Talk Elections

Forum Community => Mock Parliament => Topic started by: Dr. Cynic on June 15, 2011, 11:29:32 PM



Title: Antillan Constitutional Convention
Post by: Dr. Cynic on June 15, 2011, 11:29:32 PM
Mr. Speaker

Order! Order!

Honorable Members, the Constitutional convention of the First Antillan Parliament is now convened. The floor is open to Hon. Members who wish to speak.

David Valentine

Mr. Speaker, I propose the following:

 - That the govt. elections occur no later than 5 months after election or so long as confidence in the government may be maintained.

 - That the Speaker of the House be elected independently of the govt. by MPs.

 - The creation of a Supreme Court of Antilla is hereby created to uphold and interpret the laws of Antilla with no more than three Justices at a time.


Title: Re: Antillan Constitutional Convention
Post by: Mopsus on June 16, 2011, 12:18:20 PM
Mr Alexander Burke:

I have two proposals of my own:

 - The authority to organise Parliament shall be vested in a Prime Minister, who shall be elected by a majority of Parliament.
 - The Prime Minister shall have the authority to create and dissolve committees at his discretion. Each bill of legislation must be introduced and passed in the appropriate committee before being introduced in Parliament at large. The party affiliation of the members of each committee must be proportional to the party affiliation of Parliament at large. The authority to organise a committee is vested in the chairman of said committee, who shall be nominated by the Prime Minister and approved of by a majority of the committee he is appointed to chair, and who must also be a member of the committee he is appointed to chair. No man may serve as the chairman of multiple committees, and no man may serve as Prime Minister and chairman of a committee.   


Title: Re: Antillan Constitutional Convention
Post by: Insula Dei on June 16, 2011, 12:30:25 PM
OOC: Uhm, I was under the impression that the game sort of tacitly assumed that the nation had been going steadily for some amount of time already. Wouldn't that sort of make an IC Constitutional Convention self-defeating?


Title: Re: Antillan Constitutional Convention
Post by: Mopsus on June 16, 2011, 12:36:54 PM
OOC: Uhm, I was under the impression that the game sort of tacitly assumed that the nation had been going steadily for some amount of time already. Wouldn't that sort of make an IC Constitutional Convention self-defeating?
Well, we could pretend the constitution that results from this convention is the one we've been using for hundreds of years, couldn't we?


Title: Re: Antillan Constitutional Convention
Post by: Insula Dei on June 16, 2011, 12:39:52 PM
OOC: Uhm, I was under the impression that the game sort of tacitly assumed that the nation had been going steadily for some amount of time already. Wouldn't that sort of make an IC Constitutional Convention self-defeating?
Well, we could pretend the constitution that results from this convention is the one we've been using for hundreds of years, couldn't we?

That's a way around that, yes.


Title: Re: Antillan Constitutional Convention
Post by: bullmoose88 on June 16, 2011, 12:41:16 PM
Ooc: wouldn't you all much rather have me, out of convention, appoint the leader of the majority party or coalition or person most likely to have a working govt to form a govt in the kings name? Otherwise your pm is like a speaker. Which is sort of true but sort of isn't.


Title: Re: Antillan Constitutional Convention
Post by: Atlas Has Shrugged on June 16, 2011, 12:49:15 PM
Ooc: wouldn't you all much rather have me, out of convention, appoint the leader of the majority party or coalition or person most likely to have a working govt to form a govt in the kings name? Otherwise your pm is like a speaker. Which is sort of true but sort of isn't.

OOC: I rather see Party leaders take office. By the way, I listed myself as a member of the National Patriot Party, a small imitation of the UKIP, so if anyone else wants to join, we can be a small block or coaltion partner.


Title: Re: Antillan Constitutional Convention
Post by: Insula Dei on June 16, 2011, 12:50:29 PM
Ooc: wouldn't you all much rather have me, out of convention, appoint the leader of the majority party or coalition or person most likely to have a working govt to form a govt in the kings name? Otherwise your pm is like a speaker. Which is sort of true but sort of isn't.

I'm with Bullmoose on that one.


