cannot even call for an optional day of prayer.

Let's ban Thanksgiving, too, while we're at it.  And forget about Christmas.  That's just another day - so let's force government employees to work it.

What the heck is the point of a 'day of prayer' anyway?

To... promote prayer. Which is an inherently Abrahamic (if not necessarily Christian) notion. Although of course in the United States it is tantamount to a day of Christian prayer.

Precisely. How is it that our resident theocrats can, on the one hand, denounce the size of the Federal government, and then, breathlessly, turn around and argue it ought to prop up their preferred denomination with the other?

And the Obama administration is too afraid to take such a stance......

It's all a political ploy, of course. We'll see what happens as Obama more and more positions himself as a populist, which has in fact been happening belowgrounds. We'll see the wheat fall away from the chaff then, as the mobilized Christian masses abandon all pretense to a small-government philosophy.

Are you kidding? Tons of evil has been done by Christians with their religion as justification in the history of this nation, some of it even against other Christians!


Let's suppose we accept the notion that the day of prayer wasn't established for Christians. So what? I'm an atheist - why should even a cent of my tax dollars be used to encourage an act that is entirely religious?

If people want to pray, they can. Nobody is stopping them. Nobody is stopping churches from holding their own prayer day either. Besides, isn't prayer supposed to be something you do year round?


Thanksgiving and Christmas are secularized enough that it really isn't necessary to do that.

This lawsuit and ruling on this crucial issue are so, so helpful to progressive causes.

Moreso to the libertarian cause, I should think.

     I would agree. While it helps reduce the role of religion in government, it can also be seen as an expression of the libertarian notion that no person should be coerced into action by the government, in this case into funding a project that s/he does not wish to fund.

Also, part of the point of government holidays is to avoid being open on days when your employees will not want to work/take sick days if they're not given the day off. Consider what happens in NYC offices on Rosh Hashanah, and imagine that taking place all across the country. Not worth being open.

Name one thing.  Your attitude towards Christians and religious people is extremely intolerant.


It costs NOTHING more to proclaim a day a national day of prayer than it does to proclaim it Martin Luther King Day, Lincoln's Birthday or Hispanic or Womens' History Month.  In fact, those cost more to declare those holidays because government offices are closed.  If I don't like Martin Luther King or Lincoln, or if I'm not Hispanic or a woman why should one cent of my tax dollars be used to encourage days honoring those people or groups?

Atheism IS a religion.  By making the mere mention of other religions in a proclamation taboo, the government is establishing atheism as the state religion.


Who are we giving thanks to?  What's Christmas about?  Those holidays aren't secular at all - especially CHRISTmas.

Why is "tolerance" made into a virtue with you? Both Dibble and I are libertarians, not liberals; we don't feel the need to refrain from stepping on the toes of your precious special interests. I've noticed that the whining of Christian Dominionists has taken on an increasingly cosmopolitan tone in recent years - it stinks of special pleading. There's no reason to be tolerant towards the dominant group in American society.

We ought to treat religions like competitors in a market; what's good for the goose is good for the gander. What we do not need is the State supporting one or the other and thereby monopolizing the marketplace of ideas.

The state isn't supporting any religion by a national day of prayer any more than it is with Thanksgiving or CHRISTmas. 

A true Libertarian would RESPECT the rights of religious people, not mock them or treat them like second-class citizens.  Liberty includes the liberty to worship the God you want - or not.  Many self-proclaimed libertarians simply don't understand that.

No government should have a national day of prayer because it endorses religion in general. Having a secularized government that doesn't endorse any religion/lack of religion is the ideal. Even if the government's practice of setting days of worship is very unimportant, it doesn't change the fact that it is a slap in the face to the non-religious for the government to promote prayer.

Thanksgiving?

A secularized government endorses secular humanism and atheism - a LACK OF BELIEF IN GOD - by default.  Inaction IS action.  

It is a slap in the face to religious peoples for the government not to hold optional days of prayer out of respect for those who are religious in this country.  ESPECIALLY when the US government has done so since before the founding of this country.

