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Other Elections - Analysis and Discussion => Gubernatorial/State Elections => Topic started by: Fritz on November 06, 2004, 10:39:21 AM



Title: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: Fritz on November 06, 2004, 10:39:21 AM
Not sure where this should be posted....

It appears the New Progressive Party in Puerto Rico, which favors statehood for the commmonwealth, has made some major gains in the last election.  The party has gained control of both houses of the legislature, as well as the commonwealth's nonvoting respresentative in congress.  The NPP appears to have narrowly lost the gubernatorial election, although the election is close enough to mandate a recount.

A Challenged Election & Uncertain Future for Puerto Rico (http://www.puertorico-herald.org/issues/2004/vol8n45/Poll0845-en.shtml)
 November 5, 2004- Copyright © 2004 PUERTO RICO HERALD. All Rights Reserved.

For the last several days, Aníbal Acevedo Vilá, the Popular Democratic Party (PDP) candidate for Governor of Puerto Rico -- and preliminarily certified winner of the office for the term beginning in January of 2005 -- has been taking on the role of an unambiguously victorious candidate, even though it is possible that his razor-thin winning plurality of votes could be changed after an official recount is finished. It is to begin on Monday and could take a month to conclude.

Meanwhile, Acevedo Vilá’s rival -- NPP ex-Governor Pedro Rosselló and, so far, losing candidate for a term to replace PDP outgoing Governor Sila Calderón – disputes the fact that he actually is behind in the voting. In a press conference held yesterday, he cited the some 14,000 regular votes which, as of Wednesday afternoon had yet to be counted and the some 6000 votes that were cast but protested for one reason or another. By the NPP’s calculation, a sufficient number of these ballots are likely to go for Rosselló, resulting in a total that could exceed that of Acevedo Vilá, even before the official recount is begun.

His spokesperson and campaign director, Frances Rodríguez, was highly critical of Acevedo Vilá for speaking about a "transition" before the official recount is complete. One NPP official, former senator Charlie Rodríguez, accused him of attempting a "democratic coup d’etat."

At a San Juan press conference on Wednesday, Acevedo announced that he is ready to assume the duties of the island’s Chief Executive and that he is trying to reach out to newly elected members of the rival New Progressive Party (NPP), asking them to accept a "patriotic union" across party lines for the good of the island.

The results of Tuesday’s voting established both houses of Puerto Rico’s next legislature in the firm control of the NPP. The Party won 18 seats in the 27-member Senate and 34 in the 51-member House, according to the Elections Commission’s count. A majority of island municipalities remained with or changed hands to NPP candidates. Also in control of the NPP is the post of Resident Commissioner, the island’s non-voting representative in the U.S. House of Representatives. In spite of the recount, PDP candidate Roberto Pratts on Wednesday conceded victory to his NPP rival Luis Fortuño, saying that he did not wish any longer to "keep the island in suspense."

At his press conference, Acevedo Vilá proclaimed that "the people have given the mandate (of governor) to me." He also said that he had spoken by telephone with the NPP winning candidate for the post of Resident Commissioner, Luis Fortuño, with whom he would serve as one of the two top elected officials of Puerto Rico, should his narrow lead in the vote count (0.2%) be sustained by the new vote count. He reported that he had asked the Resident Commissioner Elect for cooperation in the transition phase leading up to the assumption of powers for the newly elected officials, now just two months away.

In spite of the Rosselló campaign protests, the Provisional Governor-Elect has already begun to form a transition team.

The recount is required by law should the voting margin between candidates be less than 0.5%. As the count stood when the Elections Commission declared Acevedo Vilá the provisional winner, he had 953,459 (48.38%) votes island-wide and Pedro Rosselló 949,579 (48.18%). The Puerto Rico Independence Party (PIP) candidate for Governor, Ruben Berríos, polled only 52,660 (2.67%) votes, or less than the 3% minimum number of votes required for a political party to remain official in Puerto Rico.

The interim policy of both candidates seems clear. While Acevedo Vilá is rushing to appear confident and "executive," Pedro Rosselló is putting a "responsible" face on the situation presently existing in Island politics. Through his spokespeople he is saying that Acevedo’s posture is "imprudent" and not in keeping with the very serious crisis that could result from a split government in Puerto Rico.

The implications of such a governing arrangement could have unintended consequences as Puerto Rico seeks solutions for the many issues facing the island and for the territory’s relations with the federal government. With a majority – and perhaps "veto proof" – opposition in the Puerto Rico House and Senate, a PDP governor would have trouble getting legislation passed and appointments confirmed. Likewise, the legislature could see its budgetary priorities ignored.