Title: Re: Antillan Constitutional Convention
Post by: Barnes on June 16, 2011, 01:01:53 PM
Ooc: wouldn't you all much rather have me, out of convention, appoint the leader of the majority party or coalition or person most likely to have a working govt to form a govt in the kings name? Otherwise your pm is like a speaker. Which is sort of true but sort of isn't.

Ooc: That'd be fine with me.  I just think we should establish some kind of party standings in Parliament, first.


Title: Re: Antillan Constitutional Convention
Post by: bullmoose88 on June 16, 2011, 01:07:08 PM
Ooc: that and some caretaker govt. Who wants to show up at the palace and convince me they can hold a govt for more than a few rl hours?


Title: Re: Antillan Constitutional Convention
Post by: lilTommy on June 16, 2011, 01:14:46 PM
I took at stab at standings in the Revival section, but added National Patriot now:

•SocialDemocrats (35.3%): 177
•Liberal (21.3%): 107
•Cooperative (20.0%): 100
•Nationalist(Pf) (10.0%): 50
•PopularMovement (7.3%): 36
•NationalPatriot (6.1%): 30



Title: Re: Antillan Constitutional Convention
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on June 16, 2011, 01:16:21 PM
Some random numbers for our parliament... let's say a parliament of 150 seats. This isn't a big country, after all. As for parties... I think we have to have an unclear election result, right? At least to start with. So...

Social Democrats - 54
Popular Movement Party* - 31
Liberal Party** - 23
Pitfarris Nationalist Party - 22
Cooperative Party - 14
Independents - 4
National Patriot Party - 2

Which gives us a parliament without a natural majority and with significant representation for a very wide range of interests.

*I'm assuming that this is Conservative or Christian Democratic in some way.
**I'm assuming that these guys will be fairly right-wing as well.


Title: Re: Antillan Constitutional Convention
Post by: Insula Dei on June 16, 2011, 01:17:19 PM
ooc:Current party standings in terms of active members:

SDP : 4
PNP: 3
Liberal: 1
PMP: 1
National Patriot: 1
Co-op: 1

I do suppose that folding the Liberal, PMP and NP parties into one centrist to centre-rightwing party wouldn't be too bad an idea (?) And the Pitfarrian nationalist cause is very well represented right now.

So in terms of the government, I think we're currently seeing the last months of a SDP-Co-op government, with elections imminent.


Title: Re: Antillan Constitutional Convention
Post by: Barnes on June 16, 2011, 01:17:55 PM
Some random numbers for our parliament... let's say a parliament of 150 seats. This isn't a big country, after all. As for parties... I think we have to have an unclear election result, right? At least to start with. So...

Social Democrats - 54
Popular Movement Party* - 31
Liberal Party** - 23
Pitfarris Nationalist Party - 22
Cooperative Party - 14
Independents - 4
National Patriot Party - 2

Which gives us a parliament without a natural majority and with significant representation for a very wide range of interests.

*I'm assuming that this is Conservative or Christian Democratic in some way.
**I'm assuming that these guys will be fairly right-wing as well.

I'm quite interested in this.


Title: Re: Antillan Constitutional Convention
Post by: Insula Dei on June 16, 2011, 01:20:48 PM
Some random numbers for our parliament... let's say a parliament of 150 seats. This isn't a big country, after all. As for parties... I think we have to have an unclear election result, right? At least to start with. So...

Social Democrats - 54
Popular Movement Party* - 31
Liberal Party** - 23
Pitfarris Nationalist Party - 22
Cooperative Party - 14
Independents - 4
National Patriot Party - 2

Which gives us a parliament without a natural majority and with significant representation for a very wide range of interests.

*I'm assuming that this is Conservative or Christian Democratic in some way.
**I'm assuming that these guys will be fairly right-wing as well.

I agree with you on the order of magnitude you give all the parties right now. This does look a lot like Sweden now, doesn't it?


