Talk Elections

General Politics => U.S. General Discussion => Topic started by: Bacon King on July 13, 2011, 07:22:59 PM



Title: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Bacon King on July 13, 2011, 07:22:59 PM
Just heard it on the Eric Ericson talk radio show. Here's a link to a news story: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/58937.html

From what I've gathered, apparently after two hours of the talks, Obama chewed Cantor out for five minutes straight, leaving him speechless, then Obama subsequently declared he'd "take this to the American people" got out of his chair and abruptly exited, slamming the door behind him.

(edit- found better article)


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Ebowed on July 13, 2011, 07:23:55 PM
hells yeah


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Paul Kemp on July 13, 2011, 07:29:10 PM
Cantor is a little siht so I'm amused by this.

That being said, it doesn't help things at all.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Frodo on July 13, 2011, 07:29:33 PM
Awesome!  Obama finally reveals he has a spine of steel underneath his suit and tie, and knows how to fight.  Let's hope he sticks to his guns when August 2 comes around, and calls the GOP bluff.  


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Marokai Backbeat on July 13, 2011, 07:30:13 PM


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Bacon King on July 13, 2011, 07:30:20 PM
The big highlights:

Quote
“Eric, don’t call my bluff,” the president said, warning Cantor that he would take his case “to the American people.” He told Cantor that no other president — not Ronald Reagan, the president said — would put up with the treatment he was getting from the House majority leader.

Quote
“Cantor rudely interrupted the president three times to advocate for short-term debt ceiling increases while the president was wrapping the meeting. This is just more juvenile behavior from him and Boehner needs to rein him in, and let the grown-ups get to work. “

On exiting the room, Obama reportedly said that “this confirms the totality of what the American people already believe” about Washington

Quote
But Obama said he wouldn’t do the debt-limit increase incrementally and that he would veto a short-term bill.

“That’s when he got very agitated,” Cantor told reporters.

“Obama lit him up. Cantor sat in stunned silence,” said an official in the meeting. “It was incredible. If the public saw Obama he would win in a landslide.”


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Napoleon on July 13, 2011, 07:34:36 PM
I'm concerned for Obama.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Frodo on July 13, 2011, 07:36:06 PM

Why?


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Torie on July 13, 2011, 07:59:09 PM
If Obama does not want to sign a short term measure, he can shut it all down. The GOP will not agree to tax increases without real entitlement reform, and should not, and so far, none is in the offing.  The GOP might as well shut down as a party rather than agree to tax increases that will sustain the feds spending at 24% of the GDP, rather than what the debt commission proposed, which was around 20% (as opposed to 18% now). 

I don't know what Obama's storming out accomplished.  That is hardly a way to instill confidence.

In the meantime, an article came out in the WSJ today about how if we want to leave entitlements in place, the middle class is going to have to pay more taxes - a lot more. It is either that, or increase the federal income tax rate on those earning more than $250,000 per year to something like 77%. No reputable economist thinks that it economically practicable, and of course it is not politically possible. I will start a new topic on the WSJ article.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: King on July 13, 2011, 08:00:29 PM
This reminds me of that pushover teacher back in middle school days that all the kids take advantage of and then loses his mojo by the end of the semester and starts handing out ridiculous levels of discipline completely out of character and equally as ineffective.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: ilikeverin on July 13, 2011, 08:01:11 PM
Go, Obama, go.  Take it to the American people.  Finally.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: tmthforu94 on July 13, 2011, 08:03:19 PM
Cantor has been out of line since the beginning, but Obama's only made it worse by this incident.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Holmes on July 13, 2011, 08:14:03 PM
Good. Cantor just may be the most brain dead person in Congress. I wish Obama would do this to him every day.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Bull Moose Base on July 13, 2011, 08:17:35 PM
If Obama does not want to sign a short term measure, he can shut it all down. The GOP will not agree to tax increases without real entitlement reform, and should not, and so far, none is in the offing.  The GOP might as well shut down as a party rather than agree to tax increases that will sustain the feds spending at 24% of the GDP, rather than what the debt commission proposed, which was around 20% (as opposed to 18% now). 

I don't know what Obama's storming out accomplished.  That is hardly a way to instill confidence.

In the meantime, an article came out in the WSJ today about how if we want to leave entitlements in place, the middle class is going to have to pay more taxes - a lot more. It is either that, or increase the federal income tax rate on those earning more than $250,000 per year to something like 77%. No reputable economist thinks that it economically practicable, and of course it is not politically possible. I will start a new topic on the WSJ article.


That's fine.  But then don't threaten to crash the economy.  At least McConnell has found a reason not to crash it even if it is just political damage to the GOP.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Torie on July 13, 2011, 08:22:38 PM
If Obama does not want to sign a short term measure, he can shut it all down. The GOP will not agree to tax increases without real entitlement reform, and should not, and so far, none is in the offing.  The GOP might as well shut down as a party rather than agree to tax increases that will sustain the feds spending at 24% of the GDP, rather than what the debt commission proposed, which was around 20% (as opposed to 18% now). 

I don't know what Obama's storming out accomplished.  That is hardly a way to instill confidence.