In Washington, with a political rival sitting in the U.S. Congress, the Governor’s federal agenda could be sabotaged at every turn. Conversely, any initiative of the Resident Commissioner could be blocked by the Government’s Washington lobbyists and by the Puerto Rico Federal Affairs Administration (PRFFA), the huge mainland bureaucracy controlled by La Fortaleza.

Shortly after the election, Provisional Governor Elect Aníbal Acevedo Vilá proclaimed that "the people said with their vote that they want a shared government.''




Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: A18 on November 06, 2004, 11:55:29 AM
Don't want them.


Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: Bono on November 06, 2004, 01:13:44 PM
God help us all.
Fortunately, the feds have to accept them, which I trust they won't.


Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: Fritz on November 06, 2004, 02:19:09 PM
God help us all.
Fortunately, the feds have to accept them, which I trust they won't.

On what grounds would the federal government deny statehood to Puerto Rico?

If the people there want in, they will get in.


Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: Sulfur on November 06, 2004, 02:33:03 PM
The same grounds on which we would deny Canada statehood, I suppose. :)

A better idea would be to give Puerto Rico their independence.


Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: Fritz on November 06, 2004, 02:37:48 PM
Canada is not, and never has been, American territory.  Its residents are not US citizens, and it does not have its sons and daughters serving in the US Military in Iraq and elsewhere, as Puerto Rico does.


Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: Sulfur on November 06, 2004, 02:42:02 PM
It's the culture divide that will keep them out.

Serving in the US Military, while noble, isn't really grounds for admitting a 51st state into the Union. I suspect that you want them to join to help the Democratic party.


Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: Fritz on November 06, 2004, 02:47:19 PM
I asked on what grounds they could be denied statehood, if they applied for it.  Denying statehood to a territory strictly on the basis of "cultural divide" smacks of racism.  And I do think that serving in the military is grounds for granting them statehood, if they want it.  They are US citizens and have been for over half a century.  There is no valid reason for keeping them out, if they want in.


Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: Sulfur on November 06, 2004, 02:53:57 PM
We don't want another culture influencing our politics. By your absurd definition of racism, we'd have to let China enter the Union if they asked.

We'd turn them down, on the basis of a cultural divide, just as we would for Puerto Rico. We have enough Americans who have forgotten the value of freedom as it is.


Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: Fritz on November 06, 2004, 03:01:19 PM
Again- China IS NOT US territory, so the example doesn't apply.  But if we had occupied China for over 100 years, and granted US citizenship to all its residents, and had them in our military, and used the territory for our own military purposes, then I do think we should grant statehood to China if they wanted it.  China, however, would not want it, precisely because of the cultural divide of which you speak.

The "cultural divide" between Puerto Rico and the US is not huge.  Someone who has actually been there may wish to correct or clarify this, but I do think the culture in Puerto Rico more closely resembles that of the US than that of, say, Mexico.  Yes, Puerto Ricans speak Spanish, but they also speak English, and both languages are official on the island.


Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: Sulfur on November 06, 2004, 03:40:12 PM
You said it was racist to not accept them because of a cultural divide. That's the reason we wouldn't accept China. It's the exact same reason.

China is not a US territory, so what? The fact that Puerto Rico is does not change the fact that it's a completely different culture that you just want added to get some more Democrat voters - which is the last thing we need.


Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: Fritz on November 06, 2004, 03:51:14 PM
Like I said, the culture is not "completely different."  I believe the only significant difference is language, and even that is not a big deal since they all speak English, too.

I don't just want them to add Democratic votes.  I'm not sure they would be a solidly Democratic state- they would probably be fairly competitive politically.  As you can see from the article I posted, they are verey competitive in their own party system.  The NPP (Statehood party) would probably become the Republican Party, while the PDP (non-Statehood party) would become the Democratic Party, for the most part.

Whether or not they add votes to one party or another is not and should not be an issue in granting statehood to a territory that applies for it.  I want them in because its the right thing to do.  They are subject to US law and deserve a voice in US Government.  I also think that statehood would provide economic benefits both to the island and to the United States.


Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: bgwah on November 06, 2004, 04:28:13 PM
you just want added to get some more Democrat voters

not exactly, but that would definately be the case with DC statehood.

Does Peurto Rico even pay taxes?


Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon on November 06, 2004, 04:29:11 PM
Sulfur,

I sympathize with your concern (especially as I am the #1 opponent of DC statehood without Guam statehood :))  but Puerto Rico would probably just add a battleground state, not necessarily a Democratic state.