Title: Re: Antillan Constitutional Convention
Post by: lilTommy on June 16, 2011, 01:23:07 PM
Works for me... this is after all a mildly scandinavian country


Title: Re: Antillan Constitutional Convention
Post by: Barnes on June 16, 2011, 01:24:04 PM
Also, as far as voting on bills go, I think the fairest way to do it would have the RL players to decided internally how their party would vote on a said bill and then inform the Speaker, GM, whoever, who would tally them all up.


Title: Re: Antillan Constitutional Convention
Post by: Mopsus on June 16, 2011, 01:30:19 PM
ooc:Current party standings in terms of active members:

SDP : 4
PNP: 3
Liberal: 1
PMP: 1
National Patriot: 1
Co-op: 1

I do suppose that folding the Liberal, PMP and NP parties into one centrist to centre-rightwing party wouldn't be too bad an idea (?) And the Pitfarrian nationalist cause is very well represented right now.

So in terms of the government, I think we're currently seeing the last months of a SDP-Co-op government, with elections imminent.
I would be absolutely opposed to merging the LP, NP, and PMP, for what it's worth.


Title: Re: Antillan Constitutional Convention
Post by: Atlas Has Shrugged on June 16, 2011, 01:57:57 PM
ooc:Current party standings in terms of active members:

SDP : 4
PNP: 3
Liberal: 1
PMP: 1
National Patriot: 1
Co-op: 1

I do suppose that folding the Liberal, PMP and NP parties into one centrist to centre-rightwing party wouldn't be too bad an idea (?) And the Pitfarrian nationalist cause is very well represented right now.

So in terms of the government, I think we're currently seeing the last months of a SDP-Co-op government, with elections imminent.
I would be absolutely opposed to merging the LP, NP, and PMP, for what it's worth.
I rather see lose coalitions, then 3 main parties.


Title: Re: Antillan Constitutional Convention
Post by: Vazdul (Formerly Chairman of the Communist Party of Ontario) on June 16, 2011, 03:08:54 PM
ooc:Current party standings in terms of active members:

SDP : 4
PNP: 3
Liberal: 1
PMP: 1
National Patriot: 1
Co-op: 1

I do suppose that folding the Liberal, PMP and NP parties into one centrist to centre-rightwing party wouldn't be too bad an idea (?) And the Pitfarrian nationalist cause is very well represented right now.

So in terms of the government, I think we're currently seeing the last months of a SDP-Co-op government, with elections imminent.
I would be absolutely opposed to merging the LP, NP, and PMP, for what it's worth.
I rather see lose coalitions, then 3 main parties.

This. It would be more interesting to have parties with similar, yet not identical goals be forced to work together to form a majority. Two-party or even three-party systems are boring.


Title: Re: Antillan Constitutional Convention
Post by: Mopsus on June 16, 2011, 03:17:40 PM
ooc:Current party standings in terms of active members:

SDP : 4
PNP: 3
Liberal: 1
PMP: 1
National Patriot: 1
Co-op: 1

I do suppose that folding the Liberal, PMP and NP parties into one centrist to centre-rightwing party wouldn't be too bad an idea (?) And the Pitfarrian nationalist cause is very well represented right now.

So in terms of the government, I think we're currently seeing the last months of a SDP-Co-op government, with elections imminent.
I would be absolutely opposed to merging the LP, NP, and PMP, for what it's worth.
I rather see lose coalitions, then 3 main parties.

This. It would be more interesting to have parties with similar, yet not identical goals be forced to work together to form a majority. Two-party or even three-party systems are boring.
I don't oppose coalitions, I just oppose a coalition with those two particular parties.


Title: Re: Antillan Constitutional Convention
Post by: lilTommy on June 16, 2011, 03:21:25 PM
Social Democrats - 54
Popular Movement Party* - 31
Liberal Party** - 23 ***
Pitfarris Nationalist Party - 22
Cooperative Party - 14
Independents - 4
National Patriot Party - 2

Which gives us a parliament without a natural majority and with significant representation for a very wide range of interests.

*I'm assuming that this is Conservative or Christian Democratic in some way.
**I'm assuming that these guys will be fairly right-wing as well.


So we have our groupings?
*** i would assume since these guys would be more like German Free Democrats? who can speak to the Liberals?