In the meantime, an article came out in the WSJ today about how if we want to leave entitlements in place, the middle class is going to have to pay more taxes - a lot more. It is either that, or increase the federal income tax rate on those earning more than $250,000 per year to something like 77%. No reputable economist thinks that it economically practicable, and of course it is not politically possible. I will start a new topic on the WSJ article.


That's fine.  But then don't threaten to crash the economy.  At least McConnell has found a reason not to crash it even if it is just political damage to the GOP.

If Obama won't agree to a short term measure given the impasse, it seems to me he is the one who will kill a debt ceiling increase, and then we can litigate how the feds will slash a third of their spending. I think Obama got pissed and lost his cool, because he realized that in the end, he has no choice but to take Cantor's medicine on this. We shall see.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Snowstalker Mk. II on July 13, 2011, 08:29:25 PM
I saw the comments; why are Politico readers so right-wing?


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: angus on July 13, 2011, 08:41:48 PM
Just heard it on the Eric Ericson talk radio show. Here's a link to a news story: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/58937.html

From what I've gathered, apparently after two hours of the talks, Obama chewed Cantor out for five minutes straight, leaving him speechless, then Obama subsequently declared he'd "take this to the American people" got out of his chair and abruptly exited, slamming the door behind him.

(edit- found better article)

out of character.  I saw the thread title and was about to post a long diatribe about how I've finally come around.  I've warmed up to the idea of a debt ceiling increase, after listening to about seven or eight non-partisan think tank talking heads.  Incremental is okay too.  (I still think serious spending cuts are in order.)

But this temper tantrum isn't helping the economy and it certainly isn't helping Obama with the swing vote crowd, especially those of us who voted for him in 2008 because we bought into his "new tone in Washington" rhetoric.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: memphis on July 13, 2011, 08:53:34 PM
Considering the abuse he's taken, he's acted like a prince. I'm not talking about comments from the public. That comes with the territory, even though FOX news famously told people it was unpatriotic to criticize president bush. The way this Congress has behaved toward Obama has been disgraceful. The GOP truly has no shame.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Keystone Phil on July 13, 2011, 09:10:41 PM
Now please keep in mind, America: it's the Republican leadership that's acting childish, not the individual that stormed out of negotiations.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Person Man on July 13, 2011, 09:13:44 PM
I don't think anyone's acting childish. Maybe someone is acting human instead of like some sort of emasculated beast. Really, though. Obama is going to be called childish after Republican lawmakers walked out on him at least twice.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: angus on July 13, 2011, 09:20:03 PM
Considering the abuse he's taken, he's acted like a prince.

A prince?!  A certain Danish prince, maybe, when he went mad upon learning that his father the king was murdered by his uncle who was his mother's lover.  But it's not the hallmark of most princes.  And it's certainly not the hallmark of a two-term president.  Obama has been using some harsh language lately.  It's not the Obama I voted for, I can tell you that.

Would Reagan act like this?  Would Clinton?  Would Dubya?  Hell no.  Reagain would smile and say, "There you go again."  Clinton would ask him to come to the oval office where a stripper would be waiting to calm his nerves.  George Bush would say, "Fu()ck you, I don't have to answer that question.  Hey, Can't-Oh, you want another line of coke?  I can get my girl Condi to bring some more if you need to chill out."  No, two termers don't act the way Obama has been doing lately.

It's disappointing.  And I'm no partisan hack.  I'm part of that narrow slice of the electorate who decides which candidate becomes President.  I voted for Clinton, Bush, and Obama.  And I can tell you that I expected more of Obama.  A lot more.  He's usually a very smooth talker.  The going gets rough sometimes.  Obama's a big boy.  He knows this.  Or he should.  There are good times, and there are bad times.  It's like a marriage.  If you want this one to last more than four years, then you better start treating me like a lady.  

Get thee to a nunnery!

That said, I will admit that I have come around to the idea that a debt-ceiling increase is in our best interest.  I assume that most Republicans, whether they'll admit it publicly or not, have as well.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Snowstalker Mk. II on July 13, 2011, 09:24:06 PM
I'd be pissed too when a party not only has half its membership considering you to be an illegitimate leader, but when that party pushes for an end to free and fair elections to instead have candidates effectively hand-picked by corporations, which stifle any effective opposition with lies and smears (if the 2004 campaign was even slightly honest, Kerry would have won unanimously), touting freedom from government but wanting a camera on every streetcorner and to execute women who want to terminate their pregnancy, and have no greater desire than to extend the fist of war to any foreign nation they please. It all comes back to corporatism. The Republican Party hasn't cared about the people since Nixon; only about getting elected and making money. Starting wars is an effective way to make money, from not only oil in Arabia but the money made from the military-industrial complex. Eisenhower warned us about the danger of an alliance between big business and the war hawks; we have ignored that warning, and it has gotten us into a worse financial situation than ever. Those who dissent are ignored by the right-wing mainstream media, or tarred as a traitor like Manning, one of the greatest heroes in the last 10 years. The party whose policies have created the greatest income gap since before the Great Depression, who have done anything possible to help get more cash into CEO's pockets while crushing unions who might lead to the CEO's personal income being 5% lower (and still several hundred times greater than their average employee), and have crippled American industry with free-trade agreements with countries with poor labor policies, allowing them to not only exploit them but take jobs from American workers, all while pushing the guise of fiscal responsibility. The modern Republican party is the most dangerous since the CPSU of the early 1960's.