In fact, Puerto Rico is responsible for adding a new Republican to Congress - if results hold up, Luis Fortuno (PNP) will be the resident commissioner for Puerto Rico and he will certainly join the Republican caucus.  (He's the former Republican national committeeman for Puerto Rico)  He can't cast a vote, but he can debate and stuff.

http://www.luisfortuno.net/


Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: Alcon on November 06, 2004, 06:25:35 PM
I'd suspect that Puerto Rico would end up as a slightly Democratic-leaning battleground state. I haven't really heard any major arguments against this idea. They're U.S. citizens and I'm pretty sure that they will get in if they want in.

"Cultural influence"? Psh. They'd have, what, six house seats? That's hardly going to vastly change the political landscape.


Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: A18 on November 06, 2004, 06:34:51 PM
I just don't know. I'm not necessarily flat out against it... but, I just don't know how "Americanized" Puerto Rico is.


Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on November 06, 2004, 08:08:12 PM
It's hard to say what Puerto Rican politics would look like after statehood.  If the PPD and PNP remain intact, then you would end up with a battleground State with the PNP probably becoming a moderate Republican party.  However, if they don't, then Puerto Rico would become overwhelmingly Democratic.


Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon on November 06, 2004, 10:49:50 PM
If the GOP supported statehood for PR and actively got behind it, more than likely the entire PNP would join the GOP.  If we didn't, then only a bare majority of the party would and PR would have a permanent Democratic tilt.


Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon on November 06, 2004, 11:00:25 PM
And what could be more American than a results map on their election commission web site!

http://196.42.5.2/principal.aspx?Cargo=GOB&Nivel=MAPA&L2=DS


Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: Nym90 on November 07, 2004, 10:22:11 PM
I just don't know. I'm not necessarily flat out against it... but, I just don't know how "Americanized" Puerto Rico is.

As someone who has been there, I can say it's pretty Americanized. I was only in San Juan, which I assume would be the most Americanized portion of it, but I was certainly able to get around just fine even though I don't speak very much Spanish.


Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: Huckleberry Finn on November 09, 2004, 04:35:59 PM
God help us all.
Fortunately, the feds have to accept them, which I trust they won't.
Us?

Hey come on! You're from Portugal. I don't think that the statehood of Puerto Rico would hurt your country very much.



Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: hoshie on November 13, 2004, 01:55:29 AM
If the GOP supported statehood for PR and actively got behind it, more than likely the entire PNP would join the GOP.  If we didn't, then only a bare majority of the party would and PR would have a permanent Democratic tilt.

No need for a GOP/PNP merger. There is a GOP in PR. See http://www.goppr.org/ .


Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: Fritz on November 13, 2004, 08:06:45 AM
Here's the latest news on the Governor's race in PR.  This could get interesting!!!!

The Case For An Immediate Recount (http://www.puertorico-herald.org/issues/2004/vol8n46/PRR0846-en.shtml)

by John Marino

November 12, 2004
Copyright © 2004 THE PUERTO RICO HERALD. All Rights Reserved.

. What seemed like the stupidest idea of post-Election Day Puerto Rico has suddenly become its brightest. Three days into "completing the vote count" from the Election Day governor’s race, it has become increasingly clear that a full vote recount is in order.
When the State Elections Commission preliminarily certified the vote count in the gubernatorial election on Nov. 3, with just over 98 percent of the vote counted, the Popular Democratic Party’s Aníbal Acevedo Vilá had a 3,880 vote lead over New Progressive Party La Fortaleza hopeful Pedro Rosselló.

There were some 30,000 votes, half disputed, left to count, more than an opportunity for the lead to change. It seemed imminently sensible to complete the count and add up the score, before going into a complete recount.

But ever since Election Day, it has been clear that a complete recount would likely take place. That’s because any candidate has the opportunity to ask for one if the margin in the race is 0.5 percent or less of the overall vote, which in this case is 9,000 or 10,000 votes. Given the cards on the table, nobody expects either candidate to win by more than the amount that would grant either of them a recount upon request under local election law.

That’s why the SEC originally announced that it would undertake a recount and a final accounting of Election Day votes at the same time. It seemed absurd at the time, but that was before the current process underway had begun.

Although all three parties had agreed to the plan, the PDP filed a complaint over the weekend citing local election law in arguing that a completion of Election Day returns should be finalized before undertaking a recount. SEC President Aurelio Gracia said he preferred the original plan, but he acceded to the PDP request, saying its arguments were based in law, and he agreed to complete the Election Day count before completing the recount.

Only a handful of precincts in San Juan have been counted since the process recommenced on Monday. That’s because not only are the additional 30,000 ballots being counted, but also polling station tally sheets are being rechecked as part of the process. Since they are apparently rife with mathematical errors, in many cases, ballot boxes are being reopened and recounted. The average rate of voter box recounts ranges from 20 percent to 60 percent of all votes at the polling stations checked so far.