So, you do not believe that church and state can be separated? That's interesting...

Absolute nonsense. Does the government endorse opposition to anything else by failing to have a day celebrating it? (Say, perhaps, Nagorno-Karabakhian independence) No, of course not. Why does religion get special treatment?

Has the government proclaimed Nagorno-Karabajkhian independence or dependence day every year?  No.

The phrase "separation of church and state" appear nowhere in the constitution.

Exactly my point about you and your ilk: you absolutely love Big Government if it's supporting your values, propping them up, and immunizing them from fair criticism. You're no better than the liberals you lambaste, and are, in fact, quite worse, as you are a majoritarian.

Calling for a national day of prayer doesn't prop up anyone's values or immunize them from criticism.  It is nothing more than a sign of respect for the history and traditions of this country, going back to the days of the founding.   Thanksgiving started as a national day of prayer to give thanks to God (yes GOD) for this country - as proclamations of evil Presidents from Washington to Lincoln to Bush to Obama clearly show.  That's the next thing intolerant atheists like you will try to ban because it doesn't fit your agenda to completely remove religion from the public sphere - something the founders never advocated for or contemplated and isn't even possible, because removing religion from the public sphere is an endorsement of atheism and secular humanism, which are religions in their own rights.  As I said before, the phrase "separation of church and state" appears nowhere in the Constitution.

I do not love big government.  Proclaiming a national day of prayer costs practically nothing.  Proclaiming Martin Luther King Day or Independence Day or Black History Month costs a hell of a lot more - yet is perfectly acceptable.  

So? Who cares about "the traditions of this country"? I certainly don't. What right have you to force such things on me, if I choose not to partake of them?


John Adams (the second President of the United States)

Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli (June 7, 1797). Article 11 states:
“The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.”

From a letter to Charles Cushing (October 19, 1756):
“Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, ‘this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.’”

From a letter to Thomas Jefferson:
“I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved — the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!”

Additional quotes from John Adams:
“Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?”

“The Doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.”

“...Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.”


Thomas Jefferson (the third President of the United States)

Jefferson’s interpretation of the first amendment in a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association (January 1, 1802):
“Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between church and State.”

From Jefferson’s biography:
“...an amendment was proposed by inserting the words, ‘Jesus Christ...the holy author of our religion,’ which was rejected ‘By a great majority in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammedan, the Hindoo and the Infidel of every denomination.’”

Jefferson’s “The Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom”:
“Our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, more than on our opinions in physics and geometry....The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.”

From Thomas Jefferson’s Bible:
“The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.”

Jefferson’s Notes on Virginia:
“Reason and persuasion are the only practicable instruments. To make way for these free inquiry must be indulged; how can we wish others to indulge it while we refuse ourselves? But every state, says an inquisitor, has established some religion. No two, say I, have established the same. Is this a proof of the infallibility of establishments?”

Additional quotes from Thomas Jefferson:
“It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.”

“They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition of their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the alter of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.”

“I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.”

“In every country and in every age the priest has been hostile to liberty; he is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.”

“Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear....Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences. If it end in a belief that there is no God, you will find incitements to virtue on the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise and in the love of others which it will procure for you.”

“Christianity...[has become] the most perverted system that ever shone on man....Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus.”

“...that our civil rights have no dependence on religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics and geometry.”


James Madison (the fourth President of the United States)

Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments:
“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise....During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.”

Additional quote from James Madison:
“Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”


Benjamin Franklin

From Franklin’s autobiography, p. 66:
“My parents had given me betimes religious impressions, and I received from my infancy a pious education in the principles of Calvinism. But scarcely was I arrived at fifteen years of age, when, after having doubted in turn of different tenets, according as I found them combated in the different books that I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself.”

From Franklin’s autobiography, p. 66:
“...Some books against Deism fell into my hands....It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quote to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations, in short, I soon became a thorough Deist.”


Thomas Paine

From The Age of Reason, pp. 8–9:
“I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of....Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and of my own part, I disbelieve them all.”