Title: Re: Antillan Constitutional Convention
Post by: Swedish Rainbow Capitalist Cheese on June 19, 2011, 08:53:47 PM
The easiest way would be to first determine what sort of election system the country has before figuring out how many seats every party has.

I'm guessing it's some sort of PR, either STV or D'Hondt

Then as the region's hopefully start to shape up, based on their demographics and political profile calculate what the popular vote in each region was at the last election, add the regions together to get a national result, and from that calculate the number of seats for each party. It sounds complicated, but based on my own experience that's the way to get the most accurate results, and it will make things easier for calculating future election results.

 


Title: Re: Antillan Constitutional Convention
Post by: Swedish Rainbow Capitalist Cheese on June 19, 2011, 09:18:13 PM
Also am I the only one who think the Prime Minister should instead be called Hand of the King? :P


Title: Re: Antillan Constitutional Convention
Post by: ilikeverin on June 19, 2011, 10:05:00 PM
Also am I the only one who think the Prime Minister should instead be called Hand of the King? :P

;D


Title: Re: Antillan Constitutional Convention
Post by: bullmoose88 on June 19, 2011, 10:44:03 PM
OOC:  I'm thinking that you guys might want to decide how much of the constitution you want to be erm...for lack of a better word...codified...and how much you want to be a mishmash of convention, pieces of legislation, past and present royal actions, past and present parliamentary actions...history etc.


You also might wish to either flush out some sort of history (political I assume), and decide what, if anything that might be been around prior to now is in effect.  

Shrug.  Thats all.

Off with your heads. :)


Title: Re: Antillan Constitutional Convention
Post by: Vazdul (Formerly Chairman of the Communist Party of Ontario) on June 20, 2011, 03:06:47 AM
Also am I the only one who think the Prime Minister should instead be called Hand of the King? :P

That sounds more like a military office...


Title: Re: Antillan Constitutional Convention
Post by: afleitch on June 22, 2011, 07:46:12 AM
OOC:  I'm thinking that you guys might want to decide how much of the constitution you want to be erm...for lack of a better word...codified...and how much you want to be a mishmash of convention, pieces of legislation, past and present royal actions, past and present parliamentary actions...history etc.

In short; most of it. This game never gets off the ground as people get stuck at the 'constitutional convention' side of things. Let's have basic points of order and go with a British style system. People want to play the Parliament side of things; that is where fun is to be had. Once the game is established we can look at creating a clearer set of rules.


Title: Re: Antillan Constitutional Convention
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on June 22, 2011, 08:10:23 AM
Yeah... look at how quickly people got stuck into the Parliamentary debate thread.


Title: Re: Antillan Constitutional Convention
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on June 22, 2011, 08:23:23 AM
Proposed government structure.

1. Parliamentary regime with a figurehead monarchy. In other words, a Westminster system. It's simple, doesn't require masses of constitutional wrangling and gridlock Atlasia style is very unlikely to develop. In other words, it's ideal.

2. Parliament of 150 seats elected by closed-list proportional representation from very large constituencies. Again, as simple as possible. This means that unless you represent a small party, whether you make it back into Parliament at election time mostly depends on your position within your own party. Which is ideal for a game like this. The number of seats per constituency will be set in stone and determined largely by politics.

3. Two sub-national government structures to underline the differences between the island and the mainland. Pitfarris has a devolved Assembly (not very strong; perhaps like some of the aborted attempts in Northern Ireland during the Troubles) and weak local government, while the island of Antillia has no regional governments (of any sort) but has strong local government based on a city/county (the latter of which are called 'regions' here) split. Most of this is fairly unimportant to how we play the game, but is essential background noise.

4. The civil service will - as in many small countries - be extremely powerful. It will, however, be formally apolitical, functioning like the British Civil Service, rather than civil service groups in the U.S. Again, this is simple and ought to be attractive to a certain sort of player. It's also not essential, so that if we don't get such players, it's no problem.

5. Everything else can be integrated into the game as we go along.

---

Comments?


Title: Re: Antillan Constitutional Convention
Post by: bullmoose88 on June 22, 2011, 08:52:47 AM
Suitable. Now can someone cobble together a government here that has the confidence of the house.  If so id like to meet you to show off my digs etc.


Title: Re: Antillan Constitutional Convention
Post by: lilTommy on June 22, 2011, 09:43:07 AM
Proposed government structure.

1. Parliamentary regime with a figurehead monarchy. In other words, a Westminster system. It's simple, doesn't require masses of constitutional wrangling and gridlock Atlasia style is very unlikely to develop. In other words, it's ideal.

2. Parliament of 150 seats elected by closed-list proportional representation from very large constituencies. Again, as simple as possible. This means that unless you represent a small party, whether you make it back into Parliament at election time mostly depends on your position within your own party. Which is ideal for a game like this. The number of seats per constituency will be set in stone and determined largely by politics.

3. Two sub-national government structures to underline the differences between the island and the mainland. Pitfarris has a devolved Assembly (not very strong; perhaps like some of the aborted attempts in Northern Ireland during the Troubles) and weak local government, while the island of Antillia has no regional governments (of any sort) but has strong local government based on a city/county (the latter of which are called 'regions' here) split. Most of this is fairly unimportant to how we play the game, but is essential background noise.

4. The civil service will - as in many small countries - be extremely powerful. It will, however, be formally apolitical, functioning like the British Civil Service, rather than civil service groups in the U.S. Again, this is simple and ought to be attractive to a certain sort of player. It's also not essential, so that if we don't get such players, it's no problem.

5. Everything else can be integrated into the game as we go along.

---

Comments?

Just grand :) i have two comments:

#2 - Parliament: can we try and get a map once we flush out the details (who dosen't like a good map!) i suggest since we have maps for the counties in place for Bronseland, Peterford and Pitfarris that these county borders be used as the "constitiencies"? In counties with small populations we can have two/or more counties combined that way each county roughly sends the same number of members?   
#3 - I rather like that idea, since it gives the Cooperatives something to fight for (regional level government, and something in common with the Nationalists)



Title: Re: Antillan Constitutional Convention
Post by: Vazdul (Formerly Chairman of the Communist Party of Ontario) on June 22, 2011, 01:38:48 PM
Proposed government structure.

1. Parliamentary regime with a figurehead monarchy. In other words, a Westminster system. It's simple, doesn't require masses of constitutional wrangling and gridlock Atlasia style is very unlikely to develop. In other words, it's ideal.

2. Parliament of 150 seats elected by closed-list proportional representation from very large constituencies. Again, as simple as possible. This means that unless you represent a small party, whether you make it back into Parliament at election time mostly depends on your position within your own party. Which is ideal for a game like this. The number of seats per constituency will be set in stone and determined largely by politics.

3. Two sub-national government structures to underline the differences between the island and the mainland. Pitfarris has a devolved Assembly (not very strong; perhaps like some of the aborted attempts in Northern Ireland during the Troubles) and weak local government, while the island of Antillia has no regional governments (of any sort) but has strong local government based on a city/county (the latter of which are called 'regions' here) split. Most of this is fairly unimportant to how we play the game, but is essential background noise.

4. The civil service will - as in many small countries - be extremely powerful. It will, however, be formally apolitical, functioning like the British Civil Service, rather than civil service groups in the U.S. Again, this is simple and ought to be attractive to a certain sort of player. It's also not essential, so that if we don't get such players, it's no problem.

5. Everything else can be integrated into the game as we go along.

---

Comments?

1. Approved.

2. To simplify things, I suggest that constituencies be region-wide. Perhaps separate St. Mark's proper from the rest of Marksland for this purpose. I have two suggestions for how many seats are apportioned to each region.

     A. Variable, according to population. The number of seats apportioned to each region changes with each census.

     B. Set in stone. The number of seats apportioned to each region is the same as it was when Parliament was founded.

Option B could provide for an interesting scenario where less populous regions are overrepresented, and could provide fuel for some interesting debate.

3, 4, 5. Sounds good.