"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power."

- Benito Mussolini


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Bull Moose Base on July 13, 2011, 09:31:42 PM
If Obama does not want to sign a short term measure, he can shut it all down. The GOP will not agree to tax increases without real entitlement reform, and should not, and so far, none is in the offing.  The GOP might as well shut down as a party rather than agree to tax increases that will sustain the feds spending at 24% of the GDP, rather than what the debt commission proposed, which was around 20% (as opposed to 18% now). 

I don't know what Obama's storming out accomplished.  That is hardly a way to instill confidence.

In the meantime, an article came out in the WSJ today about how if we want to leave entitlements in place, the middle class is going to have to pay more taxes - a lot more. It is either that, or increase the federal income tax rate on those earning more than $250,000 per year to something like 77%. No reputable economist thinks that it economically practicable, and of course it is not politically possible. I will start a new topic on the WSJ article.


That's fine.  But then don't threaten to crash the economy.  At least McConnell has found a reason not to crash it even if it is just political damage to the GOP.

If Obama won't agree to a short term measure given the impasse, it seems to me he is the one who will kill a debt ceiling increase, and then we can litigate how the feds will slash a third of their spending. I think Obama got pissed and lost his cool, because he realized that in the end, he has no choice but to take Cantor's medicine on this. We shall see.

Won't agree to a short-term measure because it's part of a terrible deal.  If the Republican say no taxes + give us these spending cuts or we'll tank the economy and Obama says F your threats and Republicans tank the economy, good luck with the response.  Though if this story is an indication, maybe the media will shepherd the GOP through it.  There's no story.  Sounds like Obama was concluding a meeting for the day, Cantor was being a nuisance so Obama gave him some crap, then called it a day. They're meeting tomorrow anyway.  Who gives a ?


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Marokai Backbeat on July 13, 2011, 09:41:53 PM
Now please keep in mind, America: it's the Republican leadership that's acting childish, not the individual that stormed out of negotiations.

On nearly every single contentious issue in his presidency Obama has tried to make compromising deals and include Republican support. Republicans however have tried to grand stand and block every single thing they can regardless of their past or even present opinions on the issue. Obama and the  Democrats attempted to meet the Republicans at nearly all of their requests in cuts. At one point they were offered 83% of what they wanted, basically, including cuts to Medicare and Social Security, and they turned it down, demanding even more.

Obama's been a saint to put up with the garbage month after month after month. I can hardly blame him for being exasperated.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Paul Kemp on July 13, 2011, 09:47:39 PM
Now please keep in mind, America: it's the Republican leadership that's acting childish, not the individual that stormed out of negotiations.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/top-republicans-walk-vp-bidens-debt-talks/story?id=13917319 (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/top-republicans-walk-vp-bidens-debt-talks/story?id=13917319)


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Keystone Phil on July 13, 2011, 09:58:32 PM
Now please keep in mind, America: it's the Republican leadership that's acting childish, not the individual that stormed out of negotiations.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/top-republicans-walk-vp-bidens-debt-talks/story?id=13917319 (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/top-republicans-walk-vp-bidens-debt-talks/story?id=13917319)

I'm not the one lecturing others on who is being a child and who is being an adult.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: King on July 13, 2011, 10:27:13 PM
Now please keep in mind, America: it's the Republican leadership that's acting childish, not the individual that stormed out of negotiations.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/top-republicans-walk-vp-bidens-debt-talks/story?id=13917319 (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/top-republicans-walk-vp-bidens-debt-talks/story?id=13917319)

I'm not the one lecturing others on who is being a child and who is being an adult.

... contradiction in bold.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: t_host1 on July 13, 2011, 10:38:21 PM

 I've heard it reported a couple of times that; %60+ do not want to raise the debt ceiling. It's plausible that half of those simply want to make a stand, that is, to stand on one's own two feet, as a self-sustaining society. Use what ever analogy you prefer, climb mountains , go to mars and so on...

 with such a enormous achievement to be realized, people, their abilities to recognize their position and manage it will be the test, the presidents version, as it been said here, will not be helpful. People losing it in the Rodney King scenario will only make it worse for more than necessary.

a biden moment has its merits - this is the big F'n deal



Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: anvi on July 13, 2011, 10:49:02 PM
I now positively want congress not to raise the debt ceiling.  Congress decides whether of not to raise the ceiling, and congress also tells the executive branch how much to spend on what, so the decision is theirs.  Let the president make his case to the public about whom he wants more taxes from and when and what spending he wants to cut for whom, let congress make their case to the public about what spending they want to cut for whom in exchange for no tax hikes at all on anybody, presumably ever.  Then, just let August 2nd pass, let the public see how much government spending will have to be cut in the wake of the default, and what the effects are just so nobody ever has to pay any more taxes in any form, and let the public decide what they want.  I was against a version of this idea before, but now, well, sometimes the best way to deal with a virus is to inject the virus.  If talking is doing no good, then stop talking; silence and consequences can be quite good things all by themselves.