From The Age of Reason:
“All natural institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.”

From The Age of Reason:
“The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion.”

From The Age of Reason:
“What is it the Bible teaches us? — rapine, cruelty, and murder.”

From The Age of Reason:
“Loving of enemies is another dogma of feigned morality, and has beside no meaning....Those who preach the doctrine of loving their enemies are in general the greatest prosecutors, and they act consistently by so doing; for the doctrine is hypocritical, and it is natural that hypocrisy should act the reverse of what it preaches.”

From The Age of Reason:
“The Bible was established altogether by the sword, and that in the worst use of it — not to terrify but to extirpate.”

Additional quote from Thomas Paine:
“It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible.”


Ethan Allen

From Religion of the American Enlightenment:
“Denominated a Deist, the reality of which I have never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian.”


They're not acceptable to me, either. Get rid of all of them, including Independence Day; the State simply should not be in the business of enforcing any set of values.

From the Declaration of Independence:

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

From George Washington's Thanksgiving Declaration:

Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor; and Whereas both Houses of Congress have, by their joint committee, requested me to "recommend to the people of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness:"

Now, therefore, I do recommend and assign Thursday, the 26th day of November next, to be devoted by the people of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being who is the beneficent author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be; that we may then all unite in rendering unto Him our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and protection of the people of this country previous to their becoming a nation; for the signal and manifold mercies and the favorable interpositions of His providence in the course and conclusion of the late war; for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty which we have since enjoyed; for the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been enable to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national one now lately instituted for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed, and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and, in general, for all the great and various favors which He has been pleased to confer upon us.

From John Adams' National Day of Fasting and Prayer Proclamation:

AS the safety and prosperity of nations ultimately and essentially depend on the protection and blessing of Almighty God; and the national acknowledgment of this truth is not only an indispensable duty which the people owe to Him, but a duty whose natural influence is favorable to the promotion of that morality and piety, without which social happiness cannot exist, nor the blessings of a free government be enjoyed; and as this duty, at all times incumbent, is so especially in seasons of difficulty and of danger, when existing or threatening calamities, the just judgments of God against prevalent iniquity are a loud call to repentance and reformation; and as the United States of America are at present placed in a hazardous and afflictive situation, by the unfriendly disposition, conduct and demands of a foreign power, evinced by repeated refusals to receive our messengers of reconciliation and peace, by depredations on our commerce, and the infliction of injuries on very many of our fellow citizens, while engaged in their lawful business on the seas: —Under these considerations it has appeared to me that the duty of imploring the mercy and benediction of Heaven on our country, demands at this time a special attention from its inhabitants.

I HAVE therefore thought it fit to recommend, that Wednesday, the 9th day of May next be observed throughout the United States, as a day of Solemn Humiliation, Fasting and Prayer; That the citizens of these states, abstaining on that day from their customary worldly occupations, offer their devout addresses to the Father of Mercies, agreeably to those forms or methods which they have severally adopted as the most suitable and becoming: That all religious congregations do, with the deepest humility, acknowledge before GOD the manifold sins and transgressions with which we are justly chargeable as individuals and as a nation; beseeching him, at the same time, of his infinite Grace, through the Redeemer of the world, freely to remit all our offences, and to incline us, by his holy spirit, to that sincere repentance and reformation which may afford us reason to hope for his inestimable favor and heavenly benediction; That it be made the subject of particular and earnest supplication, that our country may be protected from all the dangers which threaten it; that our civil and religious privileges may be preserved inviolate, and perpetuated to the latest generations; that our public councils and magistrates may be especially enlightened and directed at this critical period; that the American people may be united in those bonds of amity and mutual confidence, and inspired with that vigor and fortitude by which they have in times past been so highly distinguished, and by which they have obtained such invaluable advantages:

From Abraham Lincoln's Thanksgiving Proclamation:

The year that is drawing towards its close, has been filled with the blessings of fruitful fields and healthful skies. To these bounties, which are so constantly enjoyed that we are prone to forget the source from which they come, others have been added, which are of so extraordinary a nature, that they cannot fail to penetrate and soften even the heart which is habitually insensible to the ever watchful providence of Almighty God. In the midst of a civil war of unequaled magnitude and severity, which has sometimes seemed to foreign States to invite and to provoke their aggression, peace has been preserved with all nations, order has been maintained, the laws have been respected and obeyed, and harmony has prevailed everywhere except in the theatre of military conflict; while that theatre has been greatly contracted by the advancing armies and navies of the Union. Needful diversions of wealth and of strength from the fields of peaceful industry to the national defence, have not arrested the plough, the shuttle or the ship; the axe has enlarged the borders of our settlements, and the mines, as well of iron and coal as of the precious metals, have yielded even more abundantly than heretofore. Population has steadily increased, notwithstanding the waste that has been made in the camp, the siege and the battle-field; and the country, rejoicing in the consiousness of augmented strength and vigor, is permitted to expect continuance of years with large increase of freedom. No human counsel hath devised nor hath any mortal hand worked out these great things. They are the gracious gifts of the Most High God, who, while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy. It has seemed to me fit and proper that they should be solemnly, reverently and gratefully acknowledged as with one heart and one voice by the whole American People. I do therefore invite my fellow citizens in every part of the United States, and also those who are at sea and those who are sojourning in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next, as a day of Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens. And I recommend to them that while offering up the ascriptions justly due to Him for such singular deliverances and blessings, they do also, with humble penitence for our national perverseness and disobedience, commend to His tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners or sufferers in the lamentable civil strife in which we are unavoidably engaged, and fervently implore the interposition of the Almighty Hand to heal the wounds of the nation and to restore it as soon as may be consistent with the Divine purposes to the full enjoyment of peace, harmony, tranquillity and Union.

In testimony whereof, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the Seal of the United States to be affixed.

I have produced thirty quotes from the Framers detailing their opinions on Christianity. You produced two, and another from a man no libertarian believes to deserve to be grouped with the others, all dealing with vague references to a non-specific God. I think I trump you here.

The people who settled the United States were a Christian people. It is foolish to deny our nation's heritage.

Benjamin Franklin? Thomas Jefferson? Thomas Paine? I do not deny that the average citizenry, in the main, were Christian. I certainly deny that the Framers were a homogeneous conglomerate of Christians.

It's awfully fishy how suspicious you act when this subject is broached. It's almost like you're selective in your libertarian positions.

My positions are entirely consistent with my anarchist philosophy.

It is just a fact that religion has played an important role in the lives and communities of many Americans going back to before the nation was even founded.

Sure. That hardly means anyone ought to be bound by what they did today. Looming, weaving, basket-making and cow-milking were also important in their lives and communities; it hardly means anyone ought to want to preserve those traditions.

That doesn't follow logically at all. Economic factors are not the same thing as moral and social factors.

Once again, a national day of prayer has NOTHING TO DO WITH CHRISTIANITY in particular.  It is non-denominational and not  Christians pray.  Jews pray.  Muslims pray.  Buddhists pray.  Hindus pray.  Animists pray.  Ancestor worshipers pray.  Even polytheists and some agnostics and atheists pray.

Some of the Founders were deists.  So what?  That has nothing to do with a national day of prayer.

To the contrary; they're often the same thing - religious elements are often nothing more than economic elements that have been one abstracted from reality.


Garbage. You know very well that you intend to get Christianity's foot into the door of the government and thereby prop them both up mutually. I'm onto you, Statist.

So?

Easy enough - slavery.

Biblical scripture was used to justify slavery. For instance in the late 1700s Reverend William Graham, an instructor at Liberty Hall Academy, would annually lecture the graduating senior class about the value of slavery and used the Bible as his primary defense for it. For him and many others like him Christianity wasn't meant to change social institutions but rather to convert people and bring them to salvation. Slavery was just another position in which you might become saved. They certainly had quite a bit of scripture to justify this - I'll be glad to tell you exactly which passages in your Bible, if you'd like.

