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Title: God created evil Post by: fezzyfestoon on May 31, 2010, 02:19:50 PM I had a really long (inebriated) conversation with my very Baptist best friend last night about where evil came from. She tried to find it in the Bible, but no luck. I was curious as to what any of you guys who know the Bible a little better than I do know about where it came from. I know that the tree gave Adam and Eve the knowledge of good and evil, and that Satan is like the evil-meister, but if God created everything then how could something purely good create the opposite? It says that Satan was perfectly created, but obviously either that's not true or God purposefully created evil, making him less than pure good.
Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl on May 31, 2010, 03:17:35 PM God created all things good. Evil is not its own nature, but rather, the absence of God, and thus, the absence of good.
An analogy would be that "cold" does not really exist, but is simply the absence of heat. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Kaine for Senate '18 on May 31, 2010, 03:32:14 PM God created all things good. Evil is not its own nature, but rather, the absence of God, and thus, the absence of good. An analogy would be that "cold" does not really exist, but is simply the absence of heat. Thanks Augustine ::) Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl on May 31, 2010, 04:31:48 PM Quote from: Assemblyman of the Glorious Region Known as the Mideast Ben on May 31, 2010, 03:32:14 PM God created all things good. Evil is not its own nature, but rather, the absence of God, and thus, the absence of good. An analogy would be that "cold" does not really exist, but is simply the absence of heat. Thanks Augustine ::) You're welcome Benjamin. :D Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Associate Justice PiT on May 31, 2010, 04:44:47 PM God created all things good. Evil is not its own nature, but rather, the absence of God, and thus, the absence of good. An analogy would be that "cold" does not really exist, but is simply the absence of heat. What exactly is the "absence of God"? Could it be merely the absence of belief? Or rather, not living in the way that God prescribes? Or maybe something different entirely? Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl on May 31, 2010, 04:57:48 PM God created all things good. Evil is not its own nature, but rather, the absence of God, and thus, the absence of good. An analogy would be that "cold" does not really exist, but is simply the absence of heat. What exactly is the "absence of God"? Could it be merely the absence of belief? Or rather, not living in the way that God prescribes? Or maybe something different entirely? As far as humanity is concerned, it is manifested as disobedience to God out of pride. A man who puts himself in the place of God loses touch with what is good. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Associate Justice PiT on May 31, 2010, 05:28:32 PM God created all things good. Evil is not its own nature, but rather, the absence of God, and thus, the absence of good. An analogy would be that "cold" does not really exist, but is simply the absence of heat. What exactly is the "absence of God"? Could it be merely the absence of belief? Or rather, not living in the way that God prescribes? Or maybe something different entirely? As far as humanity is concerned, it is manifested as disobedience to God out of pride. A man who puts himself in the place of God loses touch with what is good. That makes sense, since that is what Satan was considered to have done. In that case, would Max Stirner be considered to be advocating disobedience out of pride in the quote at the bottom of my post? Sorry if it's a rather elementary question, but I am trying to determine what exactly is considered acceptable & unacceptable behaviour in Christian doctrine. Quote God and mankind have concerned themselves for nothing, for nothing but themselves. Let me then likewise concern myself for myself, who am equally with God the nothing of all others, who am my all, who am the only one. If God, if mankind, as you affirm, have substance enough in themselves to be all in all to themselves, then I feel that I shall still less lack that, and that I shall have no complaint to make of my "emptiness." I am not nothing in the sense of emptiness, but I am the creative nothing, the nothing out of which I myself as creator create everything. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl on May 31, 2010, 05:51:14 PM God created all things good. Evil is not its own nature, but rather, the absence of God, and thus, the absence of good. An analogy would be that "cold" does not really exist, but is simply the absence of heat. What exactly is the "absence of God"? Could it be merely the absence of belief? Or rather, not living in the way that God prescribes? Or maybe something different entirely? As far as humanity is concerned, it is manifested as disobedience to God out of pride. A man who puts himself in the place of God loses touch with what is good. That makes sense, since that is what Satan was considered to have done. In that case, would Max Stirner be considered to be advocating disobedience out of pride in the quote at the bottom of my post? Sorry if it's a rather elementary question, but I am trying to determine what exactly is considered acceptable & unacceptable behaviour in Christian doctrine. Quote God and mankind have concerned themselves for nothing, for nothing but themselves. Let me then likewise concern myself for myself, who am equally with God the nothing of all others, who am my all, who am the only one. If God, if mankind, as you affirm, have substance enough in themselves to be all in all to themselves, then I feel that I shall still less lack that, and that I shall have no complaint to make of my "emptiness." I am not nothing in the sense of emptiness, but I am the creative nothing, the nothing out of which I myself as creator create everything. Based on what you have posted, I would say that is an example of what I just described. Nothing original about it, though. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Associate Justice PiT on May 31, 2010, 05:57:47 PM God created all things good. Evil is not its own nature, but rather, the absence of God, and thus, the absence of good. An analogy would be that "cold" does not really exist, but is simply the absence of heat. What exactly is the "absence of God"? Could it be merely the absence of belief? Or rather, not living in the way that God prescribes? Or maybe something different entirely? As far as humanity is concerned, it is manifested as disobedience to God out of pride. A man who puts himself in the place of God loses touch with what is good. That makes sense, since that is what Satan was considered to have done. In that case, would Max Stirner be considered to be advocating disobedience out of pride in the quote at the bottom of my post? Sorry if it's a rather elementary question, but I am trying to determine what exactly is considered acceptable & unacceptable behaviour in Christian doctrine. Quote God and mankind have concerned themselves for nothing, for nothing but themselves. Let me then likewise concern myself for myself, who am equally with God the nothing of all others, who am my all, who am the only one. If God, if mankind, as you affirm, have substance enough in themselves to be all in all to themselves, then I feel that I shall still less lack that, and that I shall have no complaint to make of my "emptiness." I am not nothing in the sense of emptiness, but I am the creative nothing, the nothing out of which I myself as creator create everything. Based on what you have posted, I would say that is an example of what I just described. Nothing original about it, though. Well it was written in 1844, so maybe it was a more revolutionary idea back then. Anyway, thanks for your time. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl on May 31, 2010, 05:59:24 PM God created all things good. Evil is not its own nature, but rather, the absence of God, and thus, the absence of good. An analogy would be that "cold" does not really exist, but is simply the absence of heat. What exactly is the "absence of God"? Could it be merely the absence of belief? Or rather, not living in the way that God prescribes? Or maybe something different entirely? As far as humanity is concerned, it is manifested as disobedience to God out of pride. A man who puts himself in the place of God loses touch with what is good. That makes sense, since that is what Satan was considered to have done. In that case, would Max Stirner be considered to be advocating disobedience out of pride in the quote at the bottom of my post? Sorry if it's a rather elementary question, but I am trying to determine what exactly is considered acceptable & unacceptable behaviour in Christian doctrine. Quote God and mankind have concerned themselves for nothing, for nothing but themselves. Let me then likewise concern myself for myself, who am equally with God the nothing of all others, who am my all, who am the only one. If God, if mankind, as you affirm, have substance enough in themselves to be all in all to themselves, then I feel that I shall still less lack that, and that I shall have no complaint to make of my "emptiness." I am not nothing in the sense of emptiness, but I am the creative nothing, the nothing out of which I myself as creator create everything. Based on what you have posted, I would say that is an example of what I just described. Nothing original about it, though. Well it was written in 1844, so maybe it was a more revolutionary idea back then. Anyway, thanks for your time. Well the whole fall of mankind thing happened quite a bit earlier than 1844, just fyi. :P Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Derek on May 31, 2010, 06:20:36 PM Evil exists in order for us to recognize a greater good. If we were simply happy all the time or things were always perfect, then we wouldn't be aware of such perfection. Furthermore, it is what we consider evil to be that we are dealing with here. Things happen that generate a negative response from individuals; aids in Africa, war in the middle east, children with terminal illnesses, dead puppies. These things are just as much part of life as that which generates a positive response from individuals; weddings, birth of a child, helping at a retirement home, mentoring students. Many would argue that there isn't evil but evil is a state of mind the same as one can be in the state of happiness.
Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Associate Justice PiT on May 31, 2010, 06:32:35 PM God created all things good. Evil is not its own nature, but rather, the absence of God, and thus, the absence of good. An analogy would be that "cold" does not really exist, but is simply the absence of heat. What exactly is the "absence of God"? Could it be merely the absence of belief? Or rather, not living in the way that God prescribes? Or maybe something different entirely? As far as humanity is concerned, it is manifested as disobedience to God out of pride. A man who puts himself in the place of God loses touch with what is good. That makes sense, since that is what Satan was considered to have done. In that case, would Max Stirner be considered to be advocating disobedience out of pride in the quote at the bottom of my post? Sorry if it's a rather elementary question, but I am trying to determine what exactly is considered acceptable & unacceptable behaviour in Christian doctrine. Quote God and mankind have concerned themselves for nothing, for nothing but themselves. Let me then likewise concern myself for myself, who am equally with God the nothing of all others, who am my all, who am the only one. If God, if mankind, as you affirm, have substance enough in themselves to be all in all to themselves, then I feel that I shall still less lack that, and that I shall have no complaint to make of my "emptiness." I am not nothing in the sense of emptiness, but I am the creative nothing, the nothing out of which I myself as creator create everything. Based on what you have posted, I would say that is an example of what I just described. Nothing original about it, though. Well it was written in 1844, so maybe it was a more revolutionary idea back then. Anyway, thanks for your time. Well the whole fall of mankind thing happened quite a bit earlier than 1844, just fyi. :P I mean there have always been people who have been out for themselves, but I cannot think of anyone earlier than Stirner who actually proposed a philosophy of putting one's own interests before all else. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: 12th Doctor on June 01, 2010, 02:40:11 PM This is one of many areas in which you will find that Christianity does not represent one, unified, world view. Over the years, I have come to the conclusion that different sects of Christianity are not, in fact, different groups looking for the right answers to the same questions, but rather groups that so different that they have more in common with other sects of other religions than they do with one another, all looking for totally different answers and asking totally different questions. Theologically, I have almost nothing in common with someone like Bono, or jmfcst, inspite of the fact that we both believe in Jesus Christ, because our views of the nature of God are completely different... and I have much more in common with someone like Ben Constine, even though he is Jewish. We aren't all fighting over the same God, here, the span of "Christianity" are all worshiping what is fundamentally a different divinity. There is no intrafaith unity, because there is no common faith. You are libel to find more interfaith unity between different sects of Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc.
That being said, my view on evil is more philosophical than it is explicitly theological, because even in the collected writings that we call "The Bible" you find a wide array of views on the nature of good and evil, from strict monism (in the Pentateuch) to all out dualism (in the New Testament). Simply put, I believe in what you might call a "Black and Gray" reality, with actions and people that are truly evil, and then those that inhabit various zones of goodness, or acceptability; but you will never find a perfect good, either individually, or in action, because such a thing is impossible, the best you will find is a person who doing their best and failing much of the time. Finding something (short of God) that represents a perfect good is, at the least, a oneway ticket to disappointment, at the least, and delusional in most cases. Even by doing good, people are going to commit at least some sin, active or through negligence. And so the real root of all evil is pride. Not only is the idea of a perfect good diluted, it is evil itself, because people who believe, or think they are acting for the absolute good, or are even good incarnate, are also the people who tend to be capable of the most evil actions. Too much pride equals a lack of remorse, because one who thinks they are absolutely correct sees no need to examine their own shortcomings. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on June 01, 2010, 03:46:29 PM Theologically, I have almost nothing in common with someone like Bono, or jmfcst, inspite of the fact that we both believe in Jesus Christ, because our views of the nature of God are completely different... and I have much more in common with someone like Ben Constine, even though he is Jewish. I do not understand what you are saying: How do you and I have a different view of the nature of God that would have you more in agreement with Judaism's view of of the nature of God than with my view of of the nature of God? Are you referring to our disagreements about the Trinity, or about having a relationship with God, or about who is going to be saved...or are you referring to God having always existed...or something else? Seriously, I am not trying to be a wise guy, I am probably confused because the term “nature of God” is not something I use, mainly because it seems so broad that it could refer to anything and/or everything relating to God. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: 12th Doctor on June 01, 2010, 04:26:10 PM Theologically, I have almost nothing in common with someone like Bono, or jmfcst, inspite of the fact that we both believe in Jesus Christ, because our views of the nature of God are completely different... and I have much more in common with someone like Ben Constine, even though he is Jewish. I do not understand what you are saying: How do you and I have a different view of the nature of God that would have you more in agreement with Judaism's view of of the nature of God than with my view of of the nature of God? Are you referring to our disagreements about the Trinity, or about having a relationship with God, or about who is going to be saved...or are you referring to God having always existed...or something else? Seriously, I am not trying to be a wise guy, I am probably confused because the term “nature of God” is not something I use, mainly because it seems so broad that it could refer to anything and/or everything relating to God. This is a conclusion I came to in my long, drawn out, debates with Bono over the years, through AIM. After that long period of time, I finally came to the conclusion that the primary reason for our disagreements, and our lack of ability to resolve them, was not because we were failing to come to an understanding over various theological points about the Christian scriptures, but rather because we were asking totally different questions, and thus had no ability to come up with similar answers. The cycle has repeated itself between you and myself over the years. What frustrates me most in dealing with you, and I am sure in you dealing with me, is that we have no hope of agreeing on anything. This is because our disagreements aren't predicated on this or that point about trinity vs the unified Godhead, or about apostolic authority vs a diffuse Church, or on a continuing development of the Church vs authoritative teaching stopping with scripture... yes, those are all symptoms of or differing views of the broader nature of God, the universe, and man's place there in, but even on the points where we can agree, the agreement is merely superficial, because we don't agree on the the starting point of the inquiry... we don't agree on the questions that cause us to arrive at that point. Superficially, we appear to agree on quite a bit. We agree that this guy named Jesus was divine, and that these scriptures are inerrant, and we agree on this, and that... and so one would be led to say that we agree on the major points... but really we don't. Those are the minor points. Even a Marxist and a Burkean can agree on the facts and the details. After you get past that, to the more fundamental stuff, its an entirely different story. Likewise, I have certainly met Democrats on whom I agree far more on the nature of government and the issues, even if we don't agree on specific policy, than many of my fellow Republicans with whom I might have more in common, on the surface. Does it matter that we both agree on this Jesus guy if we can't agree at all on the nature of his mission, his role, his teachings, etc? No. As much as you an I agree that this God exists, we don't agree at all on who this God is. You and I, in reality, worship a totally different entity, even though we call him the same thing, while there are people out there who don't call this divinity the same thing, but agree with each of us, separately, on the worldview we ought to take in exploring and understanding It. Ben and I certainly agree way more on the nature of the divine than you and I. I don't mean it as a put down. I don't mean it as a call to arms. It's simply reality. I can't remember who it was, but someone said in the other thread where we are fisticuffing that it is amazing to see how much we fight when we have so much in common... says who? Do you feel like we have anything in common? The notion that we do is based on backwards thinking, looking at the product as opposed to the process. There is no common process when comparing how we come to the conclusions to which we have arrived. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: 12th Doctor on June 01, 2010, 04:42:24 PM In fact, one time I told Bono straight up, and not out of anger, but out of fact:
"You and I don't believe in the same God." His reaction was... well, fearful it seemed to me... but it's the truth. I don't see how we can avoid saying it when we agree on almost nothing about what this God is like, and how he has ordered the universe. It doesn't mean that we are, all of a sudden, on different sides. We were never on the same side. It's easier to simply accept that than to maintain the farce, that then leads us to exclude people of other faiths from our circle, with whom we have far more in common. Just tolerate the differences, and move on. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on June 01, 2010, 04:52:10 PM There is no common process when comparing how we come to the conclusions to which we have arrived. True --- Does it matter that we both agree on this Jesus guy if we can't agree at all on the nature of his mission, his role, his teachings, etc? No. As much as you and I agree that this God exists, we don't agree at all on who this God is. You and I, in reality, worship a totally different entity, even though we call him the same thing, while there are people out there who don't call this divinity the same thing, but agree with each of us, separately, on the worldview we ought to take in exploring and understanding It. Ben and I certainly agree way more on the nature of the divine than you and I. But, I think this is going a bit too far. We may disagree with some of his teachings (doctrine)….but certainly who God is, his mission, and his role should be pretty much agreeable, right? I mean, we may disagree on the composition of the Godhead, but I thought you and I agreed that Jesus is the doorway into discovering who God is, in that whoever God is, he can be found through Christ and in Christ. And aren’t his mission and role pretty much spelled out concisely in Isa 61:1-3? 1 The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners, 2 to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn, 3 and provide for those who grieve in Zion— to bestow on them a crown of beauty instead of ashes, the oil of gladness instead of mourning, and a garment of praise instead of a spirit of despair. They will be called oaks of righteousness, a planting of the LORD for the display of his splendor. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: MASHED POTATOES. VOTE! on June 01, 2010, 08:47:58 PM I had a really long (inebriated) conversation with my very Baptist best friend last night about where evil came from. She tried to find it in the Bible, but no luck. Those Baptists... Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Derek on June 03, 2010, 08:07:08 AM Evil is a state of mind the same as happiness. Without it, we wouldn't recognize good. Recognition is the awareness of an idea's opposition.
Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Derek on June 08, 2010, 10:20:15 PM I had a really long (inebriated) conversation with my very Baptist best friend last night about where evil came from. She tried to find it in the Bible, but no luck. Those Baptists... It's a state of mind. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: fezzyfestoon on June 18, 2010, 05:16:59 PM Ah, sorry. I forgot I posted this. I'm gonna go through, I'm really interested in your different perspectives. :P
God created all things good. Evil is not its own nature, but rather, the absence of God, and thus, the absence of good. An analogy would be that "cold" does not really exist, but is simply the absence of heat. How can something be without God if he created everything? And if everything is evil without God, isn't everything then inherently evil? You can't be born God-fearing and completely Christian and animals certainly can't be. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: fezzyfestoon on June 18, 2010, 05:20:09 PM Evil exists in order for us to recognize a greater good. If we were simply happy all the time or things were always perfect, then we wouldn't be aware of such perfection. Furthermore, it is what we consider evil to be that we are dealing with here. Things happen that generate a negative response from individuals; aids in Africa, war in the middle east, children with terminal illnesses, dead puppies. These things are just as much part of life as that which generates a positive response from individuals; weddings, birth of a child, helping at a retirement home, mentoring students. Many would argue that there isn't evil but evil is a state of mind the same as one can be in the state of happiness. Things that happen aren't evil, things we do are evil. Killing, lying, stealing, cruelty. The question isn't what is and isn't evil, but how it got there. It certainly exists, so who created it? If God is all good how could he create evil? And if he did then how is he all good? Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Kaine for Senate '18 on June 18, 2010, 05:21:19 PM Ben and I certainly agree way more on the nature of the divine than you and I. :) I love that I can be mentioned in random theological conversations; it makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: fezzyfestoon on June 18, 2010, 05:22:51 PM That being said, my view on evil is more philosophical than it is explicitly theological, because even in the collected writings that we call "The Bible" you find a wide array of views on the nature of good and evil, from strict monism (in the Pentateuch) to all out dualism (in the New Testament). Simply put, I believe in what you might call a "Black and Gray" reality, with actions and people that are truly evil, and then those that inhabit various zones of goodness, or acceptability; but you will never find a perfect good, either individually, or in action, because such a thing is impossible, the best you will find is a person who doing their best and failing much of the time. Finding something (short of God) that represents a perfect good is, at the least, a oneway ticket to disappointment, at the least, and delusional in most cases. Even by doing good, people are going to commit at least some sin, active or through negligence. And so the real root of all evil is pride. Not only is the idea of a perfect good diluted, it is evil itself, because people who believe, or think they are acting for the absolute good, or are even good incarnate, are also the people who tend to be capable of the most evil actions. Too much pride equals a lack of remorse, because one who thinks they are absolutely correct sees no need to examine their own shortcomings. So how can a perfectly good being create evil? How does it exist if in him it never existed? If God can't do it or be it, how can anything he creates be that or do that? He is then not all powerful if he gives his creations the ability to do and be something he cannot. If he is all good wouldn't he only create good? Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl on June 18, 2010, 05:31:14 PM How can something be without God if he created everything? And if everything is evil without God, isn't everything then inherently evil? You can't be born God-fearing and completely Christian and animals certainly can't be. People are all created by God. Evil entails a deliberate rejection of and turning away from God. As with the hot and cold example, there are different degrees between good and evil. All human beings are prone to evil at one time or another, but total rejection of God and acceptance of evil is embodied by Satan. I don't think anyone on the earth is quite at that level. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: afleitch on June 18, 2010, 05:35:31 PM 'Good' and 'Evil' are inherent in humans as highly sentient primates. No deity has 'endowed' us with them; they are innate.
Title: Re: God created evil Post by: ?????????? on June 19, 2010, 09:59:15 PM 'Good' and 'Evil' are inherent in humans as highly sentient primates. No deity has 'endowed' us with them; they are innate. Why has no other species come within any range of where we are at in terms of culture, civilization, language and on and on? Title: Re: God created evil Post by: John Dibble on June 19, 2010, 10:48:06 PM 'Good' and 'Evil' are inherent in humans as highly sentient primates. No deity has 'endowed' us with them; they are innate. Why has no other species come within any range of where we are at in terms of culture, civilization, language and on and on? Because no other species aside from some of our evolutionary precursors evolved brains with capacity for such things. The answer would pretty much be the same if you asked that question about another species that had some trait that was either entirely unique or significantly greater than that of any other species. Just because only one species has a trait or a trait at a particular level it doesn't mean that evolution does not explain it. Also, I'll note that none of the traits you list are unique to humans. Culture can be found in many animals, such as Killer Whales. Civilization is pretty similar to how superorganisms work. Just look at ants - they can develop massive colonies (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQERRbU23bU) which can have millions of individuals which work in far greater harmony than members of our own civilization do. Let's also not forget that they live pretty much everywhere on the planet. As far as language, it does exist in animal societies for quite a few species, though admittedly their vocabularies aren't as great as ours. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: useful idiot on June 19, 2010, 10:51:16 PM The only thing that is inherently sinful is deviation from the will of God. The free choice and human faculties given to Adam resulted in his decision to disobey God. God knew this obviously, as he is omniscient, but that doesn't make him culpable. Having created something tabula rasa, he is free from the creation of sin.
I assume what you're referring to when you said that God created Lucifer as perfect, you're referring to Ezekiel 28(a use of the king of Tyre as an allegory for Satan and probably for mankind in general). It says that he was blameless until unrighteousness was found in him. I can only assume to take this as Satan, and humanity, being perfect in creation because he(or they) had not yet rebelled against God. If sin is a lack of obedience to God, and goodness/blamelessness/perfection is the lack of pride and disobedience, then everything God created at its outset is good. Unlike Satan, however, God has chosen to save those humans who will accept the sacrifice found in Christ's atonement. Some hyper-Calvinists (who consider Calvin a heretic, funnily enough), will argue that God is the author of sin, but unfortunately like so many groups out there they've taken certain Bible passages and twisted them for their own ends, such as those that speak of God hardening certain people's hearts, and particularly and frustratingly 2 Cor 4: 3-4. This passage is a good argument for authentic "Calvinism", but when read the wrong way can lead you to ridiculous conclusions that are out of step with the rest of scripture. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: ?????????? on June 19, 2010, 10:52:19 PM When an ant builds the Sistine Chapel let me know.
Title: Re: God created evil Post by: ilikeverin on June 19, 2010, 11:21:37 PM As far as language, it does exist in animal societies for quite a few species, though admittedly their vocabularies aren't as great as ours. No, no it does not. Animals can communicate. Animals do not have language. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: John Dibble on June 20, 2010, 08:17:51 AM When an ant builds the Sistine Chapel let me know. I find it rather sad that you have no appreciation for the fact that these creatures were building the size equivalent of cities with full climate control millions of years before our ancestors were even huddling around a fire in a cave in a desperate struggle not to freeze to death. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: afleitch on June 20, 2010, 10:09:56 AM When an ant builds the Sistine Chapel let me know. I find it rather sad that you have no appreciation for the fact that these creatures were building the size equivalent of cities with full climate control millions of years before our ancestors were even huddling around a fire in a cave in a desperate struggle not to freeze to death. A good example of co-operative intelligence which we have to be thankful for. We're not far removed at all biologically from the first families of Homo Sapiens; we are the same species with the same capacity. But comparing us back then to other primates while we would be a few steps ahead, it wouldn't be too far beyond that. We can only appreciate the difference between us and our cousins now through human endeavor and civilisation over these past thousands of years. We did that with no external or spiritual interference. We should be proud of it; we should attribute our progress to ourselves. We should attribute the good to ourselves...but we need to take responsibility for the bad instead of 'hiving' it off to an external moral arbiter. Why are we agressive, sadistic, brutal and discriminate? Because we need to be, without those traits we wouldn't have made it as far as we did. When society breaks down even just for a short time (see Haiti, Darfur...) we fall back on those traits to survive. At the end of it all we're lucky primates with too many teeth, residual appendixes and tail bones that settled down, farmed and civilised. Good on us. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: fezzyfestoon on June 20, 2010, 12:33:54 PM 'Good' and 'Evil' are inherent in humans as highly sentient primates. No deity has 'endowed' us with them; they are innate. Well, clearly. But we're making the massive assumption in the question that a higher power does exist, God in particular as described in the Bible. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Derek on June 21, 2010, 01:36:56 AM By definition, it is clear because by definition all is from God. This includes evil.
Title: Re: God created evil Post by: John Dibble on June 21, 2010, 06:12:32 AM By definition, it is clear because by definition all is from God. This includes evil. You're assuming that this God thing exists, and you're assuming that there could only be one source for things to come from, so until you can prove both of those things you can't say that with certainty. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Derek on June 21, 2010, 12:35:20 PM By definition, it is clear because by definition all is from God. This includes evil. You're assuming that this God thing exists, and you're assuming that there could only be one source for things to come from, so until you can prove both of those things you can't say that with certainty. Ok and if there are more sources, eventually those sources had to come from something and so forth. If you don't believe in God then you don't really have a point in posting here. This thread is for people to debate if God did or did not create evil. Evil as I see it is a state of mind and by definition yes even ideas come from God on that level. This does not make God evil but makes it so that God was the root of ideas as well. Evil is an idea. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: John Dibble on June 21, 2010, 01:01:58 PM Ok and if there are more sources, eventually those sources had to come from something and so forth. No, not necessarily. Many believe in a deity who has no source - it's an existence that just has always existed and is the source of things. If you admit that one such being exists, then it's perfectly reasonable to say that other such beings could exist. There is no reason it has to be limited to one. Quote If you don't believe in God then you don't really have a point in posting here. This thread is for people to debate if God did or did not create evil. Evil as I see it is a state of mind and by definition yes even ideas come from God on that level. This does not make God evil but makes it so that God was the root of ideas as well. Evil is an idea. Horse s**t. Just because I don't believe in a god does not mean I have no reason to post here. I can very well give my perspective on the origins of this idea of evil even if I don't believe in a god, the point being to get people to consider my views on it. Maybe they'll agree, maybe they won't, or maybe they might partially agree and change their views. Given that most people think their views are more likely to be valid than others, then obviously there is a point in trying to get others to consider them. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: fezzyfestoon on June 21, 2010, 01:42:50 PM By definition, it is clear because by definition all is from God. This includes evil. Uh...I created the thread and I don't believe in God. I don't have a problem with him posting here, for the record. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Derek on June 21, 2010, 08:24:09 PM Ok and if there are more sources, eventually those sources had to come from something and so forth. No, not necessarily. Many believe in a deity who has no source - it's an existence that just has always existed and is the source of things. If you admit that one such being exists, then it's perfectly reasonable to say that other such beings could exist. There is no reason it has to be limited to one. Quote If you don't believe in God then you don't really have a point in posting here. This thread is for people to debate if God did or did not create evil. Evil as I see it is a state of mind and by definition yes even ideas come from God on that level. This does not make God evil but makes it so that God was the root of ideas as well. Evil is an idea. Horse s**t. Just because I don't believe in a god does not mean I have no reason to post here. I can very well give my perspective on the origins of this idea of evil even if I don't believe in a god, the point being to get people to consider my views on it. Maybe they'll agree, maybe they won't, or maybe they might partially agree and change their views. Given that most people think their views are more likely to be valid than others, then obviously there is a point in trying to get others to consider them. You can give your perspective but how does matter always exist? Where did it come from? Title: Re: God created evil Post by: tmthforu94 on June 21, 2010, 09:20:13 PM God created a perfect man. That man became evil on his own will. It was not God.
Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Sewer on June 21, 2010, 09:26:35 PM God created a perfect man. That man became evil on his own will. It was not God. So god thinks evil is perfect? Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Derek on June 21, 2010, 09:41:36 PM all things are derived from a first mover and that is what we know as God. Stop complicating this.
Title: Re: God created evil Post by: fezzyfestoon on June 21, 2010, 09:48:37 PM God created a perfect man. That man became evil on his own will. It was not God. What I asked is how that evil option exists if God created everything and God is perfectly good. Only God can create, man didn't come up with evil on its own. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Derek on June 21, 2010, 09:54:43 PM God created a perfect man. That man became evil on his own will. It was not God. What I asked is how that evil option exists if God created everything and God is perfectly good. Only God can create, man didn't come up with evil on its own. Read what I posted in the creation thread of this forum. You'll find part of your answer there. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: John Dibble on June 22, 2010, 06:18:09 AM Ok and if there are more sources, eventually those sources had to come from something and so forth. No, not necessarily. Many believe in a deity who has no source - it's an existence that just has always existed and is the source of things. If you admit that one such being exists, then it's perfectly reasonable to say that other such beings could exist. There is no reason it has to be limited to one. Quote If you don't believe in God then you don't really have a point in posting here. This thread is for people to debate if God did or did not create evil. Evil as I see it is a state of mind and by definition yes even ideas come from God on that level. This does not make God evil but makes it so that God was the root of ideas as well. Evil is an idea. Horse s**t. Just because I don't believe in a god does not mean I have no reason to post here. I can very well give my perspective on the origins of this idea of evil even if I don't believe in a god, the point being to get people to consider my views on it. Maybe they'll agree, maybe they won't, or maybe they might partially agree and change their views. Given that most people think their views are more likely to be valid than others, then obviously there is a point in trying to get others to consider them. You can give your perspective but how does matter always exist? Where did it come from? Do you know how to read? I never said anything about matter, I'm talking about possibilities for original sources here, which seems to be what you define as God. It doesn't have to be matter, or it could be. Doesn't really matter in terms of my argument. As to the "how" of it that is also irrelevant. Just because I don't know the answer doesn't negate the possibility. You keep making these arguments based on this God thing, but you can't even be sure if God as you're defining it actually exists. It's the classic logical fallacy known as an argument from ignorance - because you can't think of a different possibility that suits you more, you accept it as true even though you have no evidence. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Derek on June 22, 2010, 10:32:35 AM Ok and if there are more sources, eventually those sources had to come from something and so forth. No, not necessarily. Many believe in a deity who has no source - it's an existence that just has always existed and is the source of things. If you admit that one such being exists, then it's perfectly reasonable to say that other such beings could exist. There is no reason it has to be limited to one. Quote If you don't believe in God then you don't really have a point in posting here. This thread is for people to debate if God did or did not create evil. Evil as I see it is a state of mind and by definition yes even ideas come from God on that level. This does not make God evil but makes it so that God was the root of ideas as well. Evil is an idea. Horse s**t. Just because I don't believe in a god does not mean I have no reason to post here. I can very well give my perspective on the origins of this idea of evil even if I don't believe in a god, the point being to get people to consider my views on it. Maybe they'll agree, maybe they won't, or maybe they might partially agree and change their views. Given that most people think their views are more likely to be valid than others, then obviously there is a point in trying to get others to consider them. You can give your perspective but how does matter always exist? Where did it come from? Do you know how to read? I never said anything about matter, I'm talking about possibilities for original sources here, which seems to be what you define as God. It doesn't have to be matter, or it could be. Doesn't really matter in terms of my argument. As to the "how" of it that is also irrelevant. Just because I don't know the answer doesn't negate the possibility. You keep making these arguments based on this God thing, but you can't even be sure if God as you're defining it actually exists. It's the classic logical fallacy known as an argument from ignorance - because you can't think of a different possibility that suits you more, you accept it as true even though you have no evidence. How do you know how I define God? Title: Re: God created evil Post by: John Dibble on June 22, 2010, 12:40:30 PM How do you know how I define God? You have talked about it before. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Derek on June 22, 2010, 04:02:37 PM Ok and if there are more sources, eventually those sources had to come from something and so forth. No, not necessarily. Many believe in a deity who has no source - it's an existence that just has always existed and is the source of things. If you admit that one such being exists, then it's perfectly reasonable to say that other such beings could exist. There is no reason it has to be limited to one. Quote If you don't believe in God then you don't really have a point in posting here. This thread is for people to debate if God did or did not create evil. Evil as I see it is a state of mind and by definition yes even ideas come from God on that level. This does not make God evil but makes it so that God was the root of ideas as well. Evil is an idea. Horse s**t. Just because I don't believe in a god does not mean I have no reason to post here. I can very well give my perspective on the origins of this idea of evil even if I don't believe in a god, the point being to get people to consider my views on it. Maybe they'll agree, maybe they won't, or maybe they might partially agree and change their views. Given that most people think their views are more likely to be valid than others, then obviously there is a point in trying to get others to consider them. You can give your perspective but how does matter always exist? Where did it come from? Do you know how to read? I never said anything about matter, I'm talking about possibilities for original sources here, which seems to be what you define as God. It doesn't have to be matter, or it could be. Doesn't really matter in terms of my argument. As to the "how" of it that is also irrelevant. Just because I don't know the answer doesn't negate the possibility. You keep making these arguments based on this God thing, but you can't even be sure if God as you're defining it actually exists. It's the classic logical fallacy known as an argument from ignorance - because you can't think of a different possibility that suits you more, you accept it as true even though you have no evidence. We get it, you're an agnostic and that's cool but we get it. You're talking all day about nothing and coming to no conclusions. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: John Dibble on June 22, 2010, 07:39:32 PM We get it, you're an agnostic and that's cool but we get it. You're talking all day about nothing and coming to no conclusions. I've come to the conclusion that you're incapable of debating your way out of a paper bag. Does that count? Seriously, you can't refute the things I say so you just start accusing me of being unable to come to a conclusion, so you use straw men arguments as a cover. Pathetic. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Derek on June 22, 2010, 09:52:16 PM We get it, you're an agnostic and that's cool but we get it. You're talking all day about nothing and coming to no conclusions. I've come to the conclusion that you're incapable of debating your way out of a paper bag. Does that count? Seriously, you can't refute the things I say so you just start accusing me of being unable to come to a conclusion, so you use straw men arguments as a cover. Pathetic. Do you have any of your own ideas? Title: Re: God created evil Post by: fezzyfestoon on June 22, 2010, 11:35:50 PM God created a perfect man. That man became evil on his own will. It was not God. I didn't, and... We get it, you're an agnostic and that's cool but we get it. You're talking all day about nothing and coming to no conclusions. ...what? Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Derek on June 22, 2010, 11:44:30 PM God created a perfect man. That man became evil on his own will. It was not God. I didn't, and... We get it, you're an agnostic and that's cool but we get it. You're talking all day about nothing and coming to no conclusions. ...what? What are you confused about? Title: Re: God created evil Post by: fezzyfestoon on June 23, 2010, 12:24:11 AM The only thing that is inherently sinful is deviation from the will of God. The free choice and human faculties given to Adam resulted in his decision to disobey God. God knew this obviously, as he is omniscient, but that doesn't make him culpable. Having created something tabula rasa, he is free from the creation of sin. I assume what you're referring to when you said that God created Lucifer as perfect, you're referring to Ezekiel 28(a use of the king of Tyre as an allegory for Satan and probably for mankind in general). It says that he was blameless until unrighteousness was found in him. I can only assume to take this as Satan, and humanity, being perfect in creation because he(or they) had not yet rebelled against God. If sin is a lack of obedience to God, and goodness/blamelessness/perfection is the lack of pride and disobedience, then everything God created at its outset is good. Unlike Satan, however, God has chosen to save those humans who will accept the sacrifice found in Christ's atonement. Some hyper-Calvinists (who consider Calvin a heretic, funnily enough), will argue that God is the author of sin, but unfortunately like so many groups out there they've taken certain Bible passages and twisted them for their own ends, such as those that speak of God hardening certain people's hearts, and particularly and frustratingly 2 Cor 4: 3-4. This passage is a good argument for authentic "Calvinism", but when read the wrong way can lead you to ridiculous conclusions that are out of step with the rest of scripture. How did God not know that was there and who put it there if he didn't? It's God's world, is it not? So what other possibilities could his creations see but the way he did things? What are you confused about? How is that not clear? Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Derek on June 23, 2010, 12:27:01 AM The only thing that is inherently sinful is deviation from the will of God. The free choice and human faculties given to Adam resulted in his decision to disobey God. God knew this obviously, as he is omniscient, but that doesn't make him culpable. Having created something tabula rasa, he is free from the creation of sin. I assume what you're referring to when you said that God created Lucifer as perfect, you're referring to Ezekiel 28(a use of the king of Tyre as an allegory for Satan and probably for mankind in general). It says that he was blameless until unrighteousness was found in him. I can only assume to take this as Satan, and humanity, being perfect in creation because he(or they) had not yet rebelled against God. If sin is a lack of obedience to God, and goodness/blamelessness/perfection is the lack of pride and disobedience, then everything God created at its outset is good. Unlike Satan, however, God has chosen to save those humans who will accept the sacrifice found in Christ's atonement. Some hyper-Calvinists (who consider Calvin a heretic, funnily enough), will argue that God is the author of sin, but unfortunately like so many groups out there they've taken certain Bible passages and twisted them for their own ends, such as those that speak of God hardening certain people's hearts, and particularly and frustratingly 2 Cor 4: 3-4. This passage is a good argument for authentic "Calvinism", but when read the wrong way can lead you to ridiculous conclusions that are out of step with the rest of scripture. How did God not know that was there and who put it there if he didn't? It's God's world, is it not? So what other possibilities could his creations see but the way he did things? What are you confused about? How is that not clear? I'm not sure what is or isn't clear you lost me there. God would be all knowing and know beforehand but if things were perfect all the time then we would have no free will and not recognize the greater good or God's perfection. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: fezzyfestoon on June 23, 2010, 12:47:16 AM The post I quoted:
Do you have any of your own ideas? My asking of "what" was a pretty straight-forward request for clarification on where he demonstrated he didn't. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Derek on June 23, 2010, 12:52:24 AM The post I quoted: Do you have any of your own ideas? My asking of "what" was a pretty straight-forward request for clarification on where he demonstrated he didn't. I was talking to John Dibble from GA. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: fezzyfestoon on June 23, 2010, 12:55:30 AM The post I quoted: Do you have any of your own ideas? YES. I KNOW. HENCE THE "HE". Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Derek on June 23, 2010, 01:01:33 AM The post I quoted: Do you have any of your own ideas? YES. I KNOW. HENCE THE "HE". Well he doesn't answer much all that he does is question everyone to the point of doubting whether or not something actually happened. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: fezzyfestoon on June 23, 2010, 01:07:24 AM Well he doesn't answer much all that he does is question everyone to the point of doubting whether or not something actually happened. I'm not seeing how that connects to him allegedly not having any thoughts of his own. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Derek on June 23, 2010, 01:46:49 AM Well he doesn't answer much all that he does is question everyone to the point of doubting whether or not something actually happened. I'm not seeing how that connects to him allegedly not having any thoughts of his own. He doesn't have much of his own either but let's give him a chance I find it unprofessional to chat about other bloggers like that on here. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: John Dibble on June 23, 2010, 08:33:59 AM Well he doesn't answer much all that he does is question everyone to the point of doubting whether or not something actually happened. I'm not seeing how that connects to him allegedly not having any thoughts of his own. He doesn't have much of his own either but let's give him a chance I find it unprofessional to chat about other bloggers like that on here. I don't question everyone like I question you, just people who don't have their act together because they can't even make a coherent, logical argument. You're completely unable to back up your arguments with pretty much anything that comes close to being reasonable, so you falsely claim I have no ideas when I call you on it. The fact that I present other possibilities clearly shows I have ideas, but apparently you're too dense to realize that obvious fact. Your denseness is further demonstrated in your inability to immediately understand a simple question of "what?" - even a child would understand what was being asked there! Also this isn't a blog. People here are not bloggers. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Derek on June 23, 2010, 04:11:05 PM Well he doesn't answer much all that he does is question everyone to the point of doubting whether or not something actually happened. I'm not seeing how that connects to him allegedly not having any thoughts of his own. He doesn't have much of his own either but let's give him a chance I find it unprofessional to chat about other bloggers like that on here. I don't question everyone like I question you, just people who don't have their act together because they can't even make a coherent, logical argument. You're completely unable to back up your arguments with pretty much anything that comes close to being reasonable, so you falsely claim I have no ideas when I call you on it. The fact that I present other possibilities clearly shows I have ideas, but apparently you're too dense to realize that obvious fact. Your denseness is further demonstrated in your inability to immediately understand a simple question of "what?" - even a child would understand what was being asked there! Also this isn't a blog. People here are not bloggers. Anyone can play devil's advocate if they have heard a few theories. And yes you are a blogger. We are posters. You are a blogger. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: John Dibble on June 23, 2010, 05:48:34 PM Anyone can play devil's advocate if they have heard a few theories. This has nothing to do with playing devil's advocate. It has to do with holding claims to a reasonable standard of evidence. I've lost track of the number of times you've advanced your claims as better than others with no basis in reality whatsoever - it's all about you and what you prefer, not real evidence. Quote And yes you are a blogger. We are posters. You are a blogger. What? That doesn't even remotely make sense - I don't even have a blog. How then can I be a blogger? I mean seriously, do you even think before you post this nonsense? Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Derek on June 23, 2010, 05:55:28 PM Anyone can play devil's advocate if they have heard a few theories. This has nothing to do with playing devil's advocate. It has to do with holding claims to a reasonable standard of evidence. I've lost track of the number of times you've advanced your claims as better than others with no basis in reality whatsoever - it's all about you and what you prefer, not real evidence. Quote And yes you are a blogger. We are posters. You are a blogger. What? That doesn't even remotely make sense - I don't even have a blog. How then can I be a blogger? I mean seriously, do you even think before you post this nonsense? Again the evidence I put for God is the fact that anything exists. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: John Dibble on June 23, 2010, 06:00:50 PM Anyone can play devil's advocate if they have heard a few theories. This has nothing to do with playing devil's advocate. It has to do with holding claims to a reasonable standard of evidence. I've lost track of the number of times you've advanced your claims as better than others with no basis in reality whatsoever - it's all about you and what you prefer, not real evidence. Quote And yes you are a blogger. We are posters. You are a blogger. What? That doesn't even remotely make sense - I don't even have a blog. How then can I be a blogger? I mean seriously, do you even think before you post this nonsense? Again the evidence I put for God is the fact that anything exists. Insufficient. Existence only proves existence at best, not anything else. And answer the damn question about the blogger nonsense. Seriously, if you want to keep dodging questions then you're not going to earn any credibility here on this forum. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Derek on June 23, 2010, 06:40:49 PM Anyone can play devil's advocate if they have heard a few theories. This has nothing to do with playing devil's advocate. It has to do with holding claims to a reasonable standard of evidence. I've lost track of the number of times you've advanced your claims as better than others with no basis in reality whatsoever - it's all about you and what you prefer, not real evidence. Quote And yes you are a blogger. We are posters. You are a blogger. What? That doesn't even remotely make sense - I don't even have a blog. How then can I be a blogger? I mean seriously, do you even think before you post this nonsense? Again the evidence I put for God is the fact that anything exists. Insufficient. Existence only proves existence at best, not anything else. And answer the damn question about the blogger nonsense. Seriously, if you want to keep dodging questions then you're not going to earn any credibility here on this forum. I'm not answering a question that splits hairs between bloggers and us forum community members. As far as existence, if you think that something can just appear out of nothing then you go ahead. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Associate Justice PiT on June 23, 2010, 06:58:25 PM Anyone can play devil's advocate if they have heard a few theories. This has nothing to do with playing devil's advocate. It has to do with holding claims to a reasonable standard of evidence. I've lost track of the number of times you've advanced your claims as better than others with no basis in reality whatsoever - it's all about you and what you prefer, not real evidence. Quote And yes you are a blogger. We are posters. You are a blogger. What? That doesn't even remotely make sense - I don't even have a blog. How then can I be a blogger? I mean seriously, do you even think before you post this nonsense? Again the evidence I put for God is the fact that anything exists. Insufficient. Existence only proves existence at best, not anything else. And answer the damn question about the blogger nonsense. Seriously, if you want to keep dodging questions then you're not going to earn any credibility here on this forum. I'm not answering a question that splits hairs between bloggers and us forum community members. As far as existence, if you think that something can just appear out of nothing then you go ahead. But how is it any more logical to say that God appeared out of nothing? Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Derek on June 23, 2010, 07:15:34 PM Anyone can play devil's advocate if they have heard a few theories. This has nothing to do with playing devil's advocate. It has to do with holding claims to a reasonable standard of evidence. I've lost track of the number of times you've advanced your claims as better than others with no basis in reality whatsoever - it's all about you and what you prefer, not real evidence. Quote And yes you are a blogger. We are posters. You are a blogger. What? That doesn't even remotely make sense - I don't even have a blog. How then can I be a blogger? I mean seriously, do you even think before you post this nonsense? Again the evidence I put for God is the fact that anything exists. Insufficient. Existence only proves existence at best, not anything else. And answer the damn question about the blogger nonsense. Seriously, if you want to keep dodging questions then you're not going to earn any credibility here on this forum. I'm not answering a question that splits hairs between bloggers and us forum community members. As far as existence, if you think that something can just appear out of nothing then you go ahead. But how is it any more logical to say that God appeared out of nothing? By definition God is infinite. That which is infinite does not have a beginning or an end. That which is finite, meaning all we know in the material realm, must have a start to it. It's hard to explain and understand, but as finite beings we will never fully be able to comprehend how the infinite is truly infinite. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Associate Justice PiT on June 23, 2010, 07:39:05 PM Anyone can play devil's advocate if they have heard a few theories. This has nothing to do with playing devil's advocate. It has to do with holding claims to a reasonable standard of evidence. I've lost track of the number of times you've advanced your claims as better than others with no basis in reality whatsoever - it's all about you and what you prefer, not real evidence. Quote And yes you are a blogger. We are posters. You are a blogger. What? That doesn't even remotely make sense - I don't even have a blog. How then can I be a blogger? I mean seriously, do you even think before you post this nonsense? Again the evidence I put for God is the fact that anything exists. Insufficient. Existence only proves existence at best, not anything else. And answer the damn question about the blogger nonsense. Seriously, if you want to keep dodging questions then you're not going to earn any credibility here on this forum. I'm not answering a question that splits hairs between bloggers and us forum community members. As far as existence, if you think that something can just appear out of nothing then you go ahead. But how is it any more logical to say that God appeared out of nothing? By definition God is infinite. That which is infinite does not have a beginning or an end. That which is finite, meaning all we know in the material realm, must have a start to it. It's hard to explain and understand, but as finite beings we will never fully be able to comprehend how the infinite is truly infinite. But some religions have gods that die, such as Balder in Norse mythology. I would think a proper definition of God would also have to include these deities, which would preclude infinity from defining Godhood. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Associate Justice PiT on June 23, 2010, 08:22:08 PM Well a proper anthropological definition would, PiT. I don't think that's what he's talking about. Anyways, I think Derek is on the right here. The burden of proof is on the nonbelievers; they're the ones committing the hypocrisy of denying an infinite God while accepting a metaphysic in which reality itself "appeared out of nothing." But would that really be hypocrisy if the person in question did not specifically deny the notion of a deity that is infinite, claiming that the idea of an infinite God was absurd? Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Derek on June 23, 2010, 09:25:24 PM A non-infine God within the context of Western metaphysics (and make no mistake, we're all Westerners here) is absurd. Yes a finite god is an oxymoron. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Associate Justice PiT on June 23, 2010, 11:11:05 PM A non-infine God within the context of Western metaphysics (and make no mistake, we're all Westerners here) is absurd. I phrased that badly. What I meant to ask was, how would it be hypocritical to accept that the universe appeared out of nothing if one did not believe in God, but for reasons unrelated to the issue of his infinity? Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Derek on June 23, 2010, 11:16:59 PM A non-infine God within the context of Western metaphysics (and make no mistake, we're all Westerners here) is absurd. I phrased that badly. What I meant to ask was, how would it be hypocritical to accept that the universe appeared out of nothing if one did not believe in God, but for reasons unrelated to the issue of his infinity? Stop thinking of God as the deity with white hair and a beard who lives in the clouds. God is simply the first cause, first mover. Even if that's matter! Geez Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Associate Justice PiT on June 23, 2010, 11:30:37 PM A non-infine God within the context of Western metaphysics (and make no mistake, we're all Westerners here) is absurd. I phrased that badly. What I meant to ask was, how would it be hypocritical to accept that the universe appeared out of nothing if one did not believe in God, but for reasons unrelated to the issue of his infinity? Stop thinking of God as the deity with white hair and a beard who lives in the clouds. God is simply the first cause, first mover. Even if that's matter! Geez My apologies, it is merely that people in our society usually use the term God to refer to the Abrahamic God. I would suggest using a term that is less likely to be mistaken as referring to the Abrahamic God. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: John Dibble on June 24, 2010, 09:16:08 AM I'm not answering a question that splits hairs between bloggers and us forum community members. You won't answer it because you know you were wrong. Quote As far as existence, if you think that something can just appear out of nothing then you go ahead. Well you seem to think that this "infinite God" thing can just exist without any cause, so I don't see how the notion is any more or less absurd. Of course that isn't what I said at all, but it doesn't surprise me that as usual you can't comprehend that. The burden of proof is on the nonbelievers; No, the burden of proof is always on the ones making a claim. To say otherwise is to say that you would have to disprove everything you don't believe in in order to say that your beliefs are rational. Quote they're the ones committing the hypocrisy of denying an infinite God while accepting a metaphysic in which reality itself "appeared out of nothing." This is a strawman argument - not all unbelievers believe the universe "appeared out of nothing". If someone actually makes that claim then the burden of proof is on them for that claim. That hasn't been proven, so I don't believe it. Another problem with what you're saying is that it isn't necessarily hypocritical - the two claims aren't necessarily bound to one another. You could believe that the universe came from nothing, but that it is finite and will eventually end. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Derek on June 24, 2010, 10:00:05 AM I'm not answering a question that splits hairs between bloggers and us forum community members. You won't answer it because you know you were wrong. Quote As far as existence, if you think that something can just appear out of nothing then you go ahead. Well you seem to think that this "infinite God" thing can just exist without any cause, so I don't see how the notion is any more or less absurd. Of course that isn't what I said at all, but it doesn't surprise me that as usual you can't comprehend that. The burden of proof is on the nonbelievers; No, the burden of proof is always on the ones making a claim. To say otherwise is to say that you would have to disprove everything you don't believe in in order to say that your beliefs are rational. Quote they're the ones committing the hypocrisy of denying an infinite God while accepting a metaphysic in which reality itself "appeared out of nothing." This is a strawman argument - not all unbelievers believe the universe "appeared out of nothing". If someone actually makes that claim then the burden of proof is on them for that claim. That hasn't been proven, so I don't believe it. Another problem with what you're saying is that it isn't necessarily hypocritical - the two claims aren't necessarily bound to one another. You could believe that the universe came from nothing, but that it is finite and will eventually end. Infinite God thing? Yes being infinite does not require a beginning or end. How that is is beyond our finite comprehension. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: John Dibble on June 24, 2010, 10:08:26 AM Infinite God thing? Yes being infinite does not require a beginning or end. How that is is beyond our finite comprehension. Once again you don't understand what I said. I didn't state anything about "our" comprehension, I stated something about your comprehension. Your response to what I said earlier about existence only proving existence at best, which is to say that our existence proves nothing about where our existence came from, was to irrelevantly act as if I was saying we come from nothing which is not at all what I said. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: John Dibble on June 24, 2010, 02:03:22 PM The burden of proof is on the nonbelievers; No, the burden of proof is always on the ones making a claim. To say otherwise is to say that you would have to disprove everything you don't believe in in order to say that your beliefs are rational. 1. This is an incorrect application of Occam's Razor, which states "entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity". The proper use of Occam's Razor is to take the evidence, develop your ideas around the evidence, and cut off anything from the ideas that are not necessitated by the evidence. I can say a watch needs a maker because I can compare it against every other watch in existence - watches don't occur in nature, we know that humans are needed to make them. The universe on the other hand is different. We don't know where the universe came from, nor do we currently know of any universes to compare it against. We cannot therefore state that the universe was made in the sense a watch would be made - it may have been, but we lack the evidence to make it a necessary conclusion, and therefore Occam's Razor would actually make any theory of the universe's origins not include a maker until evidence for one was found. 2. Occam's Razor is a principle for developing theories and whatnot, but that does not mean a theory or idea developed using Occam's Razor is necessarily correct. New evidence might show that the previous conclusions were totally incorrect. Quote Quote Quote they're the ones committing the hypocrisy of denying an infinite God while accepting a metaphysic in which reality itself "appeared out of nothing." This is a strawman argument - not all unbelievers believe the universe "appeared out of nothing". If someone actually makes that claim then the burden of proof is on them for that claim. That hasn't been proven, so I don't believe it. Another problem with what you're saying is that it isn't necessarily hypocritical - the two claims aren't necessarily bound to one another. You could believe that the universe came from nothing, but that it is finite and will eventually end. No, I don't. I've outright stated I don't. Stop with this ridiculous attempt at straw-manning. Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Derek on June 24, 2010, 02:07:10 PM The burden of proof is on the nonbelievers; No, the burden of proof is always on the ones making a claim. To say otherwise is to say that you would have to disprove everything you don't believe in in order to say that your beliefs are rational. 1. This is an incorrect application of Occam's Razor, which states "entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity". The proper use of Occam's Razor is to take the evidence, develop your ideas around the evidence, and cut off anything from the ideas that are not necessitated by the evidence. I can say a watch needs a maker because I can compare it against every other watch in existence - watches don't occur in nature, we know that humans are needed to make them. The universe on the other hand is different. We don't know where the universe came from, nor do we currently know of any universes to compare it against. We cannot therefore state that the universe was made in the sense a watch would be made - it may have been, but we lack the evidence to make it a necessary conclusion, and therefore Occam's Razor would actually make any theory of the universe's origins not include a maker until evidence for one was found. 2. Occam's Razor is a principle for developing theories and whatnot, but that does not mean a theory or idea developed using Occam's Razor is necessarily correct. New evidence might show that the previous conclusions were totally incorrect. Quote Quote Quote they're the ones committing the hypocrisy of denying an infinite God while accepting a metaphysic in which reality itself "appeared out of nothing." This is a strawman argument - not all unbelievers believe the universe "appeared out of nothing". If someone actually makes that claim then the burden of proof is on them for that claim. That hasn't been proven, so I don't believe it. Another problem with what you're saying is that it isn't necessarily hypocritical - the two claims aren't necessarily bound to one another. You could believe that the universe came from nothing, but that it is finite and will eventually end. No, I don't. I've outright stated I don't. Stop with this ridiculous attempt at straw-manning. I don't know how to copy just one quote but Occam's Razor is not always concrete. Yes it is often the case that the truth or facts are right in front of you or at least the case that what is thought to have happened is more likely than a twisted far out conspiracy theory. However, you can't always be sure. I'm always careful to apply Occam's Razor to anything. What is the simplest solution after all? Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on June 24, 2010, 02:09:01 PM why all the chatter? why not just conclude God created creatures that were initially good but who had the free will to do evil and corrupt themselves? end of story
Title: Re: God created evil Post by: John Dibble on June 24, 2010, 02:27:23 PM I don't know how to copy just one quote I told you how to do that - just use the bracket tags and cut out anything you don't want to quote. Quote but Occam's Razor is not always concrete. Yes it is often the case that the truth or facts are right in front of you or at least the case that what is thought to have happened is more likely than a twisted far out conspiracy theory. However, you can't always be sure. I'm always careful to apply Occam's Razor to anything. What is the simplest solution after all? Yes, I stated pretty much this with my second point. Also, the notion of the "simplest solution" isn't really what Occam's Razor is about, rather it's about not adding unnecessary assumptions to your conclusions. why all the chatter? why not just conclude God created creatures that were initially good but who had the free will to do evil and corrupt themselves? end of story Because some people don't feel that simply coming to that conclusion is what they should do. You may feel that because of what you believe to have been some kind of divine revelation that you experienced that you've got enough to go on to make that conclusion, but the rest of us might not feel that way if for nothing else lacking such an experience. If a person didn't feel that he or she has enough of a reason to draw that conclusion, then wouldn't just concluding it be intellectually lazy? Title: Re: God created evil Post by: Derek on June 24, 2010, 03:07:32 PM why all the chatter? why not just conclude God created creatures that were initially good but who had the free will to do evil and corrupt themselves? end of story And besides if everything was "perfect" in the beginning then it was our destiny to fail or our fate. God would have known ahead of time by being God that Adamah and Eve would have eaten the fruit. Did you know that fruit is often equated with sex in the ancient world. So technically we can say that by having knowledge, Eve gained the knowledge of sex and that the fruit is only a symbol of sex in this story. So perhaps Genesis 2 is only trying to explain original sin (sex) in a metaphorical sense. They were tempted to do what is not pure. Now every born human since the beginning of time must be cleansed of original sin which sets up the need for baptism. |