The financial crash of 2008 was everybody's fault; it was the fault of the Fed, of politicians on both sides wanting to artificially inflate home ownership, of GSE's that crafted a mortgage investment model, of banks and Wall Street deciding to cash in by using that model, and for those Americans who bought houses that they honestly couldn't afford.  If there is a crash of 2011, it will again be everybody's fault, Dems resisting any kind of entitlement reform and need for a broader and less progressive tax base, Pubbies for their very practiced my-way-or-the-abyss negotiation tactics and worship of private-sector profit-maximization as the only worthwhile thing about life, and the American people for lining up behind them year after year after ever-more-miserable year.  I'm serious, we should honestly blame ourselves for all of this.  I certainly blame myself.  I supported Obama in '08, and in that, I was being much too naive for someone who should know better.  Not that anybody else was a better choice.  But, all I do is support politicians who I naively think can accomplish anything, and then, when they don't, sit on the sidelines and bitch in internet forums; there's no particular virtue in that at all, and it sure doesn't make me any better than any of them.  Why blame the politicians when it was we who hired them all?

So, Obama is impatient and has a temper and Cantor is a cardboard-cutout parody of himself.  That's supposed to be news to anyone?  

Well, it's not news at all.  The real news...will be coming shortly.  :P   And my only editorial on the news that's coming is that we all absolutely deserve it.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: ○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└ on July 13, 2011, 10:50:29 PM
Wait, did Obama realize that when he, sanes, and Wall Street are on the same side, it's not a good time to fold?


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: DrScholl on July 13, 2011, 10:54:13 PM
Maybe if they weren't so bent on destroying the economy to win an election, it wouldn't come to this. The opposition has to be taken to task and no real swing voter is going to object to that. Why not hold Republicans accountable? They control the House and can't pretend as if they have no part in fixing problems.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: exopolitician on July 13, 2011, 11:05:25 PM
Yes, finally someone told that weasel Cantor to eat it. Two thumbs up.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: The Dowager Mod on July 13, 2011, 11:10:42 PM
Love this quote from a staffer.
"Cantor's account of tonight's meeting is completely overblown," a House Democratic aide told HuffPost. "For someone who knows how to walk out of a meeting, you'd think he['d] know it when he saw it.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Bull Moose Base on July 13, 2011, 11:41:52 PM
I now positively want congress not to raise the debt ceiling.  Congress decides whether of not to raise the ceiling, and congress also tells the executive branch how much to spend on what, so the decision is theirs.  Let the president make his case to the public about whom he wants more taxes from and when and what spending he wants to cut for whom, let congress make their case to the public about what spending they want to cut for whom in exchange for no tax hikes at all on anybody, presumably ever.  Then, just let August 2nd pass, let the public see how much government spending will have to be cut in the wake of the default, and what the effects are just so nobody ever has to pay any more taxes in any form, and let the public decide what they want.  I was against a version of this idea before, but now, well, sometimes the best way to deal with a virus is to inject the virus.  If talking is doing no good, then stop talking; silence and consequences can be quite good things all by themselves.

The financial crash of 2008 was everybody's fault; it was the fault of the Fed, of politicians on both sides wanting to artificially inflate home ownership, of GSE's that crafted a mortgage investment model, of banks and Wall Street deciding to cash in by using that model, and for those Americans who bought houses that they honestly couldn't afford.  If there is a crash of 2011, it will again be everybody's fault, Dems resisting any kind of entitlement reform and need for a broader and less progressive tax base, Pubbies for their very practiced my-way-or-the-abyss negotiation tactics and worship of private-sector profit-maximization as the only worthwhile thing about life, and the American people for lining up behind them year after year after ever-more-miserable year.  I'm serious, we should honestly blame ourselves for all of this.  I certainly blame myself.  I supported Obama in '08, and in that, I was being much too naive for someone who should know better.  Not that anybody else was a better choice.  But, all I do is support politicians who I naively think can accomplish anything, and then, when they don't, sit on the sidelines and bitch in internet forums; there's no particular virtue in that at all, and it sure doesn't make me any better than any of them.  Why blame the politicians when it was we who hired them all?

So, Obama is impatient and has a temper and Cantor is a cardboard-cutout parody of himself.  That's supposed to be news to anyone?  

Well, it's not news at all.  The real news...will be coming shortly.  :P   And my only editorial on the news that's coming is that we all absolutely deserve it.

I agree with your conclusion about who is to blame.  We buy Chinese like we're hungry Jews on Christmas Night, then look around for someone to blame for the state of the economy.  But as for Obama, what can he possibly do here?  He's dependent on congress passing his proposals.  He proposed a plan to reduce the debt by $4 trillion and was rejected.  Who cares if he has a temper and Republicans inevitably distort their account of what happened for political advantage?  There is no equivalence between GOP and Democratic behavior here, let alone Obama who is presiding as if he were an Independent. The solution is easy.  We need the debt ceiling raised? The GOP blocks it.  We need more stimulus? The GOP blocks it.  We need effective financial regulation?  The GOP blocks it.  We need anti-global warming policy? The GOP denies its reality.  Divided government is nothing but gridlock and with this government, it's paralysis trying to get out of the way of a freight train.  So pick the less insane party and give it full control of government.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on July 13, 2011, 11:44:14 PM
Now that's a good Alan Grayson-style Democrat right there.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: J. J. on July 13, 2011, 11:48:07 PM
Awesome!  Obama finally reveals he has a spine of steel underneath his suit and tie, and knows how to fight.  Let's hope he sticks to his guns when August 2 comes around, and calls the GOP bluff. 