Oh, but it doesn't stop in just using it to justify slavery to their fellow white men. They also used it as a means of keeping the slaves in line. By indoctrinating them into Christianity they could use those passages to encourage slaves to be obedient to their earthly masters in exchange for their promised heavenly reward, as well as implying that disobeying their masters would be perceived by God as disobeying him. Add in the enforced illiteracy and you have it so the slaves can't even read the Bible for themselves, so they could use the dogma without having the slaves able to read from the source of the authority themselves.

Or do you think that the systematic oppression of millions of people is "peaceful and restrained"?


My attitude is extremely tolerant. For one thing I don't go around killing them because they don't believe the same things I do. The same can't be said for how Christians have treated non-believers, which often included differing sects of Christianity, for much of their history. Catholics and Protestants were at eachother's throats for quite a while, and in many ways still are.


Because those aren't religious. They are encouraging people to learn about actual historical events and such. However you may have a point on racial and gender preferences on the latter two, which could make it unconstitutional on other grounds.

I wouldn't support National Godlessness Day being government endorsed, even if I might like such a day to exist. Religion and government need to remain separated as possible.


Atheism is not a religion. What dogma do atheists have that make us a religious order? Let me give you a hint - the answer is none. Atheism is simply the lack of a certain kind of belief. The government also isn't actively encouraging atheism, nor would it constitutionally be allowed to - a National Day of Encouraging Godless Living would be just as unconstitutional as National Prayer Day.


1. I don't know about you, but I give thanks to my friends and family. They are there for me, providing love and support for me whenever I need it. Thanksgiving is just a good time for me to go visit them, share our thanks for one another, and eat some good food. God doesn't really enter the equation as far as I'm concerned. For the believing members of my family it might, but that's not really a concern.
2. Christmas isn't even originally a Christian holiday. It's origins come from pagan holidays. Read up on your history. Besides, what do Santa Clause, flying reindeer, elves, snowmen, decorated trees, and toys have to do with Jesus? Even the Japanese celebrate Christmas en masse, and only half a percent or so of the population there is Christian. Secularized enough for you?

The nature of holidays change with time. Get over it.

Christianity is part of our nation's heritage, and of its national character. To deny this is foolish.

Wow, Dibble, LOL at the idea that Christianity was responsible for slavery.

Slavery was practiced around the world for thousands of years without second thoughts. It only became abolished and taboo in the United States by the earnest efforts of good Christian men and women who were inspired by their faith to stand up in favor of abolition.

Which has any bearing whatsoever on we, the living -- how, exactly?

Gosh, I wish this issue would just go away. It effectively means nothing, and is a waste of time. Heck I say "under God" when reciting the pledge, even though I strongly doubt that "He" exists. It is just a sign of showing respect. Enough already!

Straw man. I never claimed it was responsible for it, nor that it originated with it. It existed before even Judaism.

What I did claim was that it was used as a justification for it's continuation in this nation for a long time, as well as used as a tool to control the slaves. I even provided a specific example. If you care to actually refute these facts then please do so.


Just because some Christians were against it doesn't mean some Christians weren't for it, and it doesn't mean that those that were for it didn't use their religion to justify it.

How about we crack open our Bibles?

"However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you.  You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land.  You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance.  You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way."  (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

"If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years.  Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom.  If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year.  But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him.  If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master.  But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children.  I would rather not go free.'  If he does this, his master must present him before God.  Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl.  After that, the slave will belong to his master forever."  (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

"When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.  If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again.  But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her.  And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter.  If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife.  If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment."  (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished.  If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property."  (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear.  Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ."  (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

"Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed.  If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful.  You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts.  Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them." (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

"The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it.  "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly.  Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given.""  (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

OK. What's your point?

So Christianity should be recognized as part of this National Day of Prayer.

Why should the State be a part of enforcing a National Day of Prayer in the first?