In essence, a partial recount is occurring along with a completion of the Election Day count. About half of those 30,000 ballots are hand-added ballots, and each one has to be verified to ensure that the voter was properly registered and hadn’t voted elsewhere, which is also dragging out the process.

Current estimates put the length of the current process in about three weeks. That means that a complete recount could not begin until late November or early December. While the SEC still believes it will finish the recount before Christmas, it will nonetheless add an extra month to the uncertainty surrounding the current election. Instead of Thanksgiving, Puerto Ricans now likely won’t know who their next governor is until Christmas.

While the PDP has the letter of the law on its side, any moral ground supporting its argument is disintegrating rapidly under its feet.

PDP officials first argued for completing the count on the grounds that Acevedo Vilá’s lead would widen by a sufficient margin that a recount might be unnecessary. They now say that the lead might change day by day, but won’t change by more than a couple hundred votes at the end the tally sheet review. Current trends bear that out (Rosselló had cut into Acevedo Vilá’s lead by about 80 votes after three days of counting.)

Now the PDP mantra is that a recount does not have to take place. It’s not automatic. It has to be requested under the law. And Rosselló does not have to ask for one, PDP officials say. The current tally sheet check is enough. It’s a reliable process.

"Why does the NPP have to push for a recount when this is a much faster and trustworthy process," PDP Electoral Commissioner Gerardo Cruz told reporters. "Now we have opened about 20 percent of the boxes, but a recount would imply opening all of them and re-counting every single vote."

When asked whether the PDP would opt not to ask for a recount should it lose the lead during the tally sheet review, Cruz said: "It's something Acevedo Vila would need to decide."

The NPP has made clear since the night of the election it wants a recount. It’s the party’s right under the law, and it could even be seen as acting negligently to its supporters if it declined to seek one.

All this week, party leaders have been attacking Gracia for his acceptance of the PDP plan to separate the two processes. And they have been threatening to file a federal lawsuit against the SEC in order to halt the review, and get a complete recount started immediately.

The NPP finally filed its suit Thursday, which seeks a halt to the tally sheet review and the transition committee meetings between the Calderón administration and the Acevedo Vilá team. It argues, rightly, a full recount of votes is needed to determine who will be the next governor.

Now the NPP should stop some of its officials, such as electoral commissioner Thomas Rivera Schatz, from launching some of the more vitriolic verbal attacks against Gracia.

It's a political style that about half Puerto Rico, give or take a few, rejected at the polls when they voted against Rosselló. And it's a big part of the reason the NPP has, so far, come up short in the gubernatorial race.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


John Marino, Managing Editor of The San Juan Star, writes the weekly Puerto Rico Report column for the Puerto Rico Herald. He can be reached directly at: Marino@coqui.net
 


Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: muon2 on November 13, 2004, 09:58:12 AM
And what could be more American than a results map on their election commission web site!

http://196.42.5.2/principal.aspx?Cargo=GOB&Nivel=MAPA&L2=DS
And the PDP is red and PNP is blue, just like we'd expect on the Atlas. :)


Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on November 13, 2004, 12:56:59 PM

No need for a GOP/PNP merger. There is a GOP in PR. See http://www.goppr.org/ .

About all the current GOP organization in PR does is send meaningless delegates to the GOP conventions and funnel contributions to the national party.  If the GOP does not arrange a merger with the PNP, then after statehood the PR House delegation is pretty much guarenteed to align with the Dems since the PDP members will all vote with the Dems and the PNP members would split between the Dems and the GOP.


Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon on November 13, 2004, 03:16:54 PM
Puerto Rico has a very active Young Republican federation and holds 2 of the 11 seats on the national YR board.


Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on November 13, 2004, 11:37:08 PM
And what could be more American than a results map on their election commission web site!

http://196.42.5.2/principal.aspx?Cargo=GOB&Nivel=MAPA&L2=DS
And the PDP is red and PNP is blue, just like we'd expect on the Atlas. :)
Not only that, but the PIP is green, but others are black instead of orange. :(


Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: A18 on November 13, 2004, 11:41:39 PM
I guess let them in if they want in. But we should also use it as an opportunity to enlarge the House of Representatives.


Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: Fritz on November 20, 2004, 09:53:11 AM
I will post weekly updates from the Puerto Rico Herald here.  This gets more interesting every week....

The Recount: A Death of a Thousand Cuts (http://www.puertorico-herald.org/issues/2004/vol8n47/Poll0847-en.shtml)

November 19, 2004
Copyright © 2004 PUERTO RICO HERALD. All Rights Reserved. 