Yes, by cutting off Social Security.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Landslide Lyndon on July 14, 2011, 12:07:25 AM
Now please keep in mind, America: it's the Republican leadership that's acting childish, not the individual that stormed out of negotiations.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/top-republicans-walk-vp-bidens-debt-talks/story?id=13917319 (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/top-republicans-walk-vp-bidens-debt-talks/story?id=13917319)

I'm not the one lecturing others on who is being a child and who is being an adult.

... contradiction in bold.

Phil criticizing Obama for his temper is like Mel Gibson accusing Joe Lieberman for antisemitism.
 


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: anvi on July 14, 2011, 12:55:40 AM
Joementum,

Oh, I don't disagree about your point regarding no equivalence.  If Mahatma Gandhi had to negotiate with Eric Cantor, I think he'd have slammed some doors quite a while ago too.  And, as mentioned, I find the way the GOP "negotiates" completely odious.  They started out, was it in March?, telling the White House they wanted a budget deal that had an 85%-15% split in spending cuts-tax increases based on their own economic team's study, and when the White House responded with a figure of 83%-17%, the Pubbies walked out saying they wanted tax hikes entirely excluded from the budget deal, and if the Dems didn't buy it, they wouldn't raise the ceiling.  Now, if it was me, I'd obviously have been yelling and slamming doors.  But I'm bad that way.  

Now, a president who had some executive experience and carried around a pair, in an ideal world, would at that point just given Boehner a polite call and said: "by the way, John, we're done talking about tying the debt ceiling to your latest budget outlays.  I'm gonna give a national, prime-time address, tell the public about those negotiations and tell them what I think the consequences will be to them in not raising the debt ceiling, and recommend Simpson-Bowles.  You all tell the American people what you want, and otherwise, vote as you see fit.  Have a lovely day, and please say hi to the Mrs."  If they want the country to go into default and wreak havoc on the country over not being able to haggle over 2% of tax revenues over the next ten years, out-years during which the recession will have continued to wane, mind you, then I'd let them--they're Congress and it's their decision, and for their decision, they're answerable, just like the president is.  The cynical and nihilistic GOP "negotiation" tactics work because the president lets them work, and that's a failure of leadership.  Late might be better than never, of course, but knowing what one is doing is better than not knowing what one is doing.  But, this is all, of course, wishful thinking.  Like I said, I couldn't be that ideal, I'm unfortunately rather prone to fits myself.

Now, having said all that, the Dems really do have to get themselves unstuck from some of their sacred cows too.  Entitlements really are facing a crisis on a massive scale, and if we can't broaden our tax base to generate more revenue than comes from just trying to "soak the rich," especially in a downturn, or if we can't restructure the programs both more fairly and in such a way that they cost less, or, what would be the best solution, if they can't agree on ways to actually control health care cost inflation in this country, we absolutely are going to be in very deep trouble soon.  The fact that some Dems in Congress and many in the liberal media don't acknowledge that is really irresponsible.  


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Keystone Phil on July 14, 2011, 12:56:53 AM
Now please keep in mind, America: it's the Republican leadership that's acting childish, not the individual that stormed out of negotiations.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/top-republicans-walk-vp-bidens-debt-talks/story?id=13917319 (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/top-republicans-walk-vp-bidens-debt-talks/story?id=13917319)

I'm not the one lecturing others on who is being a child and who is being an adult.

... contradiction in bold.

Not a contradiction at all. I never said Obama or Republicans aren't acting like children. However, the former and his devout followers are lecturing the latter for acting like children when they're just as guilty.


Phil criticizing Obama for his temper is like Mel Gibson accusing Joe Lieberman for antisemitism.
 

And didn't you recently mock someone for having to pay for sex? Or was it you complaining about fats? I don't think you want to pull a "pot calling the kettle black" line on anyone, my friend.

Another newsflash: you don't know me. You don't know my temperament. I know it's funny to think that I'm thrown into a red faced, steam-out-the-ears rant every time I have to address the idiocy you try to pass off as a legitimate point but it isn't accurate.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on July 14, 2011, 12:59:28 AM
I suppose it is worth noting that Phil didn't get too angry or outraged when I prank called him.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Keystone Phil on July 14, 2011, 01:05:26 AM
I suppose it is worth noting that Phil didn't get too angry or outraged when I prank called him.

I vaguely remember this!


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Landslide Lyndon on July 14, 2011, 01:10:08 AM

Phil criticizing Obama for his temper is like Mel Gibson accusing Joe Lieberman for antisemitism.
 