The only reason why a Christian Elitist would argue to keep the National Day of Prayer is to re-establish Christian dominance in the country.  

The Founding Father argument is irrelevent for anyone with half a brain.  It doesn't matter what the Founding Fathers thought.  They lived in the 1700s and we live in 2010, where society, culture, morals, and economic standards are very different.  Why would we continue to follow old ways of thinking.  We are suppose to advance thought, not remain stagnant.

Also, who cares if Christianity is part of our Nation's heritage?  Slavery is also part of the Nation's heritage, but I don't see any Christians fighting for that policy anymore.  Frankly, I don't beleive Christians would feel the same way if Islam was part of our National Heritage, and the Government closed down to celebrate Ramadan.    

I'm going to have to disagree with you somewhat here. What they thought does matter, in that it gives us a window into what they intended when they wrote the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. This is a very valuable tool when it comes to interpreting these documents, which may be very necessary when trying to apply them to modern concepts and issues that didn't exist at the time.

That said I do agree that we can't just blindly follow their mode of thought. Of course, that's why there's an amendment process. We can change what we need to, when we need to.

Oh yes, the old slavery canard.  A system that was perpetrated for centuries, including a millennium or more before Christianity even began is Christianity's fault, even when it is Christians who stopped the practice in the first place.  The Muslim Arab traders who enslaved Africans aren't culpable, nor are the African tribesman who sold people from opposing tribes into bondage.  Slavery was all the fault of evil White Christian male oppressors.

Spare me the politically correct nonsense.


Your attitude is far from tolerant.  You want to take religion out of the public square and declare it something not worthy of political debate.  You want to pretend it doesn't exist.  It does.


You can't have an understanding of history without understanding religion.   National days of prayer are ingrained in this nation's history from the start.  To deny such is to deny the history of this country.


Atheists have a very simple dogma - God doesn't exist.  It is as incapable of proof as proving a Christian God or Muslim Allah exists.  Yet atheists blindly adhere to such a view in the absence of proof.  Agnosticism is an absence of belief about the existence of God.  Atheism is the BELIEF that there is no God.  It IS a religion.  An atheist's church is the church of secular humanism, in which God shouldn't matter in public or political affairs.  Part of many atheists' creed is to belittle those who believe in God.


1.  Thanksgiving has been proclaimed by American Presidents from the beginning of this Republic as a day of prayer.  The thanks is to be given to God.
2. CHRISTmas is a Christian holiday commemorating the birth of Jesus Christ.  Santa Claus is a Christian SAINT - jolly old St. Nick did exist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas), and had a reputation of giving gifts.  That Japanese celebrate CHRISTmas doesn't make it any less of a day to commemorate the birth of Jesus Christ.

Um that's because Islam is not part of our nation's heritage. If we were talking about Saudi Arabia or Pakistan, of course I would say they should celebrate their own Islamic heritage.

Does not follow.

As I pointed out to Libertas, this is a straw man. I never claimed that Christianity was solely to blame for slavery, or even starting it. What I did claim was that Christians used their religion as justification for maintaining it in this country as well as a tool to control their slaves. This is historical fact and you have not done one single thing to refute it. I even went so far as to provide a specific example. Here's some more:

"[Slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts." Jefferson Davis, 1861

"The right of holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example." Rev. R. Furman, D.D., a Baptist pastor from South Carolina, 1838

How the hell is it "politically correct nonsense" to point out the historically verified FACT that Christianity was used to justify this barbarity?


Straw man again. If someone wants to get up on a soap box in the middle of town square and preach that everyone who disagrees with him his going to roast in hellfire for all eternity, then that's his right and I'll join in the fight against anyone who tries to stop him. I do not want to end all political debate of it because that would be stupid - if we are to ensure that freedom of religion is protected we have to be willing to debate it when it comes up. And I clearly don't want to pretend religion doesn't exist since I'm quite vocal about it's existence. So you fail to make an actual claim about what I believe FOUR TIMES NOW. (these three and the slavery thing) Talk about intellectual dishonesty at its finest.