As the week closes, the Puerto Rican populace is still far from knowing who will be its next governor and, as events are playing out, the recount of votes to determine the winner is still weeks – if not months – away. There has yet to be a ballot-by-ballot recount of the 1,968,503 votes cast. After initial wrangling with officials of the three political parties, and several changes in his announced position, State Elections Commission (CEE) President, Aurelio Gracia, ultimately declared that a "general recount" of the island’s 7,268 polling places (colegios) scattered within its 110 precincts should precede any review of each and every vote.

The recount was called automatically when Popular Democratic Party (PDP) candidate Aníbal Acevedo Vilá’s vote margin over New Progressive Party (NPP) candidate Pedro Rosselló was less than 0.5%. According to the CEE, if the "general recount" should increase either candidate’s winning margin by more than that percentage, then a vote-by-vote recount will not be held. This result, however, appears unlikely. The recount has been ongoing for two weeks and so far only about 30% of the colegios have been surveyed, mostly in the San Juan area. The PDP favors limiting the process to a "general recount," while the NPP wants every vote cast to be counted.

The convoluted recount process has occasioned a partisan political circus on the island. Acevedo Vilá, presuming himself to be the ultimate victor, has launched a full-scale transition process. Pedro Rosselló, at first scornful of his rival’s public posturing, has now "gone public" with calls for an investigation of election fraud. Numerous lawsuits have been filed in Commonwealth and Federal courts. After several incidents of boisterous behavior at the CEE, political candidates have been barred from observing the recount process. Calls have gone forth to Washington for the election to be investigated by federal authorities. Accusations and political rhetoric have reached pre-election decibel levels.

This painful process is beginning to remind Puerto Ricans of the ancient Chinese torture in which the condemned victim is slowly put to death by means of 1000 small -- but cumulatively lethal -- knife cuts.

On Tuesday, New Progressive Party (NPP) candidate Pedro Rosselló broke his post election silence in a television discourse, accusing the Popular Democratic Party (PDP) of "fraud," suggesting that during the initial vote count its precinct workers improperly and illegally marked ballots intended to count for the Puerto Rican Independence Party (PIP) candidate Rubén Berríos, in the column for PDP candidate Aníbal Acevedo Vilá. Also, the NPP has appealed to the federal court that the "general recount" and the vote-by-vote review should be done simultaneously, and the government transition led by Acevedo Vilá should be halted.

A major bone of contention to emerge since November 2nd is how "mixed vote" ballots are to be treated in the overall count. The official ballot used on November 2nd provided voters the choice to either mark their ballots for each candidate for each office regardless of party or, by marking a box under the logo of a given political party, automatically selecting all candidates from that party who appeared on the ballot. Once that "party box" is checked, the voter is finished and no other marks on the ballot should be made.

After checking the "party box," should the voter continue to make marks for candidates from other political parties, he/she has made a "double vote," which, in the opinion of the NPP has rendered the ballot technically invalid. The PDP argues that the additional marks represent the "real intention of the voter" and should count for the candidates favored by the additional marks.

Most "mixed votes" are assumed to be cast by Puerto Rico Independence Party (PIP) voters who, by marking the "party box," voted for PIP candidate Rubén Berríos for governor and then selected another candidate for the same office, presumably PDP candidate Aníbal Acevedo Vilá. If these "mixed votes" are permitted to be counted, an automatic conflict would occur between the PIP and PDP candidates. If they are judged to be invalid, it could be an advantage for NPP candidate Pedro Rosselló.

No one can know how many "mixed votes" have been cast until a "vote by vote" recount is undertaken, and there is no way of knowing how they were evaluated by vote counters at the colegio level. The "mixed votes" are considered to be of enormous importance for all three candidates. The PIP hopes to increase its vote count in order to exceed the 3% of total vote and maintain its status as an official party, the PDP is banking on a count that increases Acevedo Vilá’s margin over Rosselló to beyond 0.5% and the NPP wants to see the vote count increase for Rosselló and decrease for the PDP candidates, so as to eventually win the general election and take La Fortaleza.

PIP activists have filed suit locally, demanding that the "mixed votes" be counted, saying that they had cast ballots in that fashion, believing that their vote for the PDP candidate would be registered. NPP lawyers argue that they are technically illegal, since a "mixed vote" is, in effect, a double vote and awarding it to either is unfair to both. The position of the PDP is that precedence is on their side since "double votes" have been considered valid in the past and counted as votes for the candidate additionally marked.

Yesterday, the lawsuit filed by Rosselló and the NPP was heard by federal judge Daniel Dominguez who asked the plaintiffs to present evidence as to why the claims should be adjudicated by a federal court instead of in a local jurisdiction. That request would seem to indicate that the matter will go on for some days or weeks before Judge Dominguez. Still up in the air is whether the "mixed votes" should be counted at the discretion of the CEE, counted in favor of the straight party vote, counted in favor of the additional marks made on the ballot or that the "mixed votes" should be declared invalid. One press estimate puts the number of possible "mixed vote" ballots at 28,000.


Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: Fritz on November 20, 2004, 07:56:25 PM
This "mixed vote" fiasco sounds like a problem that was easily avoidable- I wonder whose bright idea it was to design the ballot that way?

Have ballots like this ever been used in any actual state (check the party box to vote for all party candidates)???


Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on November 21, 2004, 03:52:39 PM
This "mixed vote" fiasco sounds like a problem that was easily avoidable- I wonder whose bright idea it was to design the ballot that way?

Have ballots like this ever been used in any actual state (check the party box to vote for all party candidates)???

Yes.  It's used here in SC.  And under SC law if a mixed vote happens, then the ballot for that office is voided since it is treated as  if he voted for two candidates in that election.


Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: jimrtex on November 22, 2004, 07:11:07 AM
This "mixed vote" fiasco sounds like a problem that was easily avoidable- I wonder whose bright idea it was to design the ballot that way?

Have ballots like this ever been used in any actual state (check the party box to vote for all party candidates)???
Straight ticket voting is fairly common in the South, but typically you can override the vote in an individual race.   There have been repeated instances where counting has been messed up on machine voting.  Of course it may have been messed up on hand counts.  A ballot that
is marked:

Straight Ticket
[X] Democrat
[  ] Republican

President
[  ] Kerry
[  ] Bush

is a vote for Kerry, as is this one:

[X] Democrat
[  ] Republican

President
[X] Kerry
[  ] Bush

But this one is for

Straight Ticket
[X] Democrat
[  ] Republican

President
[  ] Kerry
[X] Bush

Is a legal vote for Bush.  So as you count ballots, you have to look at the marks for each race, and if nothing is marked check to see if a straight party box is marked (and there is a candidate of that party in the particular race).

Many voters probably simply mark the straight ticket box, and don't bother with the rest of the races.  But on voting machines, you may have to scroll through all the individual races.  If you did a literal translation of the paper ballot, you would leave the boxes for each race blank.  Someone who had selected a Democrat straight ticket would see:

[  ] Bush
[  ] Kerry

which might have given them the impression that their straight ticket vote hadn't taken effect.   So some machines are programmed in effect to transfer the straight ticket vote to the individual races.  If you did want to vote for Bush, then you would have to switch the vote.

When your party doesn't field a candidate in a race, then a straight ticket ballot has no effect on that race.  But if the machine displays who you have voted in each race, it will give a warning about No Vote Registered.

There have been reports of some voters voting a straight ticket ballot, and in the process of trying to get to the end of the ballot for some non-partisan ballot issues, have voted in the next candidate's race on the ballot, or in some cases un-voting.

There have been reports of misprogrammed machine counts ignoring straight ticket votes, or counting straight ticket votes twice.


Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: LesterMaddox on November 26, 2004, 01:48:22 AM
If it'll encourage them to stay on their island, I'd be all for it, but since I don't think it would, we ought to force independence on them.  It's not like they'll be able to just walk across the border like the Mexicans do.


Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: Alcon on November 26, 2004, 03:18:02 AM
If it'll encourage them to stay on their island, I'd be all for it, but since I don't think it would, we ought to force independence on them.  It's not like they'll be able to just walk across the border like the Mexicans do.

You do know that they are already American citizens, right...? There is not really a "border."


Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: aufs klo on November 26, 2004, 06:07:59 PM
Wow, talk about racisim, or perhaps politics...  I , personally, think it would be great to admit the Puerto Ricians (or whatever) as a state.  Not only would it be great to add a large amount of liberals to the country, (less cynically) I think it would be great to give them the same rights to participate in government as in Alaska and Hawaii.  I'm pro-stathood for all our territories, as it would enhance our image out in the Pacific, but it would also just be nice to let our terratories participate in our democratic-republic.


Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: LesterMaddox on November 27, 2004, 01:44:28 AM
Not racism or politics but culture. Legally, Puerto Ricans may be Americans, but not culturally.  Mexicans are neither.  When you take a look at all the palces in the world that have ethnic strife the last thing in the world the US needs is to become another multi-ethnic powder keg waiting to explode.  We need to slow down immigration to rate at which immigrants can be assimilated.  Immigration, especially Hispanic immigration, is too high right now for assimilation to keep up with the influx.  It's also culture and not skin tone that's at the root of our race problems.  For over three centuries black and white have been two seperate cultures in America, and there is no sign of them melting into a single culture, although each keeps borrowing from the other.


Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: Fritz on November 27, 2004, 10:56:17 AM
Wow.  Lester's post is so blatantly racist, it doesn't deserve an intelligent resopnse.