And didn't you recently mock someone for having to pay for sex? Or was it you complaining about fats? I don't think you want to pull a "pot calling the kettle black" line on anyone, my friend.


???

As for your temper, everyone here agrees that it's pretty volatile in this forum. If you are a meek person in real life then good for you. 



Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Keystone Phil on July 14, 2011, 01:13:34 AM

Phil criticizing Obama for his temper is like Mel Gibson accusing Joe Lieberman for antisemitism.
 

And didn't you recently mock someone for having to pay for sex? Or was it you complaining about fats? I don't think you want to pull a "pot calling the kettle black" line on anyone, my friend.


???

As for your temper, everyone here agrees that it's pretty volatile in this forum. If you are a meek person in real life then good for you. 



Again, my posts don't give away anything about my temper . The only thing that would possibly hint at a bad temper would be excessive foul language, lots of bolding and exclamation points, etc.

Also, please tone down the rhetoric just a tad. "Everyone" agrees with you about my temper? Incorrect, sir.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Landslide Lyndon on July 14, 2011, 01:25:55 AM

Phil criticizing Obama for his temper is like Mel Gibson accusing Joe Lieberman for antisemitism.
 

And didn't you recently mock someone for having to pay for sex? Or was it you complaining about fats? I don't think you want to pull a "pot calling the kettle black" line on anyone, my friend.


???

As for your temper, everyone here agrees that it's pretty volatile in this forum. If you are a meek person in real life then good for you. 



Again, my posts don't give away anything about my temper . The only thing that would possibly hint at a bad temper would be excessive foul language, lots of bolding and exclamation points, etc.

Also, please tone down the rhetoric just a tad. "Everyone" agrees with you about my temper? Incorrect, sir.

All right, not all but many people have accused you of throwing temper tantrums and personal attacks when, for example, somebody says something bad about Santorum. Badger was the last one, IIRC, who pointed that out.
I know that the anonymity of the "internets" can change somebody's character, so again if you are nothing like that IRL then good for you.

And when the hell did I write the things you said about?


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Grumpier Than Uncle Joe on July 14, 2011, 08:31:47 AM
I'm glad Palin chimed in here........all is well now, people. (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/58946.html)


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: memphis on July 14, 2011, 08:38:27 AM
I'm glad Palin chimed in here........all is well now, people. (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/58946.html)

Still using gun metaphors? She deserves every bit of criticism she gets when tragedy strikes.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Grumpier Than Uncle Joe on July 14, 2011, 08:56:08 AM
I'm glad Palin chimed in here........all is well now, people. (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/58946.html)

Still using gun metaphors? She deserves every bit of criticism she gets when tragedy strikes.

Lock and Load is her motto, memphis........I wonder if her website has a target on the White House?


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Keystone Phil on July 14, 2011, 10:53:15 AM

All right, not all but many people have accused you of throwing temper tantrums and personal attacks when, for example, somebody says something bad about Santorum. Badger was the last one, IIRC, who pointed that out.

No, I don't. In fact, this example makes the least sense. If I threw a fit or hurled personal insults when someone said something bad about Santorum, that would make up about 75% of my posts.

And just because Badger pointed something out - just like you're doing now - doesn't make it true. And for you to lecture anyone about tone is pretty amusing.

Quote
And when the hell did I write the things you said about?

Not sure about the paying for sex thing but I'm pretty sure you complained about fats in the "Hot Girls Thread."


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Landslide Lyndon on July 14, 2011, 11:02:16 AM

All right, not all but many people have accused you of throwing temper tantrums and personal attacks when, for example, somebody says something bad about Santorum. Badger was the last one, IIRC, who pointed that out.

No, I don't. In fact, this example makes the least sense. If I threw a fit or hurled personal insults when someone said something bad about Santorum, that would make up about 75% of my posts.

And just because Badger pointed something out - just like you're doing now - doesn't make it true. And for you to lecture anyone about tone is pretty amusing.


I don't lecture you because I'm indeed the last person to do something like that. I just pointed out something.

And in the Hot Girls Thread I defended some guys who posted chubby girls when Lief said that they were "ruining the thread with the fats".


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Zarn on July 14, 2011, 11:07:42 AM
http://www.gallup.com/poll/148454/Debt-Ceiling-Increase-Remains-Unpopular-Americans.aspx

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article/562535/201102081909/Nyet-On-Debt.aspx

Mr. president, please make this an issue with the American people. Just make sure you listen, rather than tell them what you want them to think.

Even Gallup cannot hide how unpopular it is, the same pollster that highly off in the presidential race last go around.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Keystone Phil on July 14, 2011, 11:13:13 AM


I don't lecture you because I'm indeed the last person to do something like that. I just pointed out something.

Well, again, you're not really pointing out anything.

Quote
And in the Hot Girls Thread I defended some guys who posted chubby girls when Lief said that they were "ruining the thread with the fats".

Hmmm...I must be thinking of something else then. I remember the paying for sex example though: I believe opebo pointed out that, as a hedonist, you frequent prostitutes.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Landslide Lyndon on July 14, 2011, 11:15:48 AM

Quote
And in the Hot Girls Thread I defended some guys who posted chubby girls when Lief said that they were "ruining the thread with the fats".