I have no intent do deny the influence, be it good, bad, or neutral, of religion on the history of this country and the world in general. To do so would be idiotic. For this reason I am supportive of teaching these kinds of subjects in schools, so long as they are taught objectively. If a national day or week or month of sorts is deemed necessary to encourage learning of these things, a national day of prayer does not do that - instead a national month of theological history or something of that nature would be appropriate.


Incorrect. Not all atheists believe God doesn't exist. Some believe that there definitely is no deities, some believe there is a possibility that that one or more does, some believe that some specific gods others define don't exist but there might be something that might constitute a God, etc. The one and only thing atheism does imply is that there is a lack of a belief in a deity.


Again, not true for the reasons stated - not all atheists believe the same things. Atheism only requires not believing in a god, not specifically believing any doesn't exist. Besides, by this logic you would have to consider NOT believing in Zeus, leprechauns, invisible pink unicorns, and flying spaghetti monsters a religion too. Not believing something doesn't make that not believing a religion.


You have your definitions mixed up. Agnosticism implies a lack of knowledge - the word literally means "without knowledge". Atheism implies a lack of belief in gods - it literally means "without gods". You can actually be, or not be, either. They are not mutually exclusive. Atheism vs. theism is about belief, gnosticism vs. agnosticism is about knowledge. Roughly speaking it translates to this:

Agnostic theist - "I believe there is a god or gods, but I am not certain they actually exist"
Gnostic theist - "I believe in a god or gods and know for sure that the god or gods "
Agnostic atheist - "I do not believe in any gods, but I do not know for certain if any exist or not"
Gnostic atheist - "I do not believe in any gods and know for sure there are no gods"

Of course there are ever more subcategories, as well as degrees of gnosticism vs. agnosticism.


No, it isn't. There is no dogma or church.


1. Secular humanism is a philosophical concept, not a church.
2. Again, false. Not all atheists are secular humanists.


Which doesn't have anything to do with whether it's a religion or not. You might as well say that conservativism is a religion because part of many conservatives' creed is to belittle liberals.


Except it isn't always given to God. Again, it's been secularized enough that atheists aren't going to care.


The date on which it was decided to celebrate it, Dec. 25th, is also the date on which the ancient Babylonians celebrated the "birthday" of Mithra. (Son of Isis, Goddess of Nature) Partying, excessive drinking and eating, and gift giving were part of this festival. Sound familiar? After various changes it eventually became the Roman pagan event known as Saturnalia, which lasted from Dec 17th to Dec 25th. Interestingly one of the traditions of this festival was consuming human-shaped biscuits. Sound familiar? In the 4th century Christian leaders attempted to change this event into a Christian one in order to win over converts, but since the festival had little to do with Jesus they decided to name the concluding day, the 25th, as the savior's birthday. Unfortunately for them it didn't work out so well, and the earliest Christmases were celebrated much in the same way Saturnalia had always been - drinking, sexual indulgence, and singing naked in the streets. Again, doesn't that last part sound familiar... well, the singing that is, not the nakedness. ;D

So yes, Christmas is really just a bastardized pagan festival that has now become bastardized itself. As I said, holidays change, get over it. Google "origins of Christmas" if you don't believe me.


St. Nick didn't have flying reindeer, elves, talking snowmen, etc., in case you haven't noticed.


For you maybe, but as I said the holiday itself has largely been secularized. Many atheists in this country and others, including myself, celebrate it. There are also secular reasons to allow it to be a national holiday even if it was still a primarily religious holiday - it's just not practical to require everyone to come into work on a day when the vast majority aren't coming into work.

Wow, I was fully ready to come back to this and have a field day, but you guys are doing a pretty good job exposing the religious side's shoddy appeal to majority.

Separation of church and state my ass.  You'd be perfectly happy to turn us into a Holy Roman Empire; freedom of religion be damned!

Yes fezzy those religious are so sneaky w/their evil plot to turn us into a theocracy.