Moving on, here's the latest news on the recount of the Governor's race:

The Recount: Two Courts Weigh In: A Crisis Brewing (http://www.puertorico-herald.org/issues/2004/vol8n48/Poll0848-en.shtml)

November 26, 2004
Copyright © 2004 PUERTO RICO HERALD. All Rights Reserved. 

As this week began, two recounts of the November 2nd vote in Puerto Rico were underway, ordered by two Puerto Rican courts with separate authority -- and apparently different agendas -- the U.S. Federal Court in San Juan and the Puerto Rico Supreme Court. In response to the court orders, the State Elections Commission (CEE) continued its "general recount," of the 7,373 colegios (voting places) throughout the island while, at the same time, going back to "Colegio # 1" in San Juan to begin a ballot-by-ballot review of every one of the nearly 2 million votes cast.

CEE President, Aurelio Gracia, who had initially rejected the idea of a vote-by-vote recount immediately after the election, was philosophical, concluding that the court orders were timely. "It was looking more and more like a recount would be necessary," he told reporters. He predicted that the count would not be finished until late December.

A major difference between the two court orders related to the estimated 28,000 "mixed votes" thought to be speckled throughout island’s colegios. These are ballots on which the voter placed a mark under a party logo, apparently intending to select the entire slate of that party’s candidates for all offices, but additionally marked candidates from another party for Governor and Resident Commissioner. The Puerto Rico Supreme Court ordered that these votes be counted and credited to the candidates for whom the specific marks were made.

Then, on Tuesday, Judge Daniel Domínguez ruled that the U.S. Federal Courts would assume jurisdiction in the issue of the mixed votes and ordered that the CEE proceed to count the mixed votes but not to adjudicate their validity. Further, they are to be set aside for ultimate consideration by the federal courts. At the same time, he ordered the Puerto Rico Supreme Court to cease acting in the disposition of the "mixed votes." Previously, the local high court had ruled that the mixed votes should be counted and adjudicated by the CEE. Judge Domínguez’ order countermands that process.

How the mixed votes are finally adjudicated will almost surely affect the outcome of the election. If the mixed votes are allowed to stand, Acevedo will likely hold the razor thin plurality he enjoyed on Election Night. If the mixed votes are ruled to be null and void, Rosselló will presumably win with a comfortable plurality. Another possibility is that the federal court could decide that the mixed votes should count for the party selected – in this case the PIP – and Ruben Berríos will have received some 4% of the total vote, enough to qualify the Independent Party to remain as an official Puerto Rican political party.

The federal court’s assumption of jurisdiction over the mixed votes, as well as other aspects of the recount process, is inflaming the political rhetoric on the island.

Already, spokespersons of the political parties are either praising or protesting the court rulings depending upon how they support their positions.

When the federal court ruled last Saturday that the vote-by-vote recount should begin, PDP "provisional winner" Acevedo Vilá, acknowledged that the federal court order needed to be respected, but said he was disappointed by it because it would delay the final outcome. When the same court’s decision to take control of the mixed vote issue came down, the PDP candidate dispatched his lawyers to the federal appellate court in Boston to ask that it be overturned.

Predictably, the NPP’s spokesman, Javier Maymi, expressed satisfaction that two of the petitions that his party had made to the federal court had been granted. The third issue that the NPP brought before Judge Domínguez related to Acevedo Vilá’s transition process, but it is unlikely that the federal courts will intervene in that matter.

The PIP reaction to the court decisions came from its representative on the CEE, Commissioner Juan Dalmau. He was quoted by the Associated Press as saying that if the election is ultimately decided by a federal judge that it would constitute "the crudest success of the colonialism in Puerto Rico."

In a press conference, Judge Domínguez expressed surprise that the Puerto Rico Supreme Court had issued a ruling on the mixed votes, since it had been under his court’s jurisdiction. He called the local court’s action an "insult." A majority of the sitting judges of the Puerto Rico high court were placed there by Governors of the Popular Democratic Party (PDP) that has much to gain if the mixed votes are adjudicated as valid, since apparently most of the disputed ballots were cast by Puerto Rico Independence Party voters who additionally marked for PDP candidate Aníbal Acevedo Vilá.

Judge Domínguez made the decision to adjudicate the mixed votes after reaching the conclusion that the NPP litigation initially complied with the "one man, one vote" precedent set by the U.S. Supreme Court in the Y-2000 national presidential election between George W. Bush and Al Gore. In a split decision, the U.S. high court overruled the Florida Supreme Court and intervened to stop the vote recount then underway in that state, thereby giving Florida’s electoral votes to Bush and the entire election to the Republican candidate.