Hmmm...I must be thinking of something else then. I remember the paying for sex example though: I believe opebo pointed out that, as a hedonist, you frequent prostitutes.

I criticized opebo for his preference of women that look like underage boys, not for the fact that he frequents prostitutes.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Keystone Phil on July 14, 2011, 11:18:12 AM

Quote
And in the Hot Girls Thread I defended some guys who posted chubby girls when Lief said that they were "ruining the thread with the fats".

Hmmm...I must be thinking of something else then. I remember the paying for sex example though: I believe opebo pointed out that, as a hedonist, you frequent prostitutes.

I criticized opebo for his preference of women that look like underage boys, not for the fact that he frequents prostitutes.

But you made a joke about someone else having to pay for sex in another thread.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Landslide Lyndon on July 14, 2011, 11:21:21 AM

Quote
And in the Hot Girls Thread I defended some guys who posted chubby girls when Lief said that they were "ruining the thread with the fats".

Hmmm...I must be thinking of something else then. I remember the paying for sex example though: I believe opebo pointed out that, as a hedonist, you frequent prostitutes.

I criticized opebo for his preference of women that look like underage boys, not for the fact that he frequents prostitutes.

But you made a joke about someone else having to pay for sex in another thread.

Can you PM the actual quote? I think we hijacked this thread long enough.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Zarn on July 14, 2011, 11:23:08 AM
This is a discussion about the debt ceiling, not opebo's preference in women.

Although, I was just laughing hysterically, because I accidentally typed opebo's name wrong and it would not have been really flattering to opebo.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Bull Moose Base on July 14, 2011, 11:39:14 AM
http://www.gallup.com/poll/148454/Debt-Ceiling-Increase-Remains-Unpopular-Americans.aspx

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article/562535/201102081909/Nyet-On-Debt.aspx

Mr. president, please make this an issue with the American people. Just make sure you listen, rather than tell them what you want them to think.

Even Gallup cannot hide how unpopular it is, the same pollster that highly off in the presidential race last go around.

Nope.  Tell them what to think because people (understandably) have no idea what the debt ceiling is or what will happen if it's not raised.  Better than listening to them say "Don't you dare raise the debt ceiling" and then in a month listening to them rant about "Why the f didn't you raise the debt ceiling?!"


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Zarn on July 14, 2011, 11:43:30 AM
http://www.gallup.com/poll/148454/Debt-Ceiling-Increase-Remains-Unpopular-Americans.aspx

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article/562535/201102081909/Nyet-On-Debt.aspx

Mr. president, please make this an issue with the American people. Just make sure you listen, rather than tell them what you want them to think.

Even Gallup cannot hide how unpopular it is, the same pollster that highly off in the presidential race last go around.

Nope.  Tell them what to think because people (understandably) have no idea what the debt ceiling is or what will happen if it's not raised.  Better than listening to them say "Don't you dare raise the debt ceiling" and then in a month listening to them rant about "Why the f didn't you raise the debt ceiling?!"

Left-wing in a nut-shell, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for being stereotypical.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Grumpier Than Uncle Joe on July 14, 2011, 11:54:53 AM
They're meeting again today......it will be interesting to read about the tone.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Grumpier Than Uncle Joe on July 14, 2011, 12:30:08 PM
Reid says Cantor should be kicked out of the talks.........I agree, let Boner handle it. (http://news.yahoo.com/reid-cantor-not-debt-limit-talks-140004596.html)


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Landslide Lyndon on July 14, 2011, 12:48:15 PM
Reid says Cantor should be kicked out of the talks.........I agree, let Boner handle it. (http://news.yahoo.com/reid-cantor-not-debt-limit-talks-140004596.html)

Boner doesn't control his caucus, Cantor does.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Skill and Chance on July 14, 2011, 01:13:00 PM
Could you imagine this situation happening in reverse with Nancy Pelosi and House democrats threatening to force a default and shut the government down unless the republican president and senate agree to reinstate the top marginal tax rates of the 1950's?  Yeah, I can't either.  The outcry from the right would be absolutely deafening.  Where is that outcry from the center-left today?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/ScONJR3ThMI/AAAAAAAAJgA/jlV_wmAhNKU/s1600-h/tax.bmp


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Marokai Backbeat on July 14, 2011, 02:05:13 PM
http://www.gallup.com/poll/148454/Debt-Ceiling-Increase-Remains-Unpopular-Americans.aspx

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article/562535/201102081909/Nyet-On-Debt.aspx

Mr. president, please make this an issue with the American people. Just make sure you listen, rather than tell them what you want them to think.

Even Gallup cannot hide how unpopular it is, the same pollster that highly off in the presidential race last go around.

Nope.  Tell them what to think because people (understandably) have no idea what the debt ceiling is or what will happen if it's not raised.  Better than listening to them say "Don't you dare raise the debt ceiling" and then in a month listening to them rant about "Why the f didn't you raise the debt ceiling?!"

Left-wing in a nut-shell, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for being stereotypical.

It's ridiculous to try and be faux populist about this and act all offended when someone tells you what is factually correct.