Good. I'd also like to see the line "Under God" removed from the National Anthem, or at least make it possible for people who don't beleive in God not to say that line.

I never said Islam was part of our Nation's heritage.  The example was a hypothetical.

Fine, but I'm not okay with it.  I just don't beleive its government's role to publicize religion.  This policy is not about promoting the Country's heritage; its about ingraining religious thought and symbols in our government.  Its also a waste of my tax money.  I shouldn't have to pay so politicians can pray in a Government building.      

I like your style John Dibble.

At least where I'm from (friggin Oklahoma) kids weren't forced to say the Pledge of Allegiance.  Sure, we had to stand up, but none of the teachers ever really forced anybody to say the Pledge.  Hell I'm pretty sure we could even get away with butchering the Pledge.
I don't care what's in the Pledge so long as I AM NOT REQUIRED BY LAW TO RECITE IT (the idea of pledging allegiance to a supposedly free country never made much sense to me).

Nobody is forced to say it in Arlington, either.  Hell, we don't necessarily need to stand up.

Wait wait wait.  Thanksgiving is supposed to be giving thanks to God?!  I've always been giving thanks to the Indians who helped out the Christian settlers, shortly before we largely wiped them out and sent them to live on 'reservations'.  I've never given thanks to "God", and I doubt I would even if I believed in such a thing.

Nope, it's God; you were wrong.

Haha, I don't really care what you religious folks get up to, but I'll do it the way I want, ok?  It's a pretty stupid and hypocritical holiday, in any case.

Yes, you were wrong, glad that's clarified.

"ME LIBERTAS.  ME WIN DEBATE."

Like I said, you religious folks can do what you want.  Besides, the origins of both holidays are secular, were then adopted by Christians for their own ends, and eventually became secular again.  You just need to accept that.

Yes, I know I won the debate. Not hard to do when you are my debate opponent. Thanksgiving was founded as a holiday to give thanks to God whether you choose to recognize that or not.

Aw, bless.  You've given yourself a point in your imaginary scoreboard, haven't you?

Or perhaps not.  I never claimed to have not recognized the religious element of Thanksgiving.  My point is that, like Christmas, any religious background has been shoved back out of the secular mainstream.  I've never given thanks to "God" at that time of year.

Why do you hate turkey, Joe?  That's like hating America.  ;)

Joe doesn't hate turkeys, he just thinks they are evil, sinful, wretched creatures who deserve to be roasted in ovens.

The fact that you view your beliefs as fact does not mean that policy makers should have to abide by them. The fact is that 'god' did a lot of things in the past, yet he mysteriously does nothing now.

Assuming something that you can not prove to be 100% infallible and correct, makes you an ignorant human being.

Until I heard this news I wasn't even aware that there was a National Day of Prayer.  It's not on any of my calendars, like Thanksgiving and Independence Day and Full Moon are.  I do seem to recall hearing, from time to time, of the President having a national prayer day breakfast, now that I think about it, but I don't recall anyone other than the president ever celebrating it.  Maybe it never caught on with the public, or never achieved the commercial, materialistic, amd irreligious success, replete with football games and conspicuous consumption of food and ale, that we afford other holidays like Christmas or Saint Patrick's Day or Thanksgiving. 

I guess I could go either way with this.  I think I agree with the judge's conclusion that the government hasn't any business deciding whether or when people should pray, but then its creation by the Congress doesn't seemed to have harmed anyone.  Still, its demise won't hurt the NFL, Macy's, beer sales, fast food markets, or the greeting card industry so the decision isn't likely to cut into American culture in any meaningful way.

There is no need for a "Day of Prayer," however, the Judge has it wrong.  The Day of Prayer proclomation doesn't establish a religion or does it require people to participate in it.  There for, it does not violate the first amendment. 

I think governments are free to encourage people to take legal voluntary actions, provided there is no penalty for not doing so.

Yes, I read something similar in a confidential homosexual agenda memo.

There's a reason why that memo I sent you had CONFIDENTIAL across the top, Ebowed.  >:|