At the time of the federal court decision on Tuesday, the "general count" of approximately 40% of the colegios had the New Progressive Party (NPP) candidate Pedro Rosselló leading Popular Democratic Party (PDP) candidate Aníbal Acevedo Vilá by a margin of 48.99% to 47.61%.

The CEE stopped the vote recount on Tuesday afternoon to await final instructions by the federal court regarding the mixed votes. The recount process will begin again on Monday to recount all the votes cast on Election Day, to check the accuracy of the reporting done by each colegio to its corresponding precinct and each precinct’s tally sheet to the State Elections Commission and, finally, to count the mixed votes and set them aside without crediting them to any candidate and without revealing how they were marked. That will be for the federal courts to decide.

Courtroom observers are predicting that Judge Domínguez’ decision will rest on three factors: if the mixed votes were counted in the same way in each colegio, what instructions -- if any -- were given to voters as to how and if their mixed votes would be counted and, finally, what has been the clear precedent about the counting of mixed votes in previous elections.


Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: LesterMaddox on November 28, 2004, 01:23:31 AM
Wow.  Lester's post is so blatantly racist, it doesn't deserve an intelligent resopnse.

Meaning that you couldn't come up with an intelligent response, so you decided to insult the messenger instead.

If it's racist to acknowledge the self-evident fact that black and white are two cultures living side by side in America, so be it.  If you fail to see that fact, go visit a church this morning and tell me how integrated it is (or more likely isn't).  Having more than one cultural group in the same area is an invitation to disaster.  Doesn't mean that the invitation will be accepted, as diaster is a busy fellow, with far more invitations than he can possibly accept.


Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: A18 on November 28, 2004, 01:37:25 AM
Lester is right about everyone who's legally an American not being culturally an American. Not all territories should become states, and the person who said that should be hung.

The question is, is PUERTO RICO American enough to become a state. I don't know.


Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: LesterMaddox on November 28, 2004, 01:45:43 AM
Not all territories should become states, and the person who said that should be hung.
Don't need to be that drastic.  Just deport them to Bosnia, Cote d'Ivoire, Darfur, Kashmir, Rwanda, or the like, so they can see for themselves that different cultures can always find a way to live together in harmony.


Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: Fritz on November 28, 2004, 04:42:08 PM
Does anybody have a legal opinion on the news article I posted?

Does the federal court have jurisdiction to adjudicate the mixed vote ballots?  How should this legally be handled? 


Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on November 28, 2004, 07:51:41 PM
The two laws that would seem to be applicable are the first paragraph of 48 USC 864 and/or 28 USC 1343 (a)(3).

Quote from: 48 USC 864
The laws of the United States relating to appeals, certiorari, removal of causes, and other matters or proceedings as between the courts of the United States and the courts of the several States shall govern in such matters and proceedings as between the United States District Court for the District of Puerto Rico and the courts of Puerto Rico.

Quote from: 28 USC 1343
The district courts shall have original jurisdiction of any civil action authorized by law to be commenced by any person: ... To redress the deprivation, under color of any State law, statute, ordinance, regulation, custom or usage, of any right, privilege or immunity secured by the Constitution of the United States or by any Act of Congress providing for equal rights of citizens or of all persons within the jurisdiction of the United States;

It's a bit of a thin reed to build jurisdiction on, but given an activist-minded judge who thinks he can do better than the local judges, it's probably thick enough.


Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: Colin on November 28, 2004, 08:36:04 PM
Lester Maddox, Phillip, have either of you ever been to Puerto Rico? If you have you will know that besides speaking Spanish, along with English, they are very Americanized and very culturally atuned to the United States. It would be no more different than Hawaii. Hawaii is culturally different from the rest of the United States but that doesn't mean it doesn't deserve to be a state. I think Puerto Rico should become state number 51 and stop this limbo between statehood and independence.


Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: A18 on November 28, 2004, 08:41:06 PM
ColinW, I'm not against Puerto Rican statehood. In fact, I'm more for it than against. I was just pointing out that not every territory should become a state.


Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: Colin on November 28, 2004, 08:44:02 PM
ColinW, I'm not against Puerto Rican statehood. In fact, I'm more for it than against. I was just pointing out that not every territory should become a state.
I wouldn't want every territory to become a state either until they either decide they want to become a state or if the people of the United States feel that they should become a state. I do not think that American Samoa should become a state nor the Northern Marianas Islands but I do believe that Puerto Rico should become a state.


Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: English on December 02, 2004, 12:23:29 PM
Good idea!
Another reliably Democrat state! :)
That should counteract Alabama or Mississippi at least.


Title: Re: Puerto Rico- moving towards statehood?
Post by: M on December 02, 2004, 10:02:13 PM
An excellent idea! I never thought the USA should be limited to the arbitrary number of fifty, and the South is as fertile an avenue for expansion as the north.