The debt ceiling increase can be as unpopular as all get-out, but that doesn't change the fact that it must be raised. There's no getting around this. Even under the craziest of budgets, even under the Republicans' own budget, it must be raised. That's because raising the debt ceiling has nothing to do with more spending, it has to do with committments that have already been made, money that has already been spent.

Leadership is not about bending to the fickle whims of the public whenever the wind starts to blow in one direction or another, it's about doing the right thing and doing what has to be done. This is practically housekeeping, it's a routine issue that rarely generated much to-do in the past. It shouldn't be an issue because it's a basic necessity and something that has to be raised (no matter what) unless we want a world economic crash.

Also, if you want to play up to the fickle whims of the public just remember it can be used against you just as quickly. Since you're all about "the people" I guess you're totally cool with additional taxes on the wealthy, since that has widespread public support..


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Fmr. Pres. Duke on July 14, 2011, 02:11:04 PM
Unless we want our credit rating cut, default on our loans and see our stock market tumble 1500 points, we will raise the debt limit. This isn't the time to play politics, and while raising it is unpopular, most of the public doesn't understand what is at stake.

We raise it now, cut spending and perhaps raise taxes on the upper income brackets. We shouldn't raise them on the midde class because frankly, they are hurting enough and lack any disposable income to speak of. Either way, we have to reign in our spending and debt or we will be in serious trouble.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Marokai Backbeat on July 14, 2011, 02:15:38 PM
Unless we want our credit rating cut, default on our loans and see our stock market tumble 1500 points, we will raise the debt limit. This isn't the time to play politics, and while raising it is unpopular, most of the public doesn't understand what is at stake.

So when did you turn into a leftist and start hating 'the people'?


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Fmr. Pres. Duke on July 14, 2011, 02:19:06 PM
Unless we want our credit rating cut, default on our loans and see our stock market tumble 1500 points, we will raise the debt limit. This isn't the time to play politics, and while raising it is unpopular, most of the public doesn't understand what is at stake.

So when did you turn into a leftist and start hating 'the people'?

I've always hated the people, Marokai. You didn't know that? ;)

As for being a leftist, this is more common sense than anything. If we can stop trying to put politics and ideology over it and study a little economics, more of the public would be in favor of raising the limit. it must be done! For the good of the people.

How's that for a little populism? :P


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: bullmoose88 on July 14, 2011, 02:34:48 PM
Five pages in, and this hasn't been posted yet?

()

I find your lack of GIS skills...

...disturbing.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Grumpier Than Uncle Joe on July 14, 2011, 02:36:03 PM
GIS, bm?


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: bullmoose88 on July 14, 2011, 02:38:32 PM

Google Image Search...you know, the service you like to use when you're looking up your high school buddies, Sabre-tooth tiger and Mammoth.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Grumpier Than Uncle Joe on July 14, 2011, 02:39:36 PM

Google Image Search...you know, the service you like to use when you're looking up your high school buddies, Sabre-tooth tiger and Mammoth.

Ah, I just used it to look up bm..........ick.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: bullmoose88 on July 14, 2011, 02:41:52 PM

Google Image Search...you know, the service you like to use when you're looking up your high school buddies, Sabre-tooth tiger and Mammoth.

Ah, I just used it to look up bm..........ick.

You know I just float around...some days I sink to the bottom.  Other days I'm all in pieces and am just a huge mess.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on July 14, 2011, 06:23:18 PM
Reid says Cantor should be kicked out of the talks.........I agree, let Boner handle it. (http://news.yahoo.com/reid-cantor-not-debt-limit-talks-140004596.html)

Boner doesn't control his caucus, Cantor does.

But it might be possible to make a deal with Boner's caucus.  Cantor's caucus thinks compromise is for wimps.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Joe Republic on July 14, 2011, 06:24:01 PM
Let's try that again.

Five pages in, and this hasn't been posted yet?:

()



If this img link dies too, so help me I'll exit this thread the same way.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Bull Moose Base on July 14, 2011, 06:25:38 PM
Anyone else think the McConnell escape hatch will pass and then the country immediately forgets this whole thing happened?


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: King on July 14, 2011, 06:33:12 PM
Let's try that again.

Five pages in, and this hasn't been posted yet?:

()

If this img link dies too, so help me I'll exit this thread the same way.

I agree, the federal government upgrading to Photobucket Pro would help the debt substantially.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: Joe Republic on July 15, 2011, 02:06:22 AM
I give up.  Selfish image hosts need to DITH.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: bullmoose88 on July 15, 2011, 02:10:43 AM
I give up.  Selfish image hosts need to DITH.

It did work briefly.  I swear.


Title: Re: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks
Post by: opebo on July 15, 2011, 09:18:20 AM
... It is either that, or increase the federal income tax rate on those earning more than $250,000 per year to something like 77%. No reputable economist thinks that it economically practicable, and of course it is not politically possible.

How is something that worked great for 50-60 years of the nation's history not 'economically practicable', Torie?

Of course ultimately the only way the country has any decent economic future is to raise those riches taxes back to 70% plus - all our problems date clearly to when Reagan lowered